April 2012 Rockstar Mamas and Their Babies (better late than never) - Page 4

[MarineWife]

I'm not talking about social standards and normal rebellion or uncooperativeness or whatever it is. I'm talking about a family dynamic that's a major problem. I would think that no one would consider behavior modification or meds unless there was a major problem. And, by behavior modification, again, I'm not talking about normal interactions that help show a child polite or expected ways to behave in certain situations. Behavior modification is a specific technique, usually based on some kind of reward/punishment system, used to change specific behaviors just like training a dog using treats and chain collar yanks. If that's not what you mean, please explain more clearly.

http://www.minddisorders.com/A-Br/Behavior-modification.html

In almost all situations where behavior modification is applied to children (and maybe even in most clinical settings) it's because the adults want to control the child. My 2yo throws a fit when I tell him to stop playing and come eat so every time he does that I'm going to put him in time out for 2 minutes. Every time he comes to eat nicely (the way I like) and eats all of his lunch, I'll give him a cookie. That's about controlling the child rather than taking care of the child's needs. Maybe the child isn't hungry, in which case forcing or coercing him to eat would not be a good thing. Maybe the child isn't finished with his important work of playing. I know I would be furious if my husband took away my knitting and told me to either go sit at the table to eat or sit in the corner for 42 minutes. You'd be believe I'd be having a fit. Honestly, the more I talk about behavior modification, the more I think it is probably never appropriate.

I don't think you are being preachy but I do think we agree more than we disagree. Although, I do disagree with the idea that what Dad says goes no matter what. I think it really depends. If Dad says that everyone has to go to bed at 9 pm because he needs to go to bed then to get enough sleep before getting up the next morning but no one else is tired/sleepy, that's not fair. It's perfectly reasonable for Dad to ask everyone to be quiet or go in a different room if he's trying to sleep in the bedroom but it's not reasonable to insist that everyone turn off all the lights, get in bed and sit in the dark and be quiet because he's sleepy. There are many nights that I try to go to sleep early because everyone else is going to sleep but I just can't fall asleep. It feels horrible for me to force myself to stay in bed with my eyes shut willing myself to sleep not to mention that it's useless. I get up and do something else until I feel sleepy. It's no different for kids. If I wait until Kellen is ready to go to sleep, there aren't any problems. He says he's tired, climbs in bed, lays down and falls asleep even if the rest of us are still up talking and watching TV or whatever.

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 
 Behavior modification is a specific technique, usually based on some kind of reward/punishment system, used to change specific behaviors just like training a dog using treats and chain collar yanks. If that's not what you mean, please explain more clearly.

Well, like...using time-out, or time-in, or even a reward chart?  I do those.  So I guess I do use behavior modification.  One of the things on our reward chart is Keep Hands to Ourself, that's probably the one behavior on there that I really try to focus on.  If she gets all her stickers on any given day, she gets a reward.  At the end of the week, she gets a prize.  Punishment tho...hmm.  I mean, in the moment, I do punish/discipline.  Ir at least, why we keep our hands to ourselves, what we can do with our hands rather than hit.

I like your analogy with the knitting.  I see what you are saying.  I agree with that and that's why I would never suddenly tell my child ok we are done with this lets go.  I give a warning (ok 5 min then we are leaving, ok 2 min warning, etc).  

I feel a little differently about bedtime than you.  I do feel like when the parents want the kids at least to lay in bed, the child should try.  If they really aren't sleepy, try singing to themselves, or as the parent, try singing or reading or just sitting in the room with them.  I think more so what I mean with what Dad says goes (or what Mom says, either way) is if the behavior of the child is bothering someone (the parent, or anyone) and the parent says, "Please stop/Please use inside voice/Please get down off the couch, etc" the child needs to listen.  If they have a good reason, and they are old enough to voice that reason (No, I'm just trying to reach something) and the parent can decide if the reason makes enough sense to allow the action to continue.  But if the kid is just climbing around being a nut and can possibly get hurt, Mom or Dad has every right to say, 'Down, NOW!" and the kid really ought to listen.  It's about respecting your parents.  Not simply obeying or having your child be easily controlled, but respect.

[akind1]

I guess what I am wanting DH to do is behaviour modification. Gabe gets pokey, and DH just says stop, stop, STOP, without any consequence. Gabe has no reason to stop, other than he's getting on DH's nerves and provoking a reaction (which he wants to do). I think if he had a reason to stop (stop trying to pick my nose, it's gross. IF you continue, either I will get up, or you will have to get off the couch)  - may seem punitive, and you are trying to modify the behavior. But I don't see anything wrong with modifying unacceptable behavior.  (and it's unacceptable for a good reason).

Carrie, how old was Nora when you started the sticker chart? I don't think Gabe has enough sense of time for something like that to work yet. But I like the idea.

Respect goes both ways, to a point. I want our kids to respect us, and listen to what we have to say - not just because we are bigger and mean, but because we are right :) I want them to trust our directions. I also try to show I respect them, too, by listening to them and taking their feelings and needs into consideration - but sometimes I just can't let that rule us. Gabe sometimes would stay somewhere and play for hours, but we can't stay all day, there are other things to do. Sometimes he wants to go and we just can't, for whatever reason. (I say these as examples) I also try to do warnings, but I also know that there will be times he will be upset no matter how many warnings I give or how prepared he should be for the next step.

I am not enjoying this bout of cold weather!

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by akind1 

I guess what I am wanting DH to do is behaviour modification. Gabe gets pokey, and DH just says stop, stop, STOP, without any consequence. Gabe has no reason to stop, other than he's getting on DH's nerves and provoking a reaction (which he wants to do). I think if he had a reason to stop (stop trying to pick my nose, it's gross. IF you continue, either I will get up, or you will have to get off the couch)  - may seem punitive, and you are trying to modify the behavior. But I don't see anything wrong with modifying unacceptable behavior.  (and it's unacceptable for a good reason).

Carrie, how old was Nora when you started the sticker chart? I don't think Gabe has enough sense of time for something like that to work yet. But I like the idea.

Respect goes both ways, to a point. I want our kids to respect us, and listen to what we have to say - not just because we are bigger and mean, but because we are right :) I want them to trust our directions. I also try to show I respect them, too, by listening to them and taking their feelings and needs into consideration - but sometimes I just can't let that rule us. Gabe sometimes would stay somewhere and play for hours, but we can't stay all day, there are other things to do. Sometimes he wants to go and we just can't, for whatever reason. (I say these as examples) I also try to do warnings, but I also know that there will be times he will be upset no matter how many warnings I give or how prepared he should be for the next step.

I am not enjoying this bout of cold weather!

Yes!  I agree.  Not b/c I Say So but b/c I'm wiser (for real) and setting an example.  It's not bullying.  It's parenting!

I only started the reward chart about a month ago, but I think we could have started earlier.  But yeah, still over 3.  I think he might need to be a little older.  That said, we did potty learning with rewards and she was just shy of 2.  It worked!  You could always try with simple things and see if it works.

It's chilly and rainy today too, but I really want subway.  Going to go for a walk in the drizzle and get it anyway!

[MarineWife]

Yes, Carrie, that's behavior modification. I don't like it because I don't think it really teaches a child any intrinsic reasons for doing things. It teaches the child that it's only worth doing something "good" if she gets something for it. It can also result in a child becoming secretive for fear of being punished. It's about pleasing someone else, the parent, rather than doing something because it's the kind or helpful or cooperative thing. These are very subtle differences and I may not be the best to try to explain them. I suggest reading, Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn.

Sometimes there are have-tos that will upset a child. That's unavoidable. Again, I am not saying that we should all let children do everything they want no matter how it affects others. I'm saying that as the big people with all the power it's important to really think about whether or not what we are asking or demanding is really necessary or if there's another way that won't result in the child getting so upset.

That leads into the what Dad or Mom says goes idea. That's not exactly what you described in those examples, Carrie. When someone says that what I say goes they imply that there is no room for consideration of another viewpoint or idea.

Kat ~ I wouldn't say that what you described is behavior modification. I would consider those natural consequences. If you do something that bothers someone, like poking them, they will not hold you. That's a good lesson for a child to learn. It's not punishment to put the child down and say, "You can't sit on my lap if you are going to do that," unless it's done in anger. Again, subtle differences. I would absolutely put my child down if he were hurting me. I've been doing this with Dylan, sort of. He won't sit still in my lap or on the couch. He wants to squirm and crawl and it's not safe. So, I put him down on the floor while saying that, if he wants to crawl (or whatever), he can do that on the floor because it's not safe on the couch. I don't put him down and angrily say, "You can't be up here if you don't behave!" One is about safety. The other is about control.

Carrie ~ I keep forgetting that I was going to say that I really like that stuff you post on FB generates interesting discussion but then it seems that maybe I tend to start arguments. Sorry.

[akind1]

Carrie: I think rewards can work for potty - for Gabe the idea of a reward chart is kind of delayed gratification, and he totally doesn't get that. I do really like natural consequences. They are so logical!

MW: subtle differences - I think "you can't be up here if you won't behave" all the time! because it's so ingrained in my head. But I don't say it. How is Gabe supposed to know or understand what "behave" means? I would say "you can't sit on my lap if you can't be gentle" - it's a lot more specific, and I think is a reasonable expectation. the hard part is saying and acting on those things before it gets so out of hand you react out of anger. (because once or twice having a finger stuck in your ear might be funny. 10 times, not so much)

We are on easter candy sugar overload here. need to get it out of the house!

it's not bad in the sun, but in the shade it is chilly. Had to put the kids in long pants today!

[MarineWife]

[quote name="akind1" url="/community/t/1349941/april-2012-rockstar-mamas-and-their-babies-better-late-than-never/60#post_16944905"the hard part is saying and acting on those things before it gets so out of hand you react out of anger. (because once or twice having a finger stuck in your ear might be funny. 10 times, not so much)[/quote]

Dylan likes to stick his finger in anyone's mouth. Sometimes it hurts if his nails are long and he scratches my gums. Ouch! The same with the pinching. Sean and I both would just have to put Dylan down sometimes because he wouldn't stop pinching.

Gentle is still a bit ambiguous, especially for a toddler, I think. I see that with the older boys, even. Ethan will do something to Kellen and Kellen cries and says it hurt and Ethan says he didn't do it that hard. So, I have to explain to Ethan that it's not about how hard he thought he did it but about how it felt to Kellen. Sean did it to Ryan when he was younger and they would wrestle. Ryan does it to Ethan and Kellen sometimes.

[AnnieA]

I've been reading along all day but unable to respond until now. After reading the examples and descriptions of behavior modification vs. natural consequences, I definitely lean more towards natural consequences. BUT, I think it is important to impart social skills to our kids. We have a big issue with that in our house mainly because at the big kids' other house, there's lots of "If people don't like how I/we behave, then they are the ones that have a problem and they don't need to be around us." An example would be the big kids' mom letting their little siblings talk and be noisy w/out removing them during a musical performance at the kids' school. Her opinion is if other people are bothered, that's their problem. But she doesn't attempt to impart to the little girls that this is a situation where it's appropriate to be quiet and listen to the performance. That it's respectful to be quiet because the performers have worked hard and the people there want to hear the music. So then the big kids get the message that when they behave in atypical social behaviors, it's not their responsibility to conform to social and societal norms, it's other people's responsibility to not be offended. I think that's wrong. And then DH and I are the ones trying to "change" them by asking them to not talk in a situation that requires a quiet atmosphere like church or a performance.

MW, your sleep example made me laugh because I did something similar last week w/DSS 17. Our house is small...7 people living in 1100 sq ft. You can hear everything. DSS 17 would stay up all night if allowed. But he's loud when he's up moving around. So I asked him to go to his bed at midnight. He didn't need to go to sleep, he could read, listen to his ipod, text on his phone, etc, but he needed to be still and quiet. I had to get some sleep. I don't think there's anything wrong with instituting a house-bedtime when people need to stop moving around.

[akind1]

I think a house bedtime/quiet time is fine - I think our very laid back sort of line is 10:00. sometimes it gets pushed to 11. (this is for kids) Also agree with the societal norms - as long as kids are told going into a situation what the behavior expected is (i.e. "kids, we are going to a concert. we expect you to be quiet/whisper/sit sort of still so we can enjoy the performace that the performers worked so hard on") I have always said kids will not learn how to act out in public if you never take them. I think it's very true. I hate when I hear people say they can't take their kids to X place because they can't behave. (while I am sure some of the places are not child appropriate, some could be).

As far as not offending people, that depends. It's not my problem if other people are offended by me NIP. It really doesn't affect them in the least. I have gotten dirty looks from other customers at restaurants just for HAVING a kid with me. Also, not my problem. My kid throwing food at you? or disturbing the peace? Now, that's my problem, and I try to do something about it. It's why when there is good weather, we try to eat outside at restaurants, it seems to not make the noise as bad LOL

[MarineWife]

There's a big difference between a 17yo and a 4yo. If I didn't have LOs in my bed, I may not actually get out of bed if I couldn't sleep. I might read a book or knit or watch TV in bed. Even Ethan can sit quietly in bed and read or play his DSi or watch TV. Kellen, not so much. There isn't much a 4yo can do quietly by himself or otherwise.

And, the examples of the music performance or being in church aren't situations where the kids can't control their behavior. Those are situations where the kids haven't been expected to behave appropriately in certain situations like the restaurant example I gave in the beginning. Again, not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about within the family. But, I guess if I had step-children who didn't behave the way I expected them to in public, for example, because that's not the way they were used to having to behave and it was a constant struggle, I wouldn't take them out in public. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make much difference in a situation like that if you aren't the custodial parent. Then again, maybe not taking them a few times would help them realize that they do need to behave civilly if they want to be included in the things you do. That's more of a natural consequence for older kids. Like, if my teenager wants me to take her to the mall to do some clothes shopping but she is loud and rude and obnoxious while we are there and embarrasses me, I'd probably leave without buying anything and not take her back (at least for a while). What I wouldn't do is buy her the clothes and then ground her once we got home or take away her cell phone. That doesn't make any sense.

[akind1]

if everyone sits/ lays down to chill, will Kellen? IDK if its the best or most ideal thing, but we use the TV for chill time before bed, or Gabe can sit for a while quietly with the iphone. it helps us, at any rate!

[MarineWife]

Let me go back and explain the whole situation from the beginning. I was having trouble getting Dylan to fall asleep and stay asleep before Ethan and Kellen were asleep because they make noise getting ready for bed. When Sean got home we came up with the plan that Sean would get Ethan and Kellen ready for bed and get them all settled before I came up with Dylan. Then we could all lay down with the lights out and go to sleep. There isn't really any problem with that. For the most part, once we are all in bed he'll settle and go to sleep. He doesn't fight to go to bed and he doesn't try to get up after we've all laid down. Sometimes he's very squirmy, which can bother everyone, but that's not something he's doing to defy us or anything like that. He's just trying to get comfortable or restless or whatever. If Kellen wasn't able to settle at that time, he could go in the other room with Sean to sleep, which he chose to do most nights. Once they were in bed Kellen would quickly settle and fall asleep. Having someone to cuddle him helps a lot, which I can't do if I'm trying to get Dylan to sleep. If he's tired enough, he will also settle and fall asleep while the rest of us are still up with the lights and the TV on. It's those times when he feels like he just can't settle that I got the homeopathic tablets for. It was supposed to be up to him if he needed them or not.

The problems started because Sean doesn't know how to corral Kellen and keep him focused on getting something done. Kellen needs more direct attention and hands on guidance. Sean sits down in the room with ESPN on and tells Kellen over and over to stop and go brush his teeth, for example, while Kellen continues to play and Sean gets more and more agitated. It's the same thing as your DH telling Gabe to stop trying to pick his nose over and over but not actually doing anything about it. Rather than actually paying attention to Kellen and helping him get his teeth brushed and get into bed, he wants to just feed him the Hyland's tablets.

As soon as I go upstairs and tell Kellen to brush his teeth, go to the bathroom and get into the bed, he pretty much does. He may bounce off the walls as he's doing it but he gets it done. Last night Kellen was sitting on the bed being very calm and quiet. I asked him if he'd had any of his "medicine" and he said no. Sean started to get him some but I said he obviously didn't need it. He was fine.

That's why I'm uncomfortable with Sean just wanting to dose Kellen and the message it's sending Kellen.

[AnnieA]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

Let me go back and explain the whole situation from the beginning. I was having trouble getting Dylan to fall asleep and stay asleep before Ethan and Kellen were asleep because they make noise getting ready for bed. When Sean got home we came up with the plan that Sean would get Ethan and Kellen ready for bed and get them all settled before I came up with Dylan. Then we could all lay down with the lights out and go to sleep. There isn't really any problem with that. For the most part, once we are all in bed he'll settle and go to sleep. He doesn't fight to go to bed and he doesn't try to get up after we've all laid down. Sometimes he's very squirmy, which can bother everyone, but that's not something he's doing to defy us or anything like that. He's just trying to get comfortable or restless or whatever. If Kellen wasn't able to settle at that time, he could go in the other room with Sean to sleep, which he chose to do most nights. Once they were in bed Kellen would quickly settle and fall asleep. Having someone to cuddle him helps a lot, which I can't do if I'm trying to get Dylan to sleep. If he's tired enough, he will also settle and fall asleep while the rest of us are still up with the lights and the TV on. It's those times when he feels like he just can't settle that I got the homeopathic tablets for. It was supposed to be up to him if he needed them or not.
The problems started because Sean doesn't know how to corral Kellen and keep him focused on getting something done. Kellen needs more direct attention and hands on guidance. Sean sits down in the room with ESPN on and tells Kellen over and over to stop and go brush his teeth, for example, while Kellen continues to play and Sean gets more and more agitated. It's the same thing as your DH telling Gabe to stop trying to pick his nose over and over but not actually doing anything about it. Rather than actually paying attention to Kellen and helping him get his teeth brushed and get into bed, he wants to just feed him the Hyland's tablets.
As soon as I go upstairs and tell Kellen to brush his teeth, go to the bathroom and get into the bed, he pretty much does. He may bounce off the walls as he's doing it but he gets it done. Last night Kellen was sitting on the bed being very calm and quiet. I asked him if he'd had any of his "medicine" and he said no. Sean started to get him some but I said he obviously didn't need it. He was fine.
That's why I'm uncomfortable with Sean just wanting to dose Kellen and the message it's sending Kellen.

MW, yeah that would make me frustrated too. MY DH also doesn't seem to understand that the kids "flip out" for lack of a better word when his attention is drawn to his phone or TV. He needs to engage if he wants them to do the things he's asked them to do. Otherwise they just ignore him and continue what they were doing or worse, start picking fights with each other to get him to engage by fussing at them. He thinks they should be able to go off and do what they were asked to do. I wish that they were but the fact is either because of biological reasons or environmental reasons, they can't. Even though they are older. They need an engaged grownup following them around gently reminding them to stay on task. I don't think that warrants medicine either.

[MarineWife]

Yeah, and a lot of times that behavior is just normal kid behavior, at least for the younger ones. Ethan is sometimes distractable, too. Although, most of the time if I think he's not listening, he'll say he's just waiting until he's finished with whatever he's doing, like waiting for a commercial break or for a spot where he can pause his video game just like I wouldn't just drop my knitting. I'd have to get to a spot where I could stop without the thing unraveling or me forgetting where I was.

The stuff I got is homeopathic so I don't have to worry about an overdose or side effects but still. I don't like giving the kids the message that it's ok to take a pill for normal, every day stuff. KWIM?

[akind1]

MW: that makes a lot of sense. I wonder, if the TV were off, would Sean engage better to help K get ready for bed? Don't know if that would be of any help - like have a TV off at 9 or 9:30 rule so everyone can focus on getting ready for bed?

I have slept in my clothes the last couple nights. I just didn't feel like getting out of bed once I got Norah to sleep to take them off and change, LOL she takes forever to get to sleep. Nurses on and off, is so restless until she settles. The only thing that gets her out fast is wearing her, and she doesn't always stay asleep once I get her down. hopefuly it's a phase. I know she's going through some developmental milestones right now (this 6-8 month patch is full of them it seems) and that may be part of it.

I hope I am not taking BLW too far . . . last night she gummed a quesadilla and a strawberry. Enjoyed both tremendously, though I am doubtful much of either made it through. She was also super excited about Gabe's lucky charms, but she has no pincer grasp yet, and no way to chomp those things.

Hope everyone has a fun weekend!

[Baby_Cakes]

Oh, Alysia, now I see what you're talking about.  No I don't think that's cool either.  DH is guilty of doing that same thing -- go brush teeth, go get jammies -- while staring at the phone.  DD doesn't listen she just keeps bouncing around.  She still needs an escort, lol, but half the time he thinks she should be doing that stuff alone.  No way, dude!  

Kat - probably a phase.  She's more alert and restless and engaged in her exciting surroundings!!  LOL!  

LOL about the quesadilla!  Idk, is dairy cheese ok so early?    I love BLW.  You can't really make a mistake, b/c if they can't handle the food, they let you know.  I mean, there are so few "rules" that it just makes eating solids fun instead of work -- except for maybe the clean up part at the end.  Ha!

JJ - how is sleep going?  When DD started rolling and crawling around, I just stacked pillows around the edge of the bed.  Since she's rolling back and forth, I wouldn't worry too much.

Sucks you can't sleep with Tenley in the bed though.  Hmm..

We only bedshared with Nora, so once she got to be a little over a year, maybe a year and a half, we put a futon mattress on her floor and she would start the night out there.  Usually one of us would go to her when she cried for us, and spend the night in there with her.  Not so comfy, but at least she couldn't get hurt. (But she could come running to us if she needed to).  And we all got sleep.

I still think Finn is going to be in bed with me for a lonnnnngggg time.  There's no where else to put him.  And I love seeing him in the morning. 

[akind1]

Carrie - I *think* so, as long as there aren't any known allergies (same with strawberries - they are usually a wait food, because a lot of people are allergic - but we have no known food allergies in either family) - and I doubt she actually got much - she sucked on it like a lollipop - will keep an eye on her poop though! just starting solids poop is so weird. LOL

We have a futon mattress, I am thinking about that.

[MarineWife]

I think it might help if Sean turned off the TV but he's the one who turns it on to his shows. He's the one not paying attention. If people are up and doing things, it's still playtime to Kellen. That's the problem. Sean expects Kellen to stop playing just because he says so. Sean's getting better about that. During the day, he has started to stop, go over to where the boys are, touch them and get down to their level if they aren't listening when he talks to them from across the room. I think he saw the Calms Forte as an easy way out. He could give Kellen those pills and then he wouldn't have to pay attention so much. I don't think he did that consciously but that's what was happening and it really bothered me.

I haven't given Dylan any dairy or strawberries yet but I did give him some scrambled egg and some kiwi. Kiwi is related to strawberries so I was a little concerned about a reaction but we don't have any known allergies to those in our family and I've been giving him egg yolks for a while. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to what to feed him and he'll go all day with only nursing until dinnertime. I gave him some polenta yesterday since that's what we had for breakfast even though I said I wanted to avoid grains. He didn't like it, anyway, so it was no biggie. He also doesn't seem to like hamburger, which we had for dinner last night, but does like green beans. Go figure!

I've been telling Sean for about a week that we need to put our bed on the floor instead of on the frame because Dylan has crawled out of it a few times. I think I'm going to have to just tell Sean to go and do it.

[MarineWife]

My life officially sucks.

Sean is getting orders to go to Quantico for 2 months. I think he leaves next week. I guess that makes all this effort to reintegrate him back into the family useless. I've been thinking. Maybe part of the reason having him home is so hard for me is because I know I can't count on him staying. Since he could (and most likely will) leave again at any time, there's no point in me getting attached to him anymore.

[Baby_Cakes]

Ugh, I don't understand!  I thought he was home for awhile!  I didn't realize they could do that.  Boo.  I'm sorry, Alysia.  

At a loss on what to give Dylan.  Hmm.  Off the top of my head, thinking grain-free and whole foods -- black beans, bananas, peaches, avocado, baked apples, hummus, sweet potato, grapes cut up, broccoli florets steamed...

I almost made it all day yesterday with only nursing.  I gave in last night right before bedtime.  I feel like milk just isn't enough -- and I don't like feeling like that.  B/c I know at this young age, it totally is enough.  FWIW, tho, no hard boobies yesterday or excessive leaking.  So, maybe it's just that I need to offer more milk to make sure he's still nursing enough.