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According to the PHS and the AAP, to reduce the possibility that children exceed FDA guidelines of methyl mercury (they did not differentiate between ethyl and methyl) through cumulative exposure
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4826a3.htm
Just passing along the info. Make of it what you will.
What do you make of it?
And this all begs the questions:
If thimerosal in vaccines is safe as they claim, then why has it been gradually removed?
If it's not safe, why won't they admit to harm it has caused?
If it's not safe, why is it still in the flu vaccine not just given to, but recommended to pregnant women and children as young as 6 months?
What I've read about it says the FDA actually think it is safe, but they advise removing it so that parents won't use it as an excuse not to vaccinate against serious diseases. The fact that it's still used in multi-vial doses where it's necessary as a preservative might suggest it is safe.
You have to believe in a mass conspiracy involving thousands of Doctors and health professionals if you think that thimerosal is seriously dangerous. I refuse to believe that. I'm sure there are some bas doctors, but I think the vast majority are trying to do the best for their patients.
Prosciencemum , THANK YOU for saying that ! 
Has anyone seen the new study that looks at prenatal vitamins and autism? It finds significant reduction in autism in those mothers who took prenatal vitamins for three months prior to pregnancy and during the first month of pregnancy -- with a stronger positive impact for children with certain particular genetic factors. Interesting enough, prenatal vitamin use between months 2-9 of the pregnancy had no benefit.
What I've read about it says the FDA actually think it is safe, but they advise removing it so that parents won't use it as an excuse not to vaccinate against serious diseases. The fact that it's still used in multi-vial doses where it's necessary as a preservative might suggest it is safe.
You have to believe in a mass conspiracy involving thousands of Doctors and health professionals if you think that thimerosal is seriously dangerous. I refuse to believe that. I'm sure there are some bas doctors, but I think the vast majority are trying to do the best for their patients.
I do not believe there is a mass conspiracy and tons of bad evil drs and health pros out there.
I DO believe they DO NOT know certain things.
Go read simpsonwood transcript sometime when you get the chance. It is 50-60 experts in all sorts of related fields sitting there scratching their heads, admitting no one knows much about safety of ethylmercury (they DO know more about methyl, that's why EPA got alarmed when ethylmercury exposure would surpass methyl guidelines), and then totally believing the data shown to them showing a positive correlation between thimerosal exposure and certain disorders. Whether or not that is true or not... reading these people believing it *could* be is enough to tell me they don't know what the true safety is.
Oh yeah, and then quite a few express concerns about aluminum salts, since we don't really know much about that either. (although data and slides of original study ref'd in simpsonwood transcripts were lost, head researchers went to work for pharma company, and the study could not be repeated, the transcript only became available b/c of freedom of information act... see how transparent this is? No wonder some people buy the conspiracy theory)
The point is, they DO NOT know. Some think it's safe because they've been using it for decades and most people don't automatically drop dead after vaccination. I find it really disturbing that anyone can expect a population to follow any mandated health procedure, when really, honestly, truly, the recommending body does NOT know the safety or long-term consequences.
I do not have a medical degree, but really, my commonsense would tell me that injecting newborn, young babies and children, and/or fetal exposure to many toxic substances, repeatedly, could possibly have some bad side effects for some individuals. 
I don't think vax are the only factor in autism or other learning/neuro issues, but I find it disgusting that they are usually totally discounted in effort to protect vaccination program and anyone bringing up the issue is maligned.
Proscience, if you were truly pro science, you would be asking for more science, not just assuming it is ok because they do it. That is blind faith. How many times in the past have medicines or procedures been used before it is known how bad they are? Just because they were approved or used obviously does not make them safe.
Thim. in the multi-vial flu vax is not *necessary,* they do have an alternative. It is just cheaper.
Has anyone seen the new study that looks at prenatal vitamins and autism? It finds significant reduction in autism in those mothers who took prenatal vitamins for three months prior to pregnancy and during the first month of pregnancy -- with a stronger positive impact for children with certain particular genetic factors. Interesting enough, prenatal vitamin use between months 2-9 of the pregnancy had no benefit.
There have been studies showing that vitamin D deficiency results in glutathione deficiency--and glutathione is necessary for excreting ethylmercury and aluminum, as well as studies showing that thimerosal impairs glutathione.
There have also been studies suggesting that autistic children have impaired ability to excrete heavy metals.
My reasons for believing that thimerosal is seriously dangerous:
1) I had a documented severe reaction to thimerosal in PolyPred eyedrops in the 1980's.
2) The 91 studies linking thimerosal to neurological damage, listed on this link:http://www.vaccinationnews.com/evidence-thimerosal-risk (No conspiracy theories, mass or otherwise, listed here. Just mainstream, peer-reviewed science.)
Prosciencemum's argument:
You have to believe in a mass conspiracy involving thousands of Doctors and health professionals if you think that thimerosal is seriously dangerous.
Just sayin'.
You have to believe in a mass conspiracy involving thousands of Doctors and health professionals if you think that thimerosal is seriously dangerous. I refuse to believe that. I'm sure there are some bas doctors, but I think the vast majority are trying to do the best for their patients.
No, you don't.
I can think of 2 instances in my life where the medical establishment with regards to vaccines turned out to be less than honourable.
1. They continued to use Dpt for a few years after they knew DaPT was safer. Canada - late 90's.
2. They told us they were removing thimersol from vaccines, but did not tell us doctors and public health officials would be allowed to use up any vaccines that still contained it.
I know there are many more examples than the two listed above, these are simply the ones that affected me. I also find the fact that pharmaceutical companies sit on advisory committees at the CDC particularly troubling.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. They have not earned my trust through their actions. Questioning something does not equal conspiracy theorist.
For many reasons the medical establishment is not trustworthy when it comes to vaccines.
http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr Another thing I read after taximom posted - law review, not conspiracy theory website. Discusses how vax court has compensated cases that could be diagnosed as "austism" in the past but because they were called something else on paper (encephalopathy or residual seizure disorder). The Omnibus proceeding actually used "autism," and apparently since it would create too much public panic to admit vax can sometimes cause/trigger autism, was denied. Vax program is protected at all costs, this is not science.
This is like telling me cats don't exist, all those cats you see are actually dogs. Give me a break.
And this was also not a group of stupid jenny mccarthy misled parents, there were many hcps and experts involved supporting the autism cases were vax injuries.
You have to believe in a mass conspiracy involving thousands of Doctors and health professionals if you think that thimerosal is seriously dangerous. I refuse to believe that. I'm sure there are some bas doctors, but I think the vast majority are trying to do the best for their patients.
Replace "thimerosal" with "circumcision", "c-section", "medicalized birth", or "formula", and you have 99% of the MDC community.
Do you REALLY think that pediatricians are doing research on the dangers of thimerosal or aluminum in vaccines? I'm sorry, but that's terribly naive. Vaccinating doctors follow recommendations from the CDC and/or AAP. Where's the science there? Your logic is seriously flawed.
No, you don't.
I can think of 2 instances in my life where the medical establishment with regards to vaccines turned out to be less than honourable.
1. They continued to use Dpt for a few years after they knew DaPT was after. Canada - late 90's.
2. They told us they were removing thimersol from vaccines, but did not tell us doctors and public health officials would be allowed to use up any vaccines that still contained it. I remember several people feeling mislead by the whole thing - they had though thimersol was being removed, but it wasn't.
I know there are many more examples that the two listed above, these are simply the ones that affected me. I also find the fact that pharmaceutical companies sit on advisory committees at the CDC particularly troubling.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. They have not earned my trust through their actions. Questioning something does not equal conspiracy theorist.
For many reasons the medical establishment is not trustworthy when it comes to vaccines.
Don't forget when the medical establishment knew that the OPV was causing polio and continued using it, and still is - there are more cases of OPV-induced polio in India than natural polio.
Go read simpsonwood transcript sometime when you get the chance. It is 50-60 experts in all sorts of related fields sitting there scratching their heads, admitting no one knows much about safety of ethylmercury (they DO know more about methyl, that's why EPA got alarmed when ethylmercury exposure would surpass methyl guidelines), and then totally believing the data shown to them showing a positive correlation between thimerosal exposure and certain disorders. Whether or not that is true or not... reading these people believing it *could* be is enough to tell me they don't know what the true safety is.
Oh yeah, and then quite a few express concerns about aluminum salts, since we don't really know much about that either. (although data and slides of original study ref'd in simpsonwood transcripts were lost, head researchers went to work for pharma company, and the study could not be repeated, the transcript only became available b/c of freedom of information act... see how transparent this is? No wonder some people buy the conspiracy theory)
I believe it goes further than thimersol, though.
There is so much we do not know or do not have consensus on with regards to vaccines.
I found page 2 of this thread really interesting. Slmommy, Taximom and proscience were posting so many links…many of which nuanced the issue, contradicted another link, etc, etc. There is so much information out there, and you really can make any case - be it pro vaccines, non-vaccinating or anything else in between. Even people who study vaccinating are not in agreement on issues.
Things we do not know about vaccines:
-how many children have serious reactions to diseases (we have some low base-line numbers)
-which children are prone to vaccine reaction
-if vaccines play any part in the rise in autism
I do not have a medical degree, but really, my commonsense would tell me that injecting newborn, young babies and children, and/or fetal exposure to many toxic substances, repeatedly, could possibly have some bad side effects for some individuals. I don't think vax are they only factor in autism or other learning/neuro issues, but I find it disgusting that they are usually totally discounted in effort to protect vaccination program and anyone bringing up the issue is maligned.
Bolding mine. You know how to come closer to answering the question on whether vaccines play a role in autism? Do a large scale study on vaxxed and unvaxxed children. None have been done so far.
Don't forget when the medical establishment knew that the OPV was causing polio and continued using it, and still is - there are more cases of OPV-induced polio in India than natural polio.
and Brazil http://g1.globo.com/ciencia-e-saude/noticia/2011/09/vacina-injetavel-deve-substituir-gotas-na-prevencao-contra-polio-diz-medico.html (Globo is largest media outlet in Brazil, this is mainstream, and in Portuguese, sorry), but essentially says case of baby 1yr 4mo who has paralysis after the opv, injectable vax is safer, but the Ministry of Health maintains that "only the oral polio vaccine can realize the goal of erradicating polio in Brazil, since administering the vaccine is more simple and indirectly immunizes the total population" (translated by me, and yeah, that is recognizing shedding through feces at the end there)
There hasn't been wild case of polio in Brazil in decades. OPV is given to all children for free, you can get IP if you pay at a private clinic.
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I do not have a medical degree, but really, my commonsense would tell me that injecting newborn, young babies and children, and/or fetal exposure to many toxic substances, repeatedly, could possibly have some bad side effects for some individuals.
I don't have a problem with people saying they're using their common sense or trusting their instincts or their gut or whatever when it comes to vaccination or any number of decisions. At least that's honest. It's just when people start twisting facts to promote an anti-vaccine agenda that I get a little twitchy (not saying you are doing this slmommy). I chose the selective/delayed track because my common sense told me my children didn't need to be vaccinated on the CDC schedule or at all for certain diseases. I question what the medical community puts out there, but I also question what those on the other end of the spectrum put out there as well. I'm wary of extremists and think there's a lot of crap information out there.
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I don't think vax are they only factor in autism or other learning/neuro issues, but I find it disgusting that they are usually totally discounted in effort to protect vaccination program and anyone bringing up the issue is maligned.
And I find it equally disgusting when autism is used to further an anti-vaccine, anti-"big-pharma," anti-western medicine, anti-whatever agenda. I think the reason the issue probably gets marginalized is because some of the more vocal opponents do come off as conspiracy theorists or worse yet have a financial interest in promoting the idea. There's a lot of money to made off "curing" children of autism supposedly caused by vaccines. There's an entire industry based on squeezing money out of desperate parents, and it's based on pseudoscience, and that's putting it kindly. It's probably hard to hear the voices of reason underneath all that.
You know how to come closer to answering the question on whether vaccines play a role in autism? Do a large scale study on vaxxed and unvaxxed children. None have been done so far.
I think it would be difficult at best and unethical at worst to do a well-controlled vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. I'm really not sure how one could be done.
I think it would be difficult at best and unethical at worst to do a well-controlled vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study.
So the answer is to not even bother?
It's not unethical to do a study on children whose parents have opted not to vaccinate. Until there IS a study, it seems more unethical to keep vaccinating at such a rate, given that it is unknown what the long-term effects of the current vaccination schedule are.
So the answer is to not even bother?
It's not unethical to do a study on children whose parents have opted not to vaccinate. Until there IS a study, it seems more unethical to keep vaccinating at such a rate, given that it is unknown what the long-term effects of the current vaccination schedule are.
I said a well-controlled study not a study comparing children whose parents choose not to vaccinate versus children whose parents do. The latter would be easier to do but wouldn't tell us much.
I said a well-controlled study not a study comparing children whose parents choose not to vaccinate versus children whose parents do. The latter would be easier to do but wouldn't tell us much.
Why do you assume that? What would be the harm in trying? NOT doing these kinds of studies isn't helping anyone, and raises a lot of questions.
I question what the medical community puts out there, but I also question what those on the other end of the spectrum put out there as well. I'm wary of extremists and think there's a lot of crap information out there.
I think this is what makes vax decision even harder for most parents. You don't know who to listen to. In the end I think one has to decide these things yourself. I don't think recognizing possible vax safety issues necessarily prevents one from vaccinating. The risk/benefit is personal call. I think we should share info here about those vax safety issues because they do exist, and legitimate sources have written about them.
Personally, I try to not put up links from mercola, w****, anti-vax blogs, etc. While their info may not be bad, (or good either), it doesn't do much to further the arguments around here when the info will automatically be dismissed. If their info is good, you can usually get the original link to where the info was originally published.
I wish more hcps would take a more Dr. Sears-ish attitude, and at least recongize that vax *may* have issues, or that it is not fully known, and parents should be able to make decisions about sel/del/non (as opposed to how very often vax concerns get glossed over or patients get kicked out of practice). I also get a little bit more upset when I feel that qualified hcps or official health orgs are lying to me than some random "dr" marketing some random alt. health thing on the internet.
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