ETD...
Okay, I keep trying to respond, but thinking what I'm saying isn't coming out nicely. So I keep deleting it.
Amanda, I agree we need to be nice in how we say things, for sure. Katie, I know what emotional place you are coming from, so I feel like I can see your post for what it is and I don't think you meant to make anyone feel badly. Sleep is a very charged topic so it's natural to have some strong feelings.
No, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad. I typed out what I wanted to say and left it for 20 minutes then came back and changed a lot of it to be nicer. Sorry if it didn't come out right still.
Sleep is hard. REALLY hard. It's a LOT harder for some kids/families then others. I've tried things I've regretted with my first and the people who have said it to me like it is are the ones that have helped me continue to parent my ideals as best I can when I'm not at my best.
Also, I'm pretty sure CIO destroys their magical baby sparkles. Then, they will be dead-eyed zombies. Seriously, look it up. And since I'm vax'ing Jasper, he has very few sparkles left. I can't risk losing any to CIO. 
I don't let Conner CIO. However, if I KNOW he's tired, I will put him in his crib. It'll take him a solid 10 minutes of being pissed off and crying to finally calm down and sleep. HOWEVER, once again, nothing being in black and white, my child WILL NOT let anyone put him to sleep. He absolutely HAS to be alone. If he cries longer than 10 minutes, I will go in there, pick him up, let him know I love him, kiss him, rock him, wait for him to calm down, then try again. That usually does the trick.
Sometimes, like on days when I'm gone before he wakes up and home after he's asleep, I WISH he'd let me snuggle him. I would love a snuggly baby... Sometimes. I'd just like to hold him while he sleeps and get some time with him, even if he isn't awake to enjoy it. On the other hand, I appreciate having an independent guy that can do what he's gotta do on his own.
I, personally, could not handle listening to him scream for hours (Or even longer than 10 minutes). It makes me feel bad for him and it tells me (Being HIS mom) that it's something other than being tired that's bothering him... Even if it is just him needing to be hugged by his mama.
To each is their own. Even if I don't agree with it, it's your life and you get to make your own big girl decisions. I know it drives my mom crazy that I let Conner cry/fuss for a few minutes before falling asleep. She considers THAT CIO. I literally have to hold the door closed sometimes when she's here to stop her from bothering him.
Different subject... Speaking of sleeping... My son has been asleep since 430 this afternoon... 3 hours ago... It's now officially past his normal "bedtime". I'm worried that he's going to be up at like, 4. LOL He usually sleeps until 7. Merrr. I hope falling asleep 3 hours early (When he takes his normal, 45-minute afternoon nap) doesn't make him wake up 3 hours earlier. Cross your fingers for me, ladies! LOL
So when I said what I did about Ferber I was assuming you all understood that he doesn't advocate leaving children to scream all night long. His book is highly useful in understanding the mechanics and research of sleep, (even if one does not decide to follow the plan outlined in it). Heck, he even writes about how to accommodate his method for co-sleeping.
When I read the research that links damage in babies to stress I don't see that it puts a quantity on the amount of crying that can be damaging. So obviously that's open to interpretation. And obviously we have some very different interpretations.
However, I'm pretty sure the term CIO in general (and here on Mothering) encompasses more then just toss the baby in the crib, lock the door from the outside, and come back 12 hours later.
I'm kind of wondering... those of you who won't let your child cry for even 10 minutes, what do you do when you're driving down the highway and LO starts crying in the back seat? I'm assuming it sometimes takes you a few minutes to find a safe place to pull over.
Or what if you're cooking and have a pan of hot food in your hands, and no place to put it down quickly? (This last might be a Northeastern US problem... we tend to have older houses, smaller kitchens and less counter space.)
Or what if you're in the shower? As someone who has personally fallen and hit my head in the bathroom, trying to get out of the bath too quickly, I move slowly and cautiously around slippery surfaces these days.
Is the crying-baby-brain-damage only caused when you *could* respond faster to the baby and choose not to? If so, how does the baby know your intentions? Is a puzzlement.
I don't mean to start a debate here but there isn't any good, peer-reviewed research that shows that leaving a baby to cry causes brain damage. First, because research rarely, RARELY shows causation.
This is from a blog but it does link to good research: http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2010/05/does-oliver-james-damage-brain.html
And this is from actual research: http://www.mcri.edu.au/news/2010/march/'controlled-crying'.aspx
I think that incessant crying and profound neglect obviously have a negative impact on development. I don't think that CIO in and of itself damages a child's brain to any measurable extent (otherwise, like I said, there would be research showing that. Peer-reviewed, legitimate research.) There *may* be other effects on attachment, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it is brain damaging. There are reasons not to practice CIO but brain damage is not one of them.
Looking at these links, the first one talks about the effects of cortisol, not crying per-se, and concludes that a mother is a better judge of whether or not a baby is stressed. Obviously one person's baby is going to lay there and go "eh-eh" for 10 minutes, and another is going to pop blood vessels in a minute flat. So crying (for 2 or 5, or 10, or 60 minutes) COULD cause harmful cortisol levels for some babies. I've had one of those babies.
The second link lacks a useful control group. It's comparing controlled crying (again, no time amount specified) to children with sleep problems that received NO intervention. Obviously sleep problems are potentially damaging as well. So I don't see how the study can claim to apply to ALL children. Perhaps children with sleep problems who received OTHER interventions fared better. We don't know.
When I talk about CIO this is what I'm picturing in my head http://www.babycenter.com/0_baby-sleep-training-cry-it-out-methods_1497112.bc?page=2, in addition to pure abandonment for the night.
This link is also more recent then both of those: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out
Yeah, it's called the Ferber method. And it's still CIO.
There are other methods, too. No cry sleep solution is one.
I would also like to mention that, like Nicole said, some babies fuss a little before falling asleep. Dylan does that sometimes. Sometimes he all-out cries in the carrier before falling asleep. That is IN THE CARRIER. That is also still crying! If that is "causing brain damage" well, then, we're all screwed.
Well, my personal feelings are that it's possible to find a nice way to say everything, especially to new moms who are struggling.
Honestly, I think my PPD/A has made me more sensitive about these types of controversial subjects. I don't think it does ANYBODY any good to make harsh generalizations based on opinions. ESPECIALLY those of us who are prone to anxiety. And, I have to say, as someone with a degree in child development and psychology, there are A LOT of ways to parent and there are A LOT of ways to screw up a kid, too. But to insinuate that AP is the only way to end up with attached, confident children is absolutely false.
I'm kind of wondering... those of you who won't let your child cry for even 10 minutes, what do you do when you're driving down the highway and LO starts crying in the back seat? I'm assuming it sometimes takes you a few minutes to find a safe place to pull over.
Or what if you're cooking and have a pan of hot food in your hands, and no place to put it down quickly? (This last might be a Northeastern US problem... we tend to have older houses, smaller kitchens and less counter space.)
Or what if you're in the shower? As someone who has personally fallen and hit my head in the bathroom, trying to get out of the bath too quickly, I move slowly and cautiously around slippery surfaces these days.
Is the crying-baby-brain-damage only caused when you *could* respond faster to the baby and choose not to? If so, how does the baby know your intentions? Is a puzzlement.
I was thinking about this as well, and I think this is where the crying = bad all the time logic falls apart for me. Let's be serious, you know? Some crying here or there, even all-out SCREAMING in the car, in the crib, in the carrier, in the pack & play is not going to turn our kids into sociopaths. Neither is daycare or having a mom who works out of the home. Neither is formula or sleep training. Let's cut each other some slack. I'm totally crunchy and I align with AP but that does not mean that it is the right fit for everyone, everywhere.
I'm kind of wondering... those of you who won't let your child cry for even 10 minutes, what do you do when you're driving down the highway and LO starts crying in the back seat? I'm assuming it sometimes takes you a few minutes to find a safe place to pull over.
Or what if you're cooking and have a pan of hot food in your hands, and no place to put it down quickly? (This last might be a Northeastern US problem... we tend to have older houses, smaller kitchens and less counter space.)
Or what if you're in the shower? As someone who has personally fallen and hit my head in the bathroom, trying to get out of the bath too quickly, I move slowly and cautiously around slippery surfaces these days.
Is the crying-baby-brain-damage only caused when you *could* respond faster to the baby and choose not to? If so, how does the baby know your intentions? Is a puzzlement.
I never said my baby didn't cry. I don't intentionally create scenarios for her to cry. I try to minimize the scenarios where she does cry.
Car: I rarely drive by myself. If DH is driving I sit next to her and talk to her, and hold her hand and stroke her head. If I am driving I help her use a pacifier, I hold her hand, I sing a song. Before we go I try to make sure she's well fed, clean and warm so that she's less likely to scream. My first daughter I nursed in the carseat for 15 months of her life.
Cooking: I do it one handed, or with baby on my back, or before she wakes up from a nap. I always have a place to put hot food cleared on my oven because if I walked around with one I'd probably drop it on someones heads.
Shower:I try to shower when DH is home, or when she is asleep. Sometimes she cries while DH holds her, but at least she's still got human contact and he keeps her calmer then when she's alone. Sometimes she cries and I'm the only one here. Depending on my shower and her intensity, I might jump right out and get her calmed down, or I might finish up as quickly as I can. My tub has a non-slick bottom and we put towels on the floor so the kids don't slip, it's highly unlikely I would be more apt to fall then if I was coming from any other room in the house.
The research doesn't specify what kind of stress causes damage. I'm going to assume all stress, all crying and do my best to prevent it all.
Looking at these links, the first one talks about the effects of cortisol, not crying per-se, and concludes that a mother is a better judge of whether or not a baby is stressed. Obviously one person's baby is going to lay there and go "eh-eh" for 10 minutes, and another is going to pop blood vessels in a minute flat. So crying (for 2 or 5, or 10, or 60 minutes) COULD cause harmful cortisol levels for some babies. I've had one of those babies.
The second link lacks a useful control group. It's comparing controlled crying (again, no time amount specified) to children with sleep problems that received NO intervention. Obviously sleep problems are potentially damaging as well. So I don't see how the study can claim to apply to ALL children. Perhaps children with sleep problems who received OTHER interventions fared better. We don't know.
When I talk about CIO this is what I'm picturing in my head http://www.babycenter.com/0_baby-sleep-training-cry-it-out-methods_1497112.bc?page=2, in addition to pure abandonment for the night.
This link is also more recent then both of those: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out
Thank you for a more recent link.
It would take a lot of time to get to the studies mentioned in that article, but I will see if I can get to it.
There are other methods, too. No cry sleep solution is one.
I would also like to mention that, like Nicole said, some babies fuss a little before falling asleep. Dylan does that sometimes. Sometimes he all-out cries in the carrier before falling asleep. That is IN THE CARRIER. That is also still crying! If that is "causing brain damage" well, then, we're all screwed.
Honestly, I think my PPD/A has made me more sensitive about these types of controversial subjects. I don't think it does ANYBODY any good to make harsh generalizations based on opinions. ESPECIALLY those of us who are prone to anxiety. And, I have to say, as someone with a degree in child development and psychology, there are A LOT of ways to parent and there are A LOT of ways to screw up a kid, too. But to insinuate that AP is the only way to end up with attached, confident children is absolutely false.
I was thinking about this as well, and I think this is where the crying = bad all the time logic falls apart for me. Let's be serious, you know? Some crying here or there, even all-out SCREAMING in the car, in the crib, in the carrier, in the pack & play is not going to turn our kids into sociopaths. Neither is daycare or having a mom who works out of the home. Neither is formula or sleep training. Let's cut each other some slack. I'm totally crunchy and I align with AP but that does not mean that it is the right fit for everyone, everywhere.
No one is saying crying for a few minutes is going to turn a baby into a sociopath. What we are saying is that it looks like stress is a factor in increased attachment and anxiety issues.
Last time I checked, Mothering was an AP forum.
Last time I checked no one said anyone here was a bad parent or going to screw up their children and doom them to life as a vegetable, but rather sharing their reasons for choosing not to practice CIO.
ETA: I also have a degree in Psychology with an emphasis on human development.
Anyway, I'm probably going to drop out of the DDC, because I'm trying to cut back on all my internet use and I can't seem to keep up with you all in posting frequently and the last few conversations I've had time to be in here I've just been offending people. I've been thinking about it for a while and the fact that I got all into this instead of making dinner seems like a pretty good sign it's time for me to go.
No one is saying crying for a few minutes is going to turn a baby into a sociopath. What we are saying is that it looks like stress is a factor in increased attachment and anxiety issues.
Last time I checked, Mothering was an AP forum.
Last time I checked no one said anyone here was a bad parent or going to screw up their children and doom them to life as a vegetable, but rather sharing their reasons for choosing not to practice CIO.
ETA: I also have a degree in Psychology with an emphasis on human development.
Sure. It was hyperbole.
ETA: I was exaggerating to show that it's not that big of a deal. Not all AP kids are going to be confident and secure. Not all non-AP kids are going to be insecure, anxious, troubled kids.
I just find that, like I mentioned previously, it gets very black and white. We're all doing our best. Mothering is a natural parenting forum. That can mean a lot of things for a lot of people, and everyone is doing what they feel is best for their children and their family.
I absolutely did take issue with the idea that crying causes brain damage. I can't even unpack all of the issues with that type of thinking, though I mentioned a few. I trust that Abra didn't truly mean it as it reads, but the way it comes across can be quite damaging to some mothers here. I was trying to bring some moderation to the discussion.
Anyway, I'm probably going to drop out of the DDC, because I'm trying to cut back on all my internet use and I can't seem to keep up with you all in posting frequently and the last few conversations I've had time to be in here I've just been offending people. I've been thinking about it for a while and the fact that I got all into this instead of making dinner seems like a pretty good sign it's time for me to go.
I hope you don't drop out! I just read through this discussion, and I didn't interpret your comments at all with any offense. I can tell you feel strongly about parenting your baby in the gentlest way you can, and I think it is admirable. Your daughter is a very, very lucky girl. And I think that the fact you typed your comments rather than get dinner ready shows how committed you are to sharing your feelings on the subject.
Sounds like you feel you need to drop out because people questioned or disagreed with you?? I'm sure that families with multiple kids have to deal with more disagreement than that in a single dinner hour! :)
I was a little concerned about some of the things you said in your response to me, though... adjusting a pacifier or holding your baby's hand while driving? You're in the front seat and the baby's car seat is in the back seat, right? Sounds uncomfortably close to "distracted driving" to me. :( When my daughter is in the car, I take special care to keep both hands on the wheel and my eyes on the road at all times. I don't even play the radio.
Also, I know there are other people in this DDC who cook while babywearing... can you explain to me how that's done safely? My spouse is the cook in our home, but I guess I'm pretty paranoid about keeping the baby away from the hot stove and any possible spattering liquids. (We're lucky enough to have my mom around - although she has a disability, she can watch the baby long enough that my spouse can get dinner made. I feel for those of you who don't have that option!!)
Not because people disagree with me, because I get drawn in by the discussion to a level that I find distracting. I like debate and discussion because it helps me see more ways of being. The condition of my house and children doesn't.
My car is small, she can see me from her seat. Reaching back to touch my daughter isn't any more difficult then reaching for directions, or handing my older kids a snack. I honestly don't drive that often, maybe 2-3 times a month because I only go out alone when I'm confident all three of my children will be able to cope decently enough with where ever we are going. I have found that the distraction of letting a baby cry until I can get off the road is worse for me than reaching back to her.
Before my babies get grabby I cook with them all tucked into the Moby, they are well insulated and protected. Once they start grabbing for things I put them on my back in the Ergo.
We can't say that CIO DOESN'T cause brain damage/damage/negative effects, because there hasn't been a study done with a proper control group. The research that has been done indicates that it is a possibility.
ETA: It's also one thing to deny practicing CIO, when one actually is doing so, and another to say, "I feel this is better for our family because of ______(less crying overall/personal coping abilities/work schedule and sleep needs/baby seems happier/whatever works for you).
My all time favorite infant sleep book is No Cry Sleep Solution. For older kids I like Sleepless in America. Although there are things in both that I would not personally try in my family.
I'm kind of wondering... those of you who won't let your child cry for even 10 minutes, what do you do when you're driving down the highway and LO starts crying in the back seat? I'm assuming it sometimes takes you a few minutes to find a safe place to pull over.
Or what if you're cooking and have a pan of hot food in your hands, and no place to put it down quickly? (This last might be a Northeastern US problem... we tend to have older houses, smaller kitchens and less counter space.)
Or what if you're in the shower? As someone who has personally fallen and hit my head in the bathroom, trying to get out of the bath too quickly, I move slowly and cautiously around slippery surfaces these days.
Is the crying-baby-brain-damage only caused when you *could* respond faster to the baby and choose not to? If so, how does the baby know your intentions? Is a puzzlement.
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