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Misleading reports about autism data - Page 16  

post #301 of 586

It's my understanding that premature birth is a substantial risk factor for autism that has been confirmed.  That strongly suggests some form of damage.

post #302 of 586
The mother having rubella during pregnancy is also considered a cause, so that would too.
post #303 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlest birds View Post

She only asked you to stop saying there was no evidence because she keeps giving evidence.  You might at least acknowledge something there instead of saying it simply doesn't exist.

 

No she asked me to stop saying it because she said some other people believe something else. That's not evidence.

 

 

edited to change be to me


Edited by AbbyGrant - 4/24/12 at 1:22pm
post #304 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 

 

I wonder how many of ya'll have actually read many research studies.  

Let's assume people from both sides of the debate have read research studies.  Of course, how much reading one does varies from person to person, but no one side has the corner on reading research studies.    It is a fallacy to think that  because people do not agree with you that they have not read the study.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

.
There seems to be a shot gun approach to these concerns, when one thing is refuted we switch to something else. It's thimerosol, no it's aluminum, no it's too many vaccines at once, no it's thimerosol again. Where's the science? 

 

I think there is some validity to this point - but the fault (if we can call it that) lies with both sides.

 

Parents notice that autistic tendencies emerge after a shot.

 

Parents wonder what caused it and zero in on one thing - be it thimersol, aluminum, etc.

 

Researchers create studies to refute their concerns.  

 

The whole thing strikes me as putting the horse before the cart.

 

What we should have done, IMHO, is a study to determine if autism symptoms emerge after vaccines - and then (if it is the case) whittle it down to what it is in vaccines that is causing the issue.  

 

As this issue has been addressed has left parents, and I suspect the pro vax community, quite frustrated.  

 

Some parents believe vaccines may contribute to autism.  Most of the pro-vax community does not.  The only way to solve this issue is to study autism in vax and vax free kids.  It is not solved by looking at individual ingredients such as thimersol or aluminum because we do not know what in vaccines is an issue.  

 

 

 

 

post #305 of 586
It's difficult because getting together a substantial enough sample of unvaccinated kids to detect something as rare (yes, 1 in 100 is rare in this context) as autism at a statistically significant level. I posted a study that looked at other health outcomes between the two groups earlier and it went over like a lead balloon.

There are multiple studies that are pointing to finding signs autism earlier and earlier. I also read recently that something like 90% of the time identical twins both have some kind of autism.
post #306 of 586
(given that one does, of course)
post #307 of 586

 

Quote:

You fail to acknowledge the problem of toxins such as aluminum or mercury being injected into an individual who is unable to excrete the toxin, such as someone with vitamin D deficiency or glutathione impairment--and autistic children have a high rate of vitamin D deficiency and glutathione impairment. This has been posted here already.

 

Underline mine. So is it the chicken or the egg that comes first? Are they autistic before getting the vaccine and unable to excrete the toxins, or become autistic after they get the vaccine? Are they vitamin D deficient before the vax or after? Does autism cause vit. D deficiency, or does the Vit. D deficiency cause autism?

 

I would ask about glutathione impairment but I don't actually know what it is.

post #308 of 586

 

Straight from the CDC--the symptoms that indicate vaccine-induced brain damage:  Remember that the autism diagnosis is strictly based on symptoms, so having the symptoms of autism is the same as having autism:

 

 

Encephalopathy. For purposes of the Reportable Events Table, a vaccine recipient shall be considered to have suffered an encephalopathy only if such recipient manifests, within the applicable period, an injury meeting the description below of an acute encephalopathy, and then a chronic encephalopathy persists in such person for more than 6 months beyond the date of vaccination.

  1. An acute encephalopathy is one that is sufficiently severe so as to require hospitalization (whether or not hospitalization occurred).
    1. For children less than 18 months of age who present without an associated seizure event, an acute encephalopathy is indicated by a "significantly decreased level of consciousness" (see "D" below) lasting for at least 24 hours. Those children less than 18 months of age who present following a seizure shall be viewed as having an acute encephalopathy if their significantly decreased level of consciousness persists beyond 24 hours and cannot be attributed to a postictal state (seizure) or medication.
    2. For adults and children 18 months of age or older, an acute encephalopathy is one that persists for at least 24 hours and is characterized by at least two of the following:
      1. A significant change in mental status that is not medication related: specifically a confusional state, or a delirium, or a psychosis;
      2. A significantly decreased level of consciousness, which is independent of a seizure and cannot be attributed to the effects of medication; and
      3. A seizure associated with loss of consciousness.
    3. Increased intracranial pressure may be a clinical feature of acute encephalopathy in any age group.

     

  2. A "significantly decreased level of consciousness" is indicated by the presence of at least one of the following clinical signs for at least 24 hours or greater:
    1. Decreased or absent response to environment (responds, if at all, only to loud voice or painful stimuli);
    2. Decreased or absent eye contact (does not fix gaze upon family members or other individuals); or
    3. Inconsistent or absent responses to external stimuli (does not recognize familiar people or things).

    The following clinical features alone, or in combination, do not demonstrate an acute encephalopathy or a significant change in either mental status or level of consciousness as described above: Sleepiness, irritability (fussiness), high-pitched and unusual screaming, persistent inconsolable crying, and bulging fontanelle. Seizures in themselves are not sufficient to constitute a diagnosis of encephalopathy. In the absence of other evidence of an acute encephalopathy, seizures shall not be viewed as the first symptom or manifestation of the onset of an acute encephalopathy.
     
  3. Chronic Encephalopathy occurs when a change in mental or neurologic status, first manifested during the applicable time period, persists for a period of at least 6 months from the date of vaccination. Individuals who return to a normal neurologic state after the acute encephalopathy shall not be presumed to have suffered residual neurologic damage from that event; any subsequent chronic encephalopathy shall not be presumed to be a sequela of the acute encephalopathy. If a preponderance of the evidence indicates that a child's chronic encephalopathy is secondary to genetic, prenatal or perinatal factors, that chronic encephalopathy shall not be considered to be a condition set forth in the Table.

    An encephalopathy shall not be considered to be a condition set forth in the Table if it is shown that the encephalopathy was caused by an infection, a toxin, a metabolic disturbance, a structural lesion, a genetic disorder or trauma (without regard to whether the cause of the infection, toxin, trauma, metabolic disturbance, structural lesion or genetic disorder is known).
post #309 of 586

So to fit this definition a baby would need to first be in a state of "decreased consciousness" in which they show decreased response and eye contact for at least 24 hours and then the condition continues for at least 6 months.

 

Sounds an awful lot like what so many parents report happened to their children.  Later it's called autism.  But if you had enough foresight and wanted compensation, call it encephalopathy instead of autism.

 

 

So how exactly considering this information do you know the difference between vaccine damage/brain damage and autism? 

 

 

 

I have NEVER claimed that my child's (partial) vax led to his diagnosis.  But he definitely meets these brain damage criteria and the only difference is that I am not certain if the timing implicated vax.  If you added in people like me and my son to the thousands who are certain of the timing, the potential for epidemic-level causation is real.  That's not proof, but to me it's shockingly plausible. 

 


I also want to add that the autoimmune "injuries" exactly parallel autism in terms of compensation.  We have some small number of people being compensated for acute autoimmune problems that have been blamed on vaccines.  We also have thousands of cases of autoimmune disorders with unknown causes that may be connected with vaccines.  So we know that vaccines cause immune system damage and we know that they cause brain damage but only the ignorant think these are likely happening (in connection with vaccinations) oftener than acknowledged or noticed (since acknowledging/noticing and making a confirmable connection is in fact tricky and LIKELY to be inaccurate).  This is like adding 2 + 2 and getting 3.  

post #310 of 586

Here is the current diagnostic criteria for ASDs.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html

 

 


Edited by AbbyGrant - 4/24/12 at 1:33pm
post #311 of 586

Yep, I live with all of those. 

 

 

So we have an overlap of symptoms.  The autism spectrum disorders add to the decreased awareness and responsiveness and altered mental state all of the social implications and obsessive behaviors.  You still have the original symptoms that match encephalopathy. 

 

So first you see symptoms of brain damage, then you see what it's like once you start trying to function.  Sometimes you see the function issues first.  There appears to be nothing to suggest that autism doesn't start as encephalopathy or is not a large subgroup of those who have experienced encephalopathy. 

post #312 of 586

Here's the new diagnostic criteria for ASD that will go into effect when the DSM V comes out.

 

http://www.dsm5.org/proposedrevisions/pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=94

 

 

 

How it's defined is changing based on increased understanding about what it is. 

 

 


 

post #313 of 586

 

nm...I misread

post #314 of 586

 

 

Quote:
What we should have done, IMHO, is a study to determine if autism symptoms emerge after vaccines - and then (if it is the case) whittle it down to what it is in vaccines that is causing the issue. 

 

This sounds like a good and logical way to research the issue, but it's not.  Vaccines are administered on a schedule, when you follow that.  Signs of autism tend to show up on a schedule as well - when parents notice that a child is falling behind on developmental milestones.  The possibility of a link has been studied.  No evidence of a link between vaccines and autism has been found.  

 

At this point, every dollar spent looking for a link between vaccines and autism is a dollar wasted that could have been spent looking for the ACTUAL cause of autism.  I'm not sure whether the rate of autism is on the rise, or whether the rate of diagnosis is on the rise - and I suspect it's a combination of the two.  I think it would be pretty cool if we could find out what causes autism.  There are a lot of areas left to study.  There are scientists looking at genetics, epigenetics, infectious diseases, parental medical histories, environmental toxins, and a million other things. They do not need to spend any more time or money looking at vaccines.  We, as a society, need to let go of the notion of a vaccine-autism link.  Young children get both, but one doesn't cause the other.  As long as we are hung up on it, we will have no answers for autism, and increasing problems with public health as unwarranted concerns about vaccines drive people away sensible prophylaxis.  

post #315 of 586

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlest birds View Post

So we have an overlap of symptoms.  The autism spectrum disorders add to the decreased awareness and responsiveness and altered mental state all of the social implications and obsessive behaviors.  You still have the original symptoms that match encephalopathy. 

 

So there is an overlap of symptoms. I'm sure lots of things have overlap of symptoms. But there are symptoms of ASD, particularly the "restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities" that are not part of encephalopathy. The diagnostic criteria for autism, old or new, is not the same for encephalopathy and vice versa.  Saying some of the symptoms match doesn't mean anything, not to me anyway.


 

post #316 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

At this point, every dollar spent looking for a link between vaccines and autism is a dollar wasted that could have been spent looking for the ACTUAL cause of autism.  

Real question, no snark, I don't know where to look...

does anyone know how much federal funding goes to autism research, and specifically, research involving vaccines? If you consider investigation between autism vax link to be dollars wasted, how much is being wasted?

 

Also, from what I quickly saw, it looks like IACC is prioritizing environmental factors over genetic in research?

 

post #317 of 586

I fond a local news source reporting that the Feds will be spending $693 million on autism research over the next three years.  I'm not even sure it's a news item instead of something like a letter to the editor, but it is the only source I am finding with a number in a cursory search.  

 

At this point, I do not believe federal money is being spent on efforts to connect vaccines to autism.  I think the scientific community has stopped doing that, because it has been investigated and no link has been found.  The NIH is investigating genetic and epigenomic causes in addition to environmental possibilities.  

 

This page lists (some? all?) major studies on autism published in the last year: http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autism-science/research-by-year-2011

This page offers the position of the Autism Science Foundation on Autism and vaccines: http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

 

The ASF does cite Paul Offit, so fair warning to those of you who find him outrageous and inflammatory.  As someone who favors vaccination, I continue to think he's a great guy who invented a life-saving vaccine with an excellent safety record.  And I will continue to think that no matter what you say about wasting diseases in pigs.  For those of you who believe that Paul Offit is a menace to society who spends his time rolling in money while fantasizing about infecting tiny babies with neurotoxic pig DNA, please note that the ASF cites a lot of scientists, most of whom did not make millions off of Rotateq.  

post #318 of 586
Quote:

Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

At this point, I do not believe federal money is being spent on efforts to connect vaccines to autism.  I think the scientific community has stopped doing that, because it has been investigated and no link has been found.  The NIH is investigating genetic and epigenomic causes in addition to environmental possibilities.  

So then, what money is being wasted?

I believe I saw that Autism Speaks does support research towards vax/autism link, but they are private?

post #319 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

 

So there is an overlap of symptoms. I'm sure lots of things have overlap of symptoms. But there are symptoms of ASD, particularly the "restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities" that are not part of encephalopathy. The diagnostic criteria for autism, old or new, is not the same for encephalopathy and vice versa.  Saying some of the symptoms match doesn't mean anything, not to me anyway.

I guess it doesn't mean anything to you, put I will just put it out there anyway:

Quote:

One must note that the DSM-IV definition of “autistic disorder” is similar on its face to the VICP’s definitions of “encephalopathy, seizures and sequela.” (83) The VICP’s description of acute encephalopathy for children 18 months of age and older, including “significant decreased level of consciousness,” is consistent with the DSM-IV’s criteria for onset before age 3 of “autistic disorder.” The dimensions of autistic disorder are consonant with the VICP’s detailed description of “decreased level of consciousness”:

1.       Decreased or absent response to environment (responds, if at all, only to loud voice or painful stimuli)

2.       Decreased or absent eye contact (does not fix gaze upon family members or other individuals); or

3.       Inconsistent or absent responses to external stimuli (does not recognize familiar people or things). (84)

 

In other words, lack of normal eye gaze, impaired social relations, and non-responsiveness to external stimuli are noted in both the DSM-IV autism and VICP encephalopathy classifications as diagnostic criteria. To be sure, the DSM-IV description differs from the VICP description, but DSM-IV “autistic disorder” does not contradict the VICP description of encephalopathy, seizures and sequel.

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

 

post #320 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

 

This sounds like a good and logical way to research the issue, but it's not.  Vaccines are administered on a schedule, when you follow that.  Signs of autism tend to show up on a schedule as well - when parents notice that a child is falling behind on developmental milestones.  

 

The pro-vax community often conteneds the admistration of vax and the time autism is first noted is a coincidence.  One way to confirm or deny this would be to change the schedule - delay it a couple of years.  If the number of parents still claiming their children first display autistic symptoms after a shot remains the same, vaccines might be implicated.  If not, it might be co-incidence.  I do see issues with a very few vaccines (such as pertussis - which, if you want to give it, should be done as an infant, as that is when pertussis is dangerous) - but others are completely moot.  It is irrelevant whether a child receives the mumps vaccine at 12 months or 3 years. 

 

do not need to spend any more time or money looking at vaccines.  We, as a society, need to let go of the notion of a vaccine-autism link. 

 

Says you orngtongue.gif   Clearly a number of people feel differently.  To be honest, I am not 100% convinced research money should go towards the autism/vaccine link - maybe the money would be better spent on looking at other, simpler and cleaner (the vax-autism connection is messy) possibilities.  The pompousness of saying "there is NO autism-vaccine connection, and you people should not worry your little heads about" grates though.  It also isn't working for some of the population. 

 

 

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