Jezebel likes formula samples; please respond - Page 2

[lunarlady]

In my area they don't give formula at the hospital. I had two home births, but guess what...I stll ended up with formula samples I didn't want and didn't need. How? They mailed them to my door, slipped them in with my diapers/wipes, and even from the pediatrican's office! I agree that having formula is a temptation to mothers best avoided, but I don't see stopping hospital freebies as the answer to that problem.

And for the record, not all women can breastfeed. A dear friend of mine became very ill at the end of her pregnancy. Right after baby came they had to put on some hardcore medications known to transfer into breast milk and be hazardous to baby. So she had to use formula. For both her and baby's health, formula was better. Another friend adopted a newborn at birth. Formula fed again.

Formula isn't the devil. Sure, breastmilk is usually best, but nothing in life is black and white. Sometimes formula is the right choice for mom and baby.

[Viola]

"Is it merely a coincidence that diapering is a matter of interest to both parents, regardless of gender, while the burdens of breastfeeding fall solely on the shoulders (or chests) of women? It's interesting to know that people aren't as concerned about regulating the kinds of parenting choices that could inconvenience men."

What a disappointing argument.  And Gestapo--I guess that makes a nice change from the usual name, Nazi.

 

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by lunarlady 

In my area they don't give formula at the hospital. I had two home births, but guess what...I stll ended up with formula samples I didn't want and didn't need. How? They mailed them to my door, slipped them in with my diapers/wipes, and even from the pediatrican's office! I agree that having formula is a temptation to mothers best avoided, but I don't see stopping hospital freebies as the answer to that problem.
And for the record, not all women can breastfeed. A dear friend of mine became very ill at the end of her pregnancy. Right after baby came they had to put on some hardcore medications known to transfer into breast milk and be hazardous to baby. So she had to use formula. For both her and baby's health, formula was better. Another friend adopted a newborn at birth. Formula fed again.
Formula isn't the devil. Sure, breastmilk is usually best, but nothing in life is black and white. Sometimes formula is the right choice for mom and baby.

But I don't see here anyone advocating for women not having the choice of formula.    Can you tell me the benefits to mothers and babies from free samples given out at time of discharge?

My last birth was a hombirth and I didn't get the samples.  

[habitat]

Originally Posted by Maria Van 

women in third world countries manage to breastfeed, are they privileged as well? I didn't say it wasn't hard at times, but so is every part of parenting. Sooner or later you have to fight for your kids and for what you believe is right. I know people who breastfeed and I know people who don't, and I hear a lot of different reasons why but mostly it comes down to motivation. If its important to you you will find a way, if its not you buy a can of formula. Its a decision not a privilege.

and Partaria i'm sure if some fantastic lactation consultant wanted to offer free coupons for her services the hospitals would be happy to pass them out. This is not a case of hospitals choosing formula over breastmilk, the formula companies give the hospitals formula. It isn't charged to the hospital or to your insurance. It would be fantastic if health insurance companies would cover a couple lactation consultant visits at home, but thats a seperate issue. Insisting that the samples be disallowed assumes that we cannot make our own choices and is just as bad as all the ridiculous republican mandates about contraception. If the companies want to provide them and some new moms want to accept them how on earth does that impact you or your children? Let them have it if they want it.

UGH, the "women in third world countries do it so you can to" guilt trip. Women in the "third world" often don't have an option. Either formula isn't available or it's too expensive. Not to mention that many (not all) of these women are in other sketchy situations like being forced into both marriage and pregnancy. And the babies who are given this breastmilk are often sick for a myriad of other reasons, which I would venture to guess don't exclude the mental/emotional status of their mothers and families. Women in the third world suffer NOT ONLY from their sucky social status in many places, but also from the over exploitation of their resources by those of us on this end of the spectrum. Many of these women come from a long history of engrained and ruthless social patriarchy that makes them the possessions of their husbands and their state. It's not all roses and faeries for breastfeeding women who aren't white, and whose nations aren't imperialist superpowers. And while I'm not keen on running around and arrogantly proclaiming my white, western, economically privileged shiznatch (ie: "omg ladiez of color in exploited nations, look how I'm SO much more LIBERATED than you"), I also think that you're using the wrong model to make an argument. Arguments like this take a broader political analysis. Not to mention that, again, GUILT is the least awesome way to foster a society of healthy, happy mothers.

Mothers who lack the "motivation" to nurse often feel (whether they're telling you so blatantly or not) like they could not be as holistically present or confident as parents if they felt forced to do so. Nursing is not the only factor in being a "good mother", whatever the heck that means. I commend any woman who can be insightful enough to privilege other, greater factors of parenting over the single issue of nursing. Some women love to nurse, some women don't. And if you don't love it, you're probably suffering for it in a way that translates to stress/anxiety with your children.

In short, nursing is (fortunately) a decision AND (unfortunately) a privilege.

Edited by habitat - 4/14/12 at 12:16pm

[AbbyGrant]

I guess I'm really naive, but I didn't think hospitals did this anymore. I guess the ban the bag campaign wasn't as successful as I thought.  My local hospital doesn't give out commercial marketing bags, and I think that is a really good thing. The choice to use formula or pampers or whatever has not been taken away from anyone.  The store shelves are still full.

As for the piece on Jezebel, it's kind of hard for me to take it seriously given the use of the word "gestapo," so I don't think I could bother to comment. I will look into the Public Citizen petition though. 

[AbbyGrant]

Holy cow! Anyone else notice the number of views on this thread? I feel like we're being watched.

[LovelyNJ]

I like the free stuff from the companies! I threw away the formula, but the bags were nice. I got some coupons (free haircut!), magazines, and ice packs.  Not sure what the big deal is. Lots of stuff is cheap or free but unhealthy (McDonalds, plastic crap, dollar store bath products...). Parenting requires adults to make choices. Keep the free stuff coming and I'll take whats good and leave the rest!    

[LovelyNJ]

I nursed both of my boys for 2 yrs. btw, and two years later it still makes me smile when I look at those bags to think the fomula companies lost money on me.

[Angelorum]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Holy cow! Anyone else notice the number of views on this thread? I feel like we're being watched.

Ha, a few of those views are mine!  It's a debate that interests me. 

I think it is unethical for hospitals to participate in formula marketing by handing out free samples and swag with brand names plastered all over it.  But I also don't think it's the government's business to legislate whether hospitals/formula companies do it or not.  I think if you're opposed to it, it's better to fight at a local level, putting pressure on the hospitals in your area to stop marketing formula to moms. 

[yamilee21]

Wow, the responses on this thread are so not what Mothering used to be about. Is this site still dedicated to supporting natural parenting?

[erigeron]

Originally Posted by yamilee21 

Is this site still dedicated to supporting natural parenting?

Yes it is. That doesn't mean it is an echo chamber where everyone agrees.

[Imakcerka]

Of course

Originally Posted by yamilee21 

Wow, the responses on this thread are so not what Mothering used to be about. Is this site still dedicated to supporting natural parenting?

Some people just don't think it's fair to judge other choices.  And by the way I've said this before.  I hated breast feeding.  I really hated it.  But I did it because I was supposed to if I wanted to be a good mother who really cared about her children.  I didn't feel pressure to bottle feed I felt pressure to breast feed and man did my friends judge the hell out of me when I quit bfing my last one at 16mos. 

In the hospital I was asked before hand how I planned on feeding, If I planned on FF then they would have brought it in for me.  Since I planned on bf, they scheduled the Le leche rep to come in to see how I was doing for the following day. 

[habitat]

Originally Posted by yamilee21 

Wow, the responses on this thread are so not what Mothering used to be about. Is this site still dedicated to supporting natural parenting?

Does "natural parenting" mean that mothers should feel obligated to use their bodies in ways that don't feel natural to them at all?

[slmommy]

oh please people... I think Yamilee's response was more to do about the fact that this thread, just like on Jezebel, turned into bf vs. ff and how judgey those nazi lactivists are. The original topic - Public Citizen's effort, had nothing to do with breast vs. bottle, but taking out the formula samples from hospitals, did anyone go to their site? They've got photos of the samples included in the "breastfeeding" bag, just a smaller size than the "formula" bag. How is the being respectful to the woman's choice?

I'm pretty sure taking samples out of hospitals is not going to damage the ability of a mother to formula feed.

...and actually, anyone formula feeding should probably be interested in this too as many pp pointed out, the cost of this marketing gets added on to the price of formula... and Public Citizen pointed out, this marketing is effective to the point where ff moms stay loyal to the sample brands instead of a less expensive generic options.

Quote:

And, we’re demanding that formula companies — primarily Big Pharma and Big Food corporations — stop this practice, which violates the WHO International Code of Marketing of Breast-milk Substitutes.

http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=5378

but you know, go ahead and keep arguing about people being judgemental about bf vs ff and the socio-economic issues surrounding bfing. 

[erigeron]

slmommy, I can only speak for me, but I responded the way I did for two reasons. First, I find this argument about whether or not formula samples should be given in the hospital to be reductive and frustrating; IMO the real factors undermining meeting six months/a year/two years of breastfeeding are typically NOT related to that formula sample, but are instead related to lifestyle and socioeconomic factors. Sure, I'm familiar with the "booby traps", and I don't think the formula companies have clean hands here, but compared to all the other factors that conspire against a breastfeeding mom, honestly, for me this barely even registers and it hardly seems worth it. Second, I was bothered by the "get 'em!" tone in the original post. It wasn't "Jezebel says this, and I don't agree because of blah, you might want to take a look and respond if you feel like I do". Peggy's post seemed to assume that we would all feel the Jezebel post worthy of protesting, because there is only One Right Response. And I just don't think there is, even among people who are in favor of breastfeeding. I don't like being addressed like I have to support some monolithic position because I support breastfeeding. And as someone noted upthread, Jezebel is a feminist site, and I too would think twice before I bring down the attack mommies on it.

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

slmommy, I can only speak for me, but I responded the way I did for two reasons. First, I find this argument about whether or not formula samples should be given in the hospital to be reductive and frustrating; IMO the real factors undermining meeting six months/a year/two years of breastfeeding are typically NOT related to that formula sample, but are instead related to lifestyle and socioeconomic factors. Sure, I'm familiar with the "booby traps", and I don't think the formula companies have clean hands here, but compared to all the other factors that conspire against a breastfeeding mom, honestly, for me this barely even registers and it hardly seems worth it. Second, I was bothered by the "get 'em!" tone in the original post. It wasn't "Jezebel says this, and I don't agree because of blah, you might want to take a look and respond if you feel like I do". Peggy's post seemed to assume that we would all feel the Jezebel post worthy of protesting, because there is only One Right Response. And I just don't think there is, even among people who are in favor of breastfeeding. I don't like being addressed like I have to support some monolithic position because I support breastfeeding. And as someone noted upthread, Jezebel is a feminist site, and I too would think twice before I bring down the attack mommies on it.

I get what you're saying and I think  you "get it".  I just don't like people using the "a woman is smart enough to decide".  That is true and yet marketing shows us that all people are influenced by marketing.  It's like the book Mindless Eating.  Many people read it and this they can outsmart it but the science says we all end up with the same behaviors.  Malcolm Gladwell discusses it a lot in the book Blink.  People insist up and down and back and forth that this science only applies to other people, certainly not them.

That's why I feel defensive about the idea that giving out samples is harmless and has no affect because "we're smarter than that".

[slmommy]

I have been reading Jezebel for a long time. Ironically, a comment posted in the comment section led me to MDC about 3 years ago. Though a "feminist" site, I have found recent articles about childbirth, breastfeeding, etc. pretty patronizing of anyone who would choose an alternative choice such as natural childbirth and extended breastfeeding. I get that there are problems with anyone forcing or dismissing women for their personal choices, choices heavily involving bodily autonomy, and in no way am I saying NCB community or lactivism is free of this... but it seems on jezebel they are doing quite the same, being very hypocritical, and disrespecting/dismissing the choices of women to do less than "mainstream" things in regards to birth and early parenting choices. You know, it's fun to make fun of those crazy crunchy judgey moms - all while being judgey in the opposite way. 

I think the original topic of this issue, the Public Citizen effort to take samples out of hospitals, is a topic fairly clear of judgement about how women use their bodies and the value of breast vs. formula. It has to do with marketing, a type of marketing the WHO is against, not just some judgey lactivist moms who have enough time and resources to breastfeed. 

[AbbyGrant]

      Quote:

Originally Posted by slmommy 

I think the original topic of this issue, the Public Citizen effort to take samples out of hospitals, is a topic fairly clear of judgement about how women use their bodies and the value of breast vs. formula. It has to do with marketing, a type of marketing the WHO is against, not just some judgey lactivist moms who have enough time and resources to breastfeed. 

I totally agree. This has nothing to do with trying to take away or judge a woman's choice to formula feed for whatever reason. I couldn't care less how other women choose to feed their babies as long as they're feeding them. I am concerned though about the interests of formula companies coming before the interests of mothers and babies in the hospital. I'm glad some women feel they were too smart to be influenced one way or the other by the marketing, but these companies would not be doing this if it didn't work. They aren't sending home free samples out of the kindness of their hearts so parents have some alternative at 3am when breastfeeding isn't working out. 

[MamaMunchkin]

Mixed feeling here ...

edited: forget it, I don't want to get into it ...

Edited by MamaMunchkin - 4/24/12 at 11:21am

[erigeron]

Meh, I haven't spent much time on Jezebel myself, so I can't comment on how judgey they might be, though I don't think that if they are that means we should be in the opposite direction. I'm not too familiar with the WHO recommendations, although personally I don't have a problem with formula samples being given out to formula-feeding moms who do want them. And the idea of moms choosing to formula-feed and wanting the samples is, I think, the point at which this thread veered off topic (and it wouldn't be the first thread at MDC that did ).