or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Misleading reports about autism data
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Misleading reports about autism data - Page 4  

post #61 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

    

 

     

       Quote:

 

And I find it equally disgusting when autism is used to further an anti-vaccine, anti-"big-pharma," anti-western medicine, anti-whatever agenda. I think the reason the issue probably gets marginalized is because some of the more vocal opponents do come off as conspiracy theorists or worse yet have a financial interest in promoting the idea.  There's a lot of money to made off "curing" children of autism supposedly caused by vaccines. There's an entire industry based on squeezing money out of desperate parents, and it's based on pseudoscience, and that's putting it kindly. It's probably hard to hear the voices of reason underneath all that. 

 

The biggest group looking to make money off autism is the pharma industry. It certainly isn't the relatively small group of DAN! doctors or the supplement industry. So it looks like big pharma is about to cash in on all those desperate parents, with their own brand of junk science.

 

New Autism Research Program: Big Pharma Profit Center With Taxpayers Help

 

 

 

 

Quote:

The European Union has partnered with pharmaceutical corporations and Autism Speaks for the sole purpose of developing drugs to cram down the throats of autistics. Rather than doing honest research into the causes of this devastating condition, money is being poured into finding ways to suppress its symptoms.

A new organization, European Autism Interventions – A Multicentre Study for Developing New Medications  (EU-AIMS), has been formed to benefit Big Pharma’s bottom line at the expense of autistics. The plan is to simply accept that autism is here, in spite of its nonexistence or near nonexistence a few decades ago. The organization has no interest in autism prevention.

 

The goals of the collaboration are:

 

To develop and validate "translation research approaches" for the advancement of novel therapies. (ie development of drug therapies - who stands to make money there?). 

 

To set new standards in research and clinical development to aid the drug discovery process. (More drugs, more money for big pharma).

 

Develop sites across Europe for clinical trials on autism and, create an "interactive platform for ASD professionals and patients". (Research and market development opportunities for these new drugs)

 

 

This is all about profit. Autsim is a huge potential market and profit center for big pharma and they are poised to make the most of the 1 in 88 children with ASD, and with the rate rising it is only going to become an even bigger market for the "therapies".

 

The three groups involved in this collaboration are the pharmaceutical companies, universities and research centers and Autism Speaks. The pharma industry and the research intitutions are benefiting by the tune of  €29.6 million (US$38.7 million). As the article states:

 

 

 

Quote:

Researchers are receiving a nice boost in income and pharmaceutical corporations are anticipating more drugs with their associated profits. But they aren’t the primary source of funding. And neither is Autism Speaks, though they’re giving $1 million.

 

No the primary funder is the European tax payer.

 

 

 

Quote:
The European taxpayer is the big philanthropist, through the Innovative Medicines Initiative Joint Undertaking, which is funded primarily by the EU government, with additional funds from the European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations, which of course, exists for the purpose of promoting Big Pharma’s bottom line.

 

post #62 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

 

I wish more hcps would take a more Dr. Sears-ish attitude, and at least recongize that vax *may* have issues, or that it is not fully known, and parents should be able to make decisions about sel/del. I also get a little bit more upset when I feel that qualified hcps or official health orgs are lying to me than when some random "dr" marketing some random alt. health thing on the internet. 

 

I am fortunate that our pediatrician is not just accepting of our decision to not vax/delay vaxes, but supports and even encourages it. 

post #63 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

 

And I find it equally disgusting when autism is used to further an anti-vaccine, anti-"big-pharma," anti-western medicine, anti-whatever agenda. I think the reason the issue probably gets marginalized is because some of the more vocal opponents do come off as conspiracy theorists or worse yet have a financial interest in promoting the idea.  There's a lot of money to made off "curing" children of autism supposedly caused by vaccines. There's an entire industry based on squeezing money out of desperate parents, and it's based on pseudoscience, and that's putting it kindly. It's probably hard to hear the voices of reason underneath all that. 

 

There is a lot of volatile emotions on both sides of the vaccine debate, and they are never more volatile than when talking about autism.

 

It is the medical communities job, though, to look through the high emotions and controversy, and search for truth.

 

I have no issues (nada) with a parent on a forum who cannot see past their POV.  I am sure I have been guilty of that myself on occasion, lol.  We all have our own baggage, histories, etc.  I do have issues with medical professionals who wear blinders, though.  It is their job to investigate, be accountable, etc.  No medical program should be above scrutiny - and sometimes it seems that the vax program is.  That is not good science. 

 

 

post #64 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

 

Why do you assume that?  What would be the harm in trying?  NOT doing these kinds of studies isn't helping anyone, and raises a lot of questions.

 


Why do I assume that?  Because there are a lot of variables that come into play when it comes to parents that choose to vaccinate and those that don't. It would be damn near impossible to factor out all those out.  A non-randomized study would be less reliable to say the least than a randomized one (which would be unethical).  Whoever lost so to speak could poke a million holes in it. 

 

post #65 of 586

       Quote:

Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

I wish more hcps would take a more Dr. Sears-ish attitude, and at least recongize that vax *may* have issues, or that it is not fully known, and parents should be able to make decisions about sel/del/non (as opposed to how very often vax concerns get glossed over or patients get kicked out of practice). I also get a little bit more upset when I feel that qualified hcps or official health orgs are lying to me than some random "dr" marketing some random alt. health thing on the internet. 

 

I guess I've never felt I was being lied to my my children's pediatrician or even the official health organizations about vaccines. Not saying that doctors are incapable of lying, but my kids doctor is pretty awesome and is fully supportive of my choices.  As far as the AAP and the CDC and such, while I have felt they have underestimated my intelligence (probably because they are preaching to the masses), and I do question some of their recommendations, I've never felt they were "lying."  Multiple large organizations "lying" would involve a conspiracy, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But when some "random dr" on the internet is lying to steal money from desperate parents, now that pisses me off.

post #66 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

I've never felt they were "lying."  A large organization lying would involve a conspiracy, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

 

I don't think you have to out and out lie to be deemed untrustworthy.  Lack of transparency, conflict of interest on committees, etc, are all concerning.

 

I am not sure why you (and prosciencemom) brought the word "conspiracy theory" into this discussion.

 

It is a little dismissive and over-generalising. 

 

It is very possible to question vaccines and their  possible role in autism without being a conspiracy theorist.

 

I should be able to raise a concern (vaccines possible role in autism) without being branded a conspiracy theorist.

 

(I would also like to add that I have found this discussion very interesting and, for the most part, civil  (Yay MDC!) I hope we can keep it that way for the sake of the topic.  Abbymom (or anyone else) I am really interested in hearing any other potential environmental causes for autism.  For personal reasons, it is a topic close to my heart)

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #67 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 

I don't think you have to out and out lie to be deemed untrustworthy.  Lack of transparency, conflict of interest on committees, etc, are all concerning.

 

I am not sure why you (and prosciencemom) brought the word "conspiracy theory" into this discussion.

 

It is a little dismissive and over-generalising. 

 

It is very possible to question vaccines and their  possible role in autism without being a conspiracy theorist.

 

I should be able to raise a concern (vaccines possible role in autism) without being branded a conspiracy theorist.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Being concerned about children's health does not make one a conspiracy theorist, and marginalizing vaccine questioners as such is offensive and small-minded.

post #68 of 586

I am a Medical Microbiology major currently in my senior year. I am taking an ethics class right now and we have heavily been discussing the "issues" people have with vaccinations. I was reading all your comments, and while I am not a mother yet, I will have my children vaccinated, even if thimerosal is used. The levels of mercury in fish are much higher, and the recommended amounts that pregnant women should not exceed are also higher. The studies you have said they should conduct, they have. Many, actually, look up articles in science journals, survey journals, they are all readily available to the public. If you want to make a wise decision and know all the facts you need to also take into consideration what the alternative diseases may do to your child and how easily transferable they are to other children, or adults, or elderly people who have lowered immune response. Each disease is different, knowing the history of the disease is important, where we are today with the disease, and what kind of vaccine is it. Is the vaccine a "live attenuated" vaccine, and what are those risks, or is it a killed vaccine, and if so how much protection does it really provide. These are the real issues to think about and take into consideration. Not weather the CDC is lying and conspiring against us. Thimerosal is used as an antibacterial agent, to keep your vaccine uncontaminated by other microorganisms, a wide spectrum antibiotic such as penicillin would be effective and MORE cost efficient than thimerosal (it is NOT cheaper), the only problem with that is now we have super bugs that are resistant to such antibiotics. They (CDC, FDA, etc.) on multiple occasions have shown tons of data on multiple studies conducted that show NO correlation between thimerosal and mercury poisoning, autism, etc. The real vaccine issues lye in the issues I stated before. Legitimate issues can be seen like, why are we using eggs to cultivate influenza for flu vaccines, when Europe has changed to cell culture? What is the benefit? Or how about besides the fact that children who are not vaccinated against certain diseases are at risk for diseases that cause pox, rash, pulmonary syndrome, swelling of the brain, paralysis, and death; those children may be a risk to other children, pregnant women, elderly, immune compromised and even children who are vaccinated! Those are just some things that come to my mind when thinking about whether or not my children will be vaccinated. 

post #69 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily St Onge View Post

I am a Medical Microbiology major currently in my senior year. I am taking an ethics class right now and we have heavily been discussing the "issues" people have with vaccinations. I was reading all your comments, and while I am not a mother yet, I will have my children vaccinated, even if thimerosal is used. The levels of mercury in fish are much higher, and the recommended amounts that pregnant women should not exceed are also higher. The studies you have said they should conduct, they have. Many, actually, look up articles in science journals, survey journals, they are all readily available to the public. If you want to make a wise decision and know all the facts you need to also take into consideration what the alternative diseases may do to your child and how easily transferable they are to other children, or adults, or elderly people who have lowered immune response. Each disease is different, knowing the history of the disease is important, where we are today with the disease, and what kind of vaccine is it. Is the vaccine a "live attenuated" vaccine, and what are those risks, or is it a killed vaccine, and if so how much protection does it really provide. These are the real issues to think about and take into consideration. Not weather the CDC is lying and conspiring against us. Thimerosal is used as an antibacterial agent, to keep your vaccine uncontaminated by other microorganisms, a wide spectrum antibiotic such as penicillin would be effective and MORE cost efficient than thimerosal (it is NOT cheaper), the only problem with that is now we have super bugs that are resistant to such antibiotics. They (CDC, FDA, etc.) on multiple occasions have shown tons of data on multiple studies conducted that show NO correlation between thimerosal and mercury poisoning, autism, etc. The real vaccine issues lye in the issues I stated before. Legitimate issues can be seen like, why are we using eggs to cultivate influenza for flu vaccines, when Europe has changed to cell culture? What is the benefit? Or how about besides the fact that children who are not vaccinated against certain diseases are at risk for diseases that cause pox, rash, pulmonary syndrome, swelling of the brain, paralysis, and death; those children may be a risk to other children, pregnant women, elderly, immune compromised and even children who are vaccinated! Those are just some things that come to my mind when thinking about whether or not my children will be vaccinated. 

 

With all due respect, those of us posting in this thread KNOW about what issues to think about and take into consideration.  Many of us have seen our children have severe reactions to vaccination.  Most of us here have spent more hours than you have been in college studying all sides of the vaccine issue.

 

So I'm sorry if I really take no stock in what a college senior with no children has to say about the vaccine issue.  You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

post #70 of 586

      Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I don't think you have to out and out lie to be deemed untrustworthy.  Lack of transparency, conflict of interest on committees, etc, are all concerning.

 

 

But the word "lying" was used.  shrug.gif If someone said these organizations were "untrustworthy" due to "lack of transparency, conflict of interest on committees, etc," I wouldn't have brought it up.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am not sure why you (and prosciencemom) brought the word "conspiracy theory" into this discussion.

 

It is a little dismissive and over-generalising. 

 

It is very possible to question vaccines and their  possible role in autism without being a conspiracy theorist.

 

I should be able to raise a concern (vaccines possible role in autism) without being branded a conspiracy theorist.

 

 

I didn't bring it into the conversation.  It was already being discussed.  And I do agree that just questioning does not make one a conspiracy theorist. I thought that would have been apparent from my post and apologize if it was not.  My point was I think the conspiracy theorists detract from real issues and do a real disservice.

 

I have to go focus on being a parent now (shame on mommy for spending time on the interwebz) and go take my son to therapy. I'll try to come back later.

post #71 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

 My point was I think the conspiracy theorists detract from real issues and do a real disservice.

 

 

 

The problem is that many people DO deem even casual vaccine questioners "conspiracy theorists" and summarily dismiss anything they have to say.

 

I would also posit that die-hard vaccine apologists detract from the real issues as well.

post #72 of 586

I stumbled upon this thread and noticed a glaring absence of information.  No where in this entire post (including all the threads) has anyone ever mentioned the controversy and lack of scientific study done on the inclusion of aborted fetal cell cultures (human DNA) in our vaccines. 

 

 

Many parents choose not to use some vaccines because of the aborted fetal cell line ingredients.  Beyond moral objections to the use of this material there is a credible scientific theory that posits the inclusion of human DNA fragments into injections for neurologically developing infants is dangerous.  A brief synopsis of the theory is below and much more is linked below or can be found throughwww.soundchoice.org. I find the exclusion of this information is usually related to unfortunate journalistic confirmation bias or plain old ignorance.  The latter is excusable while the former is not.  The general public should be fully informed. 
 
 
"SCPI conducts research into the biologic and physiologic consequences of using aborted fetal material for drug, vaccine and cosmetic production.

Our research focus is on genomic instability created by the presence of residual contaminating short human DNA fragments and viruses.  Drugs and vaccines are too large to produce in a test tube, and therefore, they must be manufactured using cell lines.  The final products contain contaminants from the cell line used to manufacture the drug or vaccine.  When animal cell lines are utilized, these contaminants are recognized by our immune systems as ‘foreign’ and are eliminated from our bodies.  However, when aborted human fetal or other primitive human cell lines are used, these contaminants have the potential to trigger auto-immune diseases or genomic instability.  When we inject our children or ourselves with aborted fetal producedvaccines, and when we use cosmetics made using aborted fetal cells, we are also injecting or transferring DNA and viruses from the aborted fetus that was used to create the manufacturing cell line."

JCI 2008 SCID gene therapy _ 4 of 9 develop cancer
post #73 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily St Onge View Post

 

 

The levels of mercury in fish are much higher, and the recommended amounts that pregnant women should not exceed are also higher.

 

There may or may not be differences in mercury that is ingested versus injected.  That may be something to look up for those facing decisions.  

 

 

The studies you have said they should conduct, they have. Many, actually, look up articles in science journals, survey journals, they are all readily available to the public.

 

Where?  Links, please.  

 

If you want to make a wise decision and know all the facts you need to also take into consideration what the alternative diseases may do to your child and how easily transferable they are to other children, or adults, or elderly people who have lowered immune response. Each disease is different, knowing the history of the disease is important, where we are today with the disease, and what kind of vaccine is it. Is the vaccine a "live attenuated" vaccine, and what are those risks, or is it a killed vaccine, and if so how much protection does it really provide. These are the real issues to think about and take into consideration.

 

I think most of us here know this.  It is good advice for a newbie, though.  

 

 

Not weather the CDC is lying and conspiring against us. Thimerosal is used as an antibacterial agent, to keep your vaccine uncontaminated by other microorganisms, a wide spectrum antibiotic such as penicillin would be effective and MORE cost efficient than thimerosal (it is NOT cheaper), the only problem with that is now we have super bugs that are resistant to such antibiotics. They (CDC, FDA, etc.) on multiple occasions have shown tons of data on multiple studies conducted that show NO correlation between thimerosal and mercury poisoning, autism, etc. The real vaccine issues lye in the issues I stated before. Legitimate issues can be seen like, why are we using eggs to cultivate influenza for flu vaccines, when Europe has changed to cell culture? What is the benefit? Or how about besides the fact that children who are not vaccinated against certain diseases are at risk for diseases that cause pox, rash, pulmonary syndrome, swelling of the brain, paralysis, and death; those children may be a risk to other children, pregnant women, elderly, immune compromised and even children who are vaccinated! Those are just some things that come to my mind when thinking about whether or not my children will be vaccinated. 

 

 All vaccines carry risks.  Here is a link from the CDC pages.http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm   It is a parents job to weigh the risks against the benefits of vaccines.  I think the bolded is somewhat fear mongering - with few exceptions, my child is more likely to have a serious reaction to a vaccine than to get the VPD and have a serious reaction to it, or pass it on.  Here are some CDC stats on disease prevalence and death rates from VPD's. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

 

post #74 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

 

With all due respect, those of us posting in this thread KNOW about what issues to think about and take into consideration.  Many of us have seen our children have severe reactions to vaccination.  Most of us here have spent more hours than you have been in college studying all sides of the vaccine issue.

 

So I'm sorry if I really take no stock in what a college senior with no children has to say about the vaccine issue.  You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

 

Wow, respect? I am a 30 year old woman and have spent a long time investing my time and energy into molecular sciences. I am not some 18 year old child who is just staring out. I have worked many hours with patients and people. I have heard many concerns and seen many "bad reactions". You asked for peoples opinions, so I gave mine, and you shoot me down because I say I am in college. This is what I spend all of the hours of almost every day investigating because I want parents, children and all people to be safe and healthy. I want to fight disease with everything I have, and help children to grow up and live long and healthy lives. I am in the lab working with all sorts of disease, learning how to make vaccines, and you think I don't have any idea what I am talking about? How many times have you worked with polio? Grown kidney cell? Lung cells? How many times have you made influenza vaccinations? I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of opinions and ideas. I am very sorry for sharing my opinion, I really didn't know just who I was talking to.

 

For anyone who has any interest in a good article on the issue:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/

post #75 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

      Quote:

 

But the word "lying" was used.  shrug.gif If someone said these organizations were "untrustworthy" due to "lack of transparency, conflict of interest on committees, etc," I wouldn't have brought it up.

 

I must have missed that.  It is a long thread.  Personally, I have no idea if they lie (and do not accuse anyone without proof).  I still don't trust them for reason explored upthread.

 

 

I didn't bring it into the conversation.  It was already being discussed.  And I do agree that just questioning does not make one a conspiracy theorist. I thought that would have been apparent from my post and apologize if it was not.  My point was I think the conspiracy theorists detract from real issues and do a real disservice.

 

It wasn't apparent to me, but honestly, I am a bit guarded on discussing vax issues and more likely to read negative intent when there was none. peace.gif

 

I have to go focus on being a parent now (shame on mommy for spending time on the interwebz) and go take my son to therapy. I'll try to come back later.

 

 

post #76 of 586

Well I tried to post some links to some journal articles on these researches, and the site said my response was being held for review or something. 

 

I will look into the mercury thing, that is great point! 

 

As for the fear mongering, that is not my intention. These are things I have seen and experienced, personally. 

The cdc link you gave shows all the death rates from vaccine preventable diseases. Also the data from 2008- to current show NA.?

post #77 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily St Onge View Post

Well I tried to post some links to some journal articles on these researches, and the site said my response was being held for review or something. 

 

I will look into the mercury thing, that is great point! 

 

As for the fear mongering, that is not my intention. These are things I have seen and experienced, personally. 

The cdc link you gave shows all the death rates from vaccine preventable diseases. Also the data from 2008- to current show NA.?

 

Off the top of my head, I do not think the data has changed much since 2008.  An exception might be pertussis - there was an outbreak, largely in California (and largely in the vaxxed community - not one of our more effective vaccines). CP might be another exception as the vaccine rate has risen.  Welcome to MDC!

post #78 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

 

With all due respect, those of us posting in this thread KNOW about what issues to think about and take into consideration.  Many of us have seen our children have severe reactions to vaccination.  Most of us here have spent more hours than you have been in college studying all sides of the vaccine issue.

 

So I'm sorry if I really take no stock in what a college senior with no children has to say about the vaccine issue.  You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

 

 

Wow, sorry to offend you so. So that you know, I am a 30 year old woman. I have been working in health care for quite some time. While I do have no children I have worked with many children and parents. I have spent many years and hours of my life invested into this subject and many other health issues. I have worked in the labs with many diseases such as polio, and I have seen the clinical effects of polio at a very personal level. I have seen children with some of these diseases. I have worked in the lab making influenza vaccines, grown lung and kidney tissues. I am not 18 and uneducated or experienced. My intention was not at all to anger or offend you, but to share an opinion from my perspective. I will be making some of these vaccines and doing some important studies in issues such as these. My intention is to hear concerns and other opinions to expand my own view and knowledge. I do feel I have some idea of what I am talking about, and I have very good intentions. I want to fight disease and help children to live long and healthy lives. I am married and have been looking forward to graduating because the first thing I want to do is become a Mother. So these are issues that are very important to me. 

post #79 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 

Off the top of my head, I do not think the data has changed much since 2008.  An exception might be pertussis - there was an outbreak, largely in California (and largely in the vaxxed community - not one of our more effective vaccines). CP might be another exception as the vaccine rate has risen.  Welcome to MDC!

No, definitely not one of our best vaccinations. And that is always in the back of my mind, the fact that there is no 100% certainty of protection with any vaccine. Also, these viruses and bacteria are constantly evolving to survive all of our tricks. And they evolve so fast. It is a continuous race. There is just so much to weigh in making the decision. 

 

Thanks for the welcome! 

 

Here is an interesting article, I would like to see what you think.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/

post #80 of 586

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily St Onge View Post

 

 

 

 My intention is to hear concerns and other opinions to expand my own view and knowledge. I do feel I have some idea of what I am talking about, and I have very good intentions. I want to fight disease and help children to live long and healthy lives. I am married and have been looking forward to graduating because the first thing I want to do is become a Mother. So these are issues that are very important to me. 

 

Something I would advise anyone planning to vax to do would be to spend some time on the selective and delayed board.

 

There are things you can do to lower the chances your child has a vax reaction even if you vax.  2 things off the top of my head are:

-do not give the MMR and varicella together

-do not give tylenol before and after vax.

 

Both are known to increase adverse reactions (mainstream sources for these 2).  

 

Dr. Sears has an alternative vax schedule and it is worth taking a look at - all vaxes are done, but in a  more spaced out way.

 

As a mother, you are going to want to know that you minimised all chances of harm coming to your child.

 

 

 

 

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations Debate
This thread is locked  
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Debate › Misleading reports about autism data