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Misleading reports about autism data - Page 23  

post #441 of 586

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Edited by AbbyGrant - 4/25/12 at 7:31pm
post #442 of 586
Bokonon, I also know autistic children and their parents. I work with autistic children daily, albeit fairly high-functioning autistic children - it's a side effect of my job not my main focus. I don't generally discuss the causes of autism in face-to-face conversation. But if a parent asked my opinion, I would be honest and I would explain my reasoning.

The onset of autism is observable, but you cannot see the cause with your eyes. You cannot look at a child, or even at a child's behavior over time, and definitively say what caused a disorder the child is suffering from. That has been tried - that is why, back in the day before autism was properly studied, autism was blamed on "refrigerator mothers." It's why people once thought mice spontaneously generated from piles of rags. It is why people used to think that mercury cured syphilis. The list of things people erroneously believed because they SAW them with their EYES is enormous.

Expensive things like medical research have opportunity costs. Opportunity cost means that money and time that is spent on one study cannot be spent on another. Sometimes, that opportunity cost is worthwhile. However, once a conclusion has been replicated many times, it becomes a waste of money to continue to replicate it.

And yes, I believe the straight up vax vs no vax comparison is both unethical and unnecessary. The question has been explored and answered in other ways.
post #443 of 586
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

.

The onset of autism is observable, but you cannot see the cause with your eyes. You cannot look at a child, or even at a child's behavior over time, and definitively say what caused a disorder the child is suffering from..

I would like you to explain, then, the before-and-after video so many parents have of their child the day before a vaccine visit--smiling, joking, clearly talking, engaged child with good eye contact and appropriate response to parent's voice--and the day after the vaccine visit--spinning, flapping, flailing, screaming child, often with red, swollen face, NO eye contact, no response to parent's voice whatsoever.

Also please explain the sudden onset of eve bowel disorder that often accompanies these reactions--and the fact that the child is never normal again.

In this day and age of electronic records, it's ridiculous for you to claim that parents don't see the early signs of autism, or that the descent into autism, for this kids, occurred "sometime around the time of vaccination.". Too many parents have video PROOF of a sudden, enormous developmental regression and an equally sudden onset of medical problems (bowel disorders, food allergies, autoimmune disorders, etc). You can go back and point out teeny weeny little red flags from an earlier age--but all you are proving is that there is an identifiable subset WHO REACTED TO THE VACCINE, AND WHOSE REACTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. You have in no way proved that those children would have developed autism anyway.

And, based on the autism rates from the years when the vaccine schedule was a small fraction of what is today, and based on the autism rates from countries with fewer and later vaccines, it is obvious that they would not have.
post #444 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

I would like you to explain, then, the before-and-after video so many parents have of their child the day before a vaccine visit--smiling, joking, clearly talking, engaged child with good eye contact and appropriate response to parent's voice--and the day after the vaccine visit--spinning, flapping, flailing, screaming child, often with red, swollen face, NO eye contact, no response to parent's voice whatsoever.
Also please explain the sudden onset of eve bowel disorder that often accompanies these reactions--and the fact that the child is never normal again.
In this day and age of electronic records, it's ridiculous for you to claim that parents don't see the early signs of autism, or that the descent into autism, for this kids, occurred "sometime around the time of vaccination.". Too many parents have video PROOF of a sudden, enormous developmental regression and an equally sudden onset of medical problems (bowel disorders, food allergies, autoimmune disorders, etc). You can go back and point out teeny weeny little red flags from an earlier age--but all you are proving is that there is an identifiable subset WHO REACTED TO THE VACCINE, AND WHOSE REACTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. You have in no way proved that those children would have developed autism anyway.
And, based on the autism rates from the years when the vaccine schedule was a small fraction of what is today, and based on the autism rates from countries with fewer and later vaccines, it is obvious that they would not have.

 

ooh, ohh, me! I know (hand raised)

 

"studies have proved there is no evidence vax cause autism. anecdotal, coincidental, or maybe they did have some some type of vax reaction but that is not proof it caused autism."

 

The last one is how the compensated injuries which include ASD dianoses fly over... recognizing and awarding for the seizure/brain damage but not the ASD

 

Quote:

#12 Lassiter (1996) “Respondent argues that Eric’s current behavioral manifestations and mental retardation ‘fit the pattern of autistic spectrum disorders with severe mental retardation.’ Dr. Spiro summarizes: “This child had a [DPT-related febrile] reaction following his DPT booster, but, it is clear that he currently fits into the autistic spectrum disorder with retardation.” 

 

#16 Freeman (2003) “It was noted at the hearing that Kienan’s neurologic disorder has features that might cause it to be labeled as “atypical autism,” a condition within the category of “autism spectrum disorder.” I note, however, that even assuming that Kienan’s disorder is correctly classified with the “atypical autism” category, that is essentially irrelevant to my ruling concerning the entitlement issue in this case. As Dr. Kinsbourne explained, Kienan’s autistic type features seem to be a result of the brain damage that caused his severe mental retardation. As Dr. Kinsbourne further explained, brain damage is one of the possible causes of autism. Thus, I cannot see why the fact that Kienan’s disorder may fall within the autism spectrum has any substantial relevance to the question of what caused Kienan’s seizure disorder and mental retardation.”

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

 

post #445 of 586
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

And yes, I say "Sorry for what you've been through, and I know I wasn't there, but you are wrong about what happened."


My children all had varying severe reactions to vaccines--reactions that were eventually diagnosed and documented by mainstream MDs.

And the only thing worse than seeing vaccine-induced seizure/encephalopathy in a 2-month-old is seeing/hearing statements like yours.
post #446 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

My children all had varying severe reactions to vaccines--reactions that were eventually diagnosed and documented by mainstream MDs.
And the only thing worse than seeing vaccine-induced seizure/encephalopathy in a 2-month-old is seeing/hearing statements like yours.

 

hug2.gif

post #447 of 586
Studies in Britain, where they have significantly fewer vaccines than us, show the autism rate there is around 1%, roughly the same as it is here. Also, that rate was consistent across age groups, whether you were 8 or 80, contradicting the idea that autism has gotten more prevalent. Earlier someone posted a study comparing vaccinated on schedule vs delayed children and the rate and age of onset for autism was the same. Prevalence rates for Sweden, where they have even fewer vaccines, we're .8%, again, not that far off from us.

http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2011/11/autism-prevalence-in-gothenburg-sweden.html
post #448 of 586
Autism rates in Japan also pretty close to ours, even though they have way fewer vaccines. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan.html
post #449 of 586

Taximom, for years people CLEARLY SAW WITH THEIR EYES that the sun revolved around the earth.  Every day!  How could you argue that they had it wrong?  How can you deny that the sun appeared over one side of the planet in the morning and disappeared over the other side at night?  How could you explain the way they CLEARLY SAW AND RECORDED WITH MANY, MANY PICTURES that they meticulously drew and checked and compared with other people's meticulous drawings if the sun and stars were not, in fact, revolving around the earth?  Those people were not stupid.  But they were misled.  By their eyes.  

 

No video can show what is happening inside a child.  Videos do not record structures in the brain or physical and/or biochemical mechanisms affecting those structures (or the structures in the gut, for that matter).  They do not record the child's DNA and the genes that DNA codes for or how the genetic make-up of that child interacts with the environment to produce the biochemical and neural stimuli that control behavior.  

 

All a video of an autistic child shows is an autistic child.  I do not have an explanation.  More research needs to be done to find an explanation.  There is no evidence that the cause is vaccines.  That means we need more research on other possible causes.  Asking me (or anyone else) to explain WHAT THE HECK IT IS IF IT'S NOT VACCINES!!!!! is not the answer.  There are dozens of studies on vaccines that have yielded no evidence.  After dozens of studies on the possibility of a link between vaccines and autism . . . we don't know what causes autism.  

 

Back in the day, children got fewer vaccines, but more antigens.  The quantities of adjuvants and antigens involved in vaccines are smaller than the quantities children encounter in ordinary daily life. Even if you continue to feel that vaccines are suspect, the methods we have available have yielded no evidence of that.  If it was as simple as looking at a video of a kid with autism - well, there's a lot of that video around and few ethical issues with making more.   The reason videos of autistic children haven't answered the question is because evidence of autistic behavior is not evidence of the cause of autism.  It's time to look at something else.  

post #450 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Studies in Britain, where they have significantly fewer vaccines than us, show the autism rate there is around 1%, roughly the same as it is here. Also, that rate was consistent across age groups, whether you were 8 or 80, contradicting the idea that autism has gotten more prevalent. Earlier someone posted a study comparing vaccinated on schedule vs delayed children and the rate and age of onset for autism was the same. Prevalence rates for Sweden, where they have even fewer vaccines, we're .8%, again, not that far off from us.
http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2011/11/autism-prevalence-in-gothenburg-sweden.html

 

since most (all?) people here are saying that they also think other genetic/environmental factors come into play here (no one has said ONLY vax cause autism)... I don't think we can look at just autism rates in different countries. There may be other genetic/environmental factors occuring in different frequencies in different places. Is there also any differentiation in diagnosis criteria?

post #451 of 586
The point was made that the rates were lower in countries with fewer vaccines. Just pointing out that that's not true.

Norway? Also not that different than ours.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110228090611.htm
post #452 of 586

 

 

Quote:
And the only thing worse than seeing vaccine-induced seizure/encephalopathy in a 2-month-old is seeing/hearing statements like yours.

My sympathy for your troubles and your son's condition, Taximom.  I'm talking about vaccines and autism, not vaccines and seizures.  

post #453 of 586

banghead.gif We are going around in circles again. At some point you are going to have to accept that there IS disagreement over this.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Taximom, for years people CLEARLY SAW WITH THEIR EYES that the sun revolved around the earth.  Every day!  How could you argue that they had it wrong?  How can you deny that the sun appeared over one side of the planet in the morning and disappeared over the other side at night?  How could you explain the way they CLEARLY SAW AND RECORDED WITH MANY, MANY PICTURES that they meticulously drew and checked and compared with other people's meticulous drawings if the sun and stars were not, in fact, revolving around the earth?  Those people were not stupid.  But they were misled.  By their eyes.  

 

No video can show what is happening inside a child.  Videos do not record structures in the brain or physical and/or biochemical mechanisms affecting those structures (or the structures in the gut, for that matter).  They do not record the child's DNA and the genes that DNA codes for or how the genetic make-up of that child interacts with the environment to produce the biochemical and neural stimuli that control behavior.  

 

All a video of an autistic child shows is an autistic child.  I do not have an explanation.  More research needs to be done to find an explanation.  There is no evidence that the cause is vaccines.  That means we need more research on other possible causes.  Asking me (or anyone else) to explain WHAT THE HECK IT IS IF IT'S NOT VACCINES!!!!! is not the answer.  There are dozens of studies on vaccines that have yielded no evidence.  After dozens of studies on the possibility of a link between vaccines and autism . . . we don't know what causes autism.  

dozens of studies with problems that are not sufficient in closing the case here

 

Back in the day, children got fewer vaccines, but more antigens.

more vaccines = more adjuvants and other special ingredients

 

 The quantities of adjuvants and antigens involved in vaccines are smaller than the quantities children encounter in ordinary daily life.

Vax antigens and adjuvants enter body bypassing all immune protection mechanisms. When is my kid going to come across ethyl mercurcy in ordinary daily life? formaldehyde? dna from a fetus aborted decades ago? Where is the safety guideline for how much mercury or aluminum  my child can safely be exposed to... and a number for fetus/infants/children, not adults?

 

Even if you continue to feel that vaccines are suspect, the methods we have available have yielded no evidence of that.  If it was as simple as looking at a video of a kid with autism - well, there's a lot of that video around and few ethical issues with making more.   The reason videos of autistic children haven't answered the question is because evidence of autistic behavior is not evidence of the cause of autism.  It's time to look at something else.

Who are you talking to? random people on the internet? I really, really doubt any of us are significantly threatening the vax program, you need not worry. We saw there is no large amount of your tax payer money going to this? I'm sorry Stik, I don't think you are exactly going to change minds here. You may have to accept that some people are going to disagree with you and continue to state that they believe there is a possibility of a vax/autism link. I don't think there is much you can do about it.

 

 

post #454 of 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Taximom, for years people CLEARLY SAW WITH THEIR EYES that the sun revolved around the earth.  Every day!  How could you argue that they had it wrong?  How can you deny that the sun appeared over one side of the planet in the morning and disappeared over the other side at night?  How could you explain the way they CLEARLY SAW AND RECORDED WITH MANY, MANY PICTURES that they meticulously drew and checked and compared with other people's meticulous drawings if the sun and stars were not, in fact, revolving around the earth?  Those people were not stupid.  But they were misled.  By their eyes.  

 

You keep saying this. For years people also followed the advice of physicians, science, the medicine of the day. People thought bloodletting was a great idea. That God/Devil, odors, or that body's humours out of balance was cause of Bubonic plague. 

That certain drugs and practices were totally a-ok/necessary: twilight birth, DES, Thalidomide, routine tonsillectomies, circumcision. Breastfeeding bad and solids as soon as possible for baby. Cigarettes? Those people were not stupid. But they were misled... by the science of their time.


Edited by slmommy - 4/25/12 at 7:33pm
post #455 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Earlier someone posted a study comparing vaccinated on schedule vs delayed children and the rate and age of onset for autism was the same. 

 

Nitpicking - but this is not strictly true.

 

The study was about 1000 people, so if autism was in 1% of the population, we are looking at about 10 people.  I sort of agree with you that small studies can sometimes have valuable results, but 10 is really small.

 

Moreover the test did not look at autism, per se, but other neurological developments.  General knowledge, cognitive abilities tests, etc.

 

There is more - but I will leave it at that.  Suffice to say, in my opinion,  the study does not prove that the age for onset of autism (which the study did not even mention) is the same in delayed versus on schedule.  I will admit, my look at the study was somewhat cursory. Interested parties can decide for themselves, of course.  

 

Here is the study in question:  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/6/1134/T1.expansion.html

 

 

 

post #456 of 586

I just wanted to add that I am in the middle of reading the book "Emperor of Maladies" which is about the history of cancer.  I am up to the chapter about the 1950-1970s when all leading doctors, surgeons, oncologists, and even the surgeon generals of the time said without hesitation that smoking does NOT have any link to lung cancer.  It was the little doctors, the medical students and interns, as well as concerned public who kept bringing the link back to public attention and asking for more and better quality research.  Fast forward to today and we KNOW without a doubt that the link is definitive.

 

It really made me think about this debate going on (vaccines linked to autism) so I wanted to post.  I don't personally feel strongly either way (vaccines do or don't cause autism) but I feel there is enough question on the subject that (among other reasons) I chose to hold off vaccinating my daughter because of the frank uncertainty.

post #457 of 586
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

My sympathy for your troubles and your son's condition, Taximom.  I'm talking about vaccines and autism, not vaccines and seizures.  

 

There is a significant subset of autistic children who had seizure reactions to vaccines, BEFORE their descent into autism. This is the subset you pretend does not exist, the subset who should be studied for a vaccine/autism link.  This is also the subset whose parents were told (as I originally was) that vaccines do not cause seizures, let alone autism, that their child would have had a seizure that day anyway, even if they'd never had one before or since.

post #458 of 586
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Taximom, for years people CLEARLY SAW WITH THEIR EYES that the sun revolved around the earth.  Every day!  How could you argue that they had it wrong?  How can you deny that the sun appeared over one side of the planet in the morning and disappeared over the other side at night?  How could you explain the way they CLEARLY SAW AND RECORDED WITH MANY, MANY PICTURES that they meticulously drew and checked and compared with other people's meticulous drawings if the sun and stars were not, in fact, revolving around the earth?  Those people were not stupid.  But they were misled.  By their eyes.  

 

This is insulting.  What people thought they saw in terms of planetary rotation 400 years ago "with their eyes" has nothing to do with video evidence of a child before and after vaccines. Shame on you for belittling the parents who do have video evidence.

 

No video can show what is happening inside a child.  Videos do not record structures in the brain or physical and/or biochemical mechanisms affecting those structures (or the structures in the gut, for that matter).  They do not record the child's DNA and the genes that DNA codes for or how the genetic make-up of that child interacts with the environment to produce the biochemical and neural stimuli that control behavior.  

 

All a video of an autistic child shows is an autistic child.  I do not have an explanation.  More research needs to be done to find an explanation.  There is no evidence that the cause is vaccines.  That means we need more research on other possible causes.  Asking me (or anyone else) to explain WHAT THE HECK IT IS IF IT'S NOT VACCINES!!!!! is not the answer.  There are dozens of studies on vaccines that have yielded no evidence.  After dozens of studies on the possibility of a link between vaccines and autism . . . we don't know what causes autism.

 

Wrong.  Video of a normally developing child the day before vaccines, and the same child, clearly autistic, with severe neurodevelopmental problems the day after vaccines is similar to video of a healthy child before eating a peanut, and the same child covered in hives with throat swelling within a minute of eating the peanut.

 

Back in the day, children got fewer vaccines, but more antigens.  The quantities of adjuvants and antigens involved in vaccines are smaller than the quantities children encounter in ordinary daily life. Even if you continue to feel that vaccines are suspect, the methods we have available have yielded no evidence of that.  If it was as simple as looking at a video of a kid with autism - well, there's a lot of that video around and few ethical issues with making more.   The reason videos of autistic children haven't answered the question is because evidence of autistic behavior is not evidence of the cause of autism.  It's time to look at something else.  

 

You keep repeating the same strawman argument, but you've convinced nobody, because your logic is so obviously flawed.  It is very poor science indeed to compare an ingested ingredient with an injected one. 

 

The reason videos of autistic children haven't answered "the question" is that you and most of the scientific community are asking the wrong question.  Instead of looking for "the cause" of autism, we should be looking for the CAUSES of autism, as they relate to different subsets.

 

Just because one group of autistic children had no reactions to vaccines does not prove that vaccines didn't cause autism in the group who did have reactions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #459 of 586

wrong thread...sorry


Edited by AbbyGrant - 4/26/12 at 5:59am
post #460 of 586
It is really not poor science to compare injected and ingested ingredients. The body handles both fairly well. I always hear that, but it isn't true and no one can explain to me what the alleged difference is.

The digestive system is not the only way the body has of dealing with foreign substances. Children accumulate FAR more aluminum, for example, through ingested sources than they do from injected ones. Aluminum levels in their blood are predominantly from ingested aluminum not injected aluminum. There is no measurable increase in aluminum in plasma after and injection with an adjuvant.
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