I do appreciate different points of view and other parenting styles. I like hearing what works for others and what their thoughts are regarding specific parenting practices. I do hope, though, that we can continue discussing controversial topics without the passive-aggressive hurtful words. Describing the situation of another mother and then referring to it in a negative way is, I think, completely out of line. I am also personally bothered by opinions stated as if they were fact, when there is nothing to back it up. We can share feelings, opinions, and personal experiences but we all have to realize that doesn't make it true for everyone. Maybe I am alone in thinking that, but I do think that it is extremely harmful to others if we just start acting like everything we read is fact. I guess you could say it's a pet peeve.
I also personally feel like we are living in this time and society, we have evolved to THIS level of thinking, and science is a part of that. We have evolved as humans to be able to understand our actions. Research and being able to find correlations between things is a part of that. And we have discovered what is good research vs. what is bad research. We are raising our babies in this society, not in a tribal village. I also find it pretty silly to only use "science" or seemingly scientific studies to prove the points that we like. I think that has been done in the past in some of our discussions, so to then say that all science and research is faulty is a pretty heavy double-standard...
I am also curious about if there is really a difference between instances of intense crying in the car vs CIO for sleep. I am unsure if the baby can even hear the caregiver's voice or if they are affected by the soft touch when in those intense moments. Dylan can get pretty worked up in the car. He is generally a really great passenger, so it has only happened a couple of times, but he goes from 0-60 pretty quickly. There is nothing- no song, no touch, no pacifier or toy- that works in those instances. It doesn't even begin to touch his emotion. Luckily we have never taken him on a long trip- we are usually just jaunting around town so nothing takes longer than 20 minutes and he is certainly not crying that whole time- it's usually towards the end as we reach our destination. It's also pretty difficult to pull over when driving in the city, but we have done it when it can be achieved safely. But my point is, touch and words don't seem to calm him down once he gets worked up like that. So at least on the surface, it seems to me that such an episode is similar to what people think of with CIO. Also, he is crying no matter what so those stress hormones are being released even if I am there to comfort him. It's the stress level that is of concern here, so I really don't think we can make distinctions between different crying episodes- even when in caregivers' arms- without empirical evidence. If anyone has evidence from reputable sources, I'd love to see it as I am trying to work this out in my own mind. I tend to believe that we can't avoid all stressful situations for our little ones, though we can certainly try, but a lot of love goes a long way in making them secure.
That being said, I also want to play devil's advocate and say that the Ferber method (going in and reassuring after certain blocks of time) seems a lot like a carseat situation to me. There is parental reassurance and presence.
I am still not personally comfortable with having my baby cry when I can intervene. That is my choice, though, and it works for my family since I am a SAHM (actually WAHM) and can be here for them. That doesn't make my parenting inherently better than anyone else's, it is just what feels right to me. I am just trying to highlight where I see some possible failures in logic. I want my baby to cry as little as possible and that is for a lot of reasons but mostly because I feel terrible for him and I also feel pretty awful myself when he is crying!
And Paigekitten, I have to respond to a few things you said to Joanie. First, I would be pretty offended if you did the same to me and acted like I hadn't tried all the options for getting my child to sleep. Seriously? Are you at her house? Is Sora your child? I think you need to reframe some of the things you say, to be completely honest. This might be a forum of like-minded women but evaluating, point-by-point, another mother's parenting is out of line. That is crossing from "this is what works for me, this is my perspective" into "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG".
Secondly, Sora is crying less overall. Isn't that the point?
Yes, psychologists have a wide spectrum of beliefs regarding self-soothing. I am personally not in the camp that believes in teaching a child to self-soothe at this age, but I also don't think Joanie did any harm to Sora with what she is doing. I actually fully support it and given the little bit I know about her family I feel like it is absolutely wonderful that they have found something that they feel comfortable with and that is working. Based solely on the article you posted earlier, it seems like you are reading pretty fringe psychologists. Darcia Narvaez does not speak for psychologists in general. The article was, for all intents and purposes, and opinion piece with some of the same faulty research I was referring to previously.
A lot of people DO have issues with anxiety, etc etc etc BUT if you look around here on MDC as a "case study" I think you'd find that A LOT of children of AP parents also struggle with anxiety, social disorders, sleep issues, etc. If that weren't the case, that would be a pretty good example of why AP is "optimal" for everyone, but unfortunately that is not how it is.
At 4 months is actually when infant sleep becomes more adult-like. Are YOU trained in infant sleep?
The risks of CIO are researched but again, the jury is still out and a lot of those studies are not valid.
Finally- object permanence is most certainly developing at this age. I wouldn't say a child has a full understanding of it, but it is developing for sure.