Jezebel likes formula samples; please respond - Page 4

[slmommy]

ok, I am still not onboard here.

If we think that there is a possibility that formula samples discourage or endanger or shorten the length of possible bfing... wouldn't their existence probably mean more WIC mothers using formula, which would be more expensive to taxpayer as that is a lot of formula - not just one sample??

and marketing costs are absolutely included in the price of the product.

Quote:

The cost savings to the U.S. economy if more parents were to breastfeed their babies would be significant. One study found that if 90 percent of families in the United States breastfed babies exclusively for six months, savings could amount to $13 billion. If 80 percent of families met the six month exclusive breastfeeding goal, $10.5 billion could be saved. http://citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=5397

Here's a picture of the samples that go in Breastfeeding vs. Formula feeding discharge bags http://citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=5390

End users are paying for samples in the breastfeeding bags, maybe a lot go unused or expired, get thrown out (yes, I know there are better options like giving it away or donating)? I have a big problem with samples in the "breastfeeding bags," I mean, come on, have some respect for the woman's choice!! I don't have any problem with people wanting samples getting them. I don't know hospitals are the best avenue for this. I also agree with PP that it would be nice if hospitals would deal with this, I do think they have a lot of responsibility here. 

I believe other products are in bags too? diaper sample? would removing that one or several diapers significantly increase the $ taxpayers need to pay to cover other social assistence programs for mothers who are using that money to cover diapers? 

[AbbyGrant]

So the concern is all the tax dollars it takes to fund formula via WIC, so the answer is let formula companies market to women in the hospital even those that want to breastfeed? Yeah, that's not working for me. 

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

The mention of WIC comes because of the poster that stated the cost of formula is because of these and it has been shown the formula cost is directly related to WIC- they are the driving force behind the cost in the US for formula not because of these bags.

You're really going to have to cite a source for this.

[serenbat]

You're really going to have to cite a source for this.

I did

I provided two links in my previous post that state just what I said- I even quoted it.

The link (I provided) even states the source for the data. International Breastfeeding has all the sources linked. 

[serenbat]

There are many that feel WIC is a hugh factor in the formula push and so much can be sited in the extremely low cost of formula that WIC negotiates directly with the manufactures - again the source I cited previously shows the data that talks directly about the costs and WIC's role.

http://www.internationalbreastfeedingjournal.com/content/1/1/8#B23

[serenbat]

I believe other products are in bags too? diaper sample? would removing that one or several diapers significantly increase the $ taxpayers need to pay to cover other social assistence programs for mothers who are using that money to cover diapers? 

I got other items in my bags

and I know in my state the needs are going unmet and our governor wants much more stringent requirements for assistance and wants many purged from the assistance rolls- we do not fund diapers as assistance in my state

I know diapers are in a hugh demand at our local food shelters they ask for them on their lists

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I got other items in my bags

and I know in my state the needs are going unmet and our governor wants much more stringent requirements for assistance and wants many purged from the assistance rolls- we do not fund diapers as assistance in my state

I know diapers are in a hugh demand at our local food shelters they ask for them on their lists

The whole purpose of marketing is to get the customer to buy your product, and have loyalty to your product. Formula is especially tricky because it may interfer/end/shorten the bfing relationship, if mom wanted to bf, so then there is no choice but to buy formula.

Companies don't give away samples just because they are being nice or concerned about tax payers and social programs. Even if they do make donations, it is for public image, writeoffs and/or publicity - so they can sell more product. 

The WIC thing is pretty irrelevant here, other than the fact that MORE women in WIC may be ffing BECAUSE of formula samples. 

Edited by slmommy - 4/26/12 at 3:02pm

[AbbyGrant]

      Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat 

http://www.internationalbreastfeedingjournal.com/content/1/1/8#B23

While that paper certainly makes the case that WIC drives up the price of formula, it does not say that free samples don't too. Actually quite the opposite. It mentions how expensive providing free samples is and how much money some companies have paid to get the exclusive ability to provide free samples to hospitals and how formula makers "saw that a government nutrition assistance program could fulfill the same functions at much lower cost" and how much padding there is between the price of production and the wholesale price. It's very damning towards formula marketing and really only serves to support the OP. 

        Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat 

The mention of WIC comes because of the poster that stated the cost of formula is because of these and it has been shown the formula cost is directly related to WIC- they are the driving force behind the cost in the US for formula not because of these bags.

If someone said "the cost of formula is because of these" bags, then I missed it.  I only saw some people saying the price of marketing, which these samples are, is incorporated into the price of formula. That does not preclude the fact that WIC drives up the price too. 

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I don't know what you don't get about the word donate? Who do you think pays for this? In my area they are donated by the company that is giving the item- not paid by the hospitable- it's a donation- they are of samples but the process is called what it is a donation. You also get them at the OB and the local Ped offices - they are donated not paid for by the OB or the Ped.

Donating as defined by Merriam Webster: : to make a gift of; especially : to contribute to a public or charitable cause. They are not donating these samples. It's marketing. The only place I saw the word "donating" used in the article you linked, it appeared to be being used sarcastically. 

Originally Posted by serenbat 

the logic that some seem to have thinking that "donated" formula costs more and if taxpayers via WIC supply it is somehow cheaper- where is that proof?

I missed where anyone said that. I suggested the cost to the taxpayer of the free sample sent home with each mother eligible for WIC was irrelevant and that taxpayers are paying for the marketing tactics of formula makers and I and at least one other person suggested that these samples may increase the rate of formula feeding thus potentially creating more in need of free formula from WIC thus potentially costing the tax payers more.  The article you linked supported that and argued that if more people breastfed, it could save the country millions. 

[serenbat]

If someone said "the cost of formula is because of these" bags, then I missed it. 

you did miss this

I don't get the logic here.  No formula sample is "free".  The user of that brand of "donated" formula pays more per can/bottle because the companies give these bags away.  If they didn't give away the free samples, the cost could be lower for each can/bottle making it easier to afford.

I think bringing WIC up has nothing to do with this.  If someone needs assistance, they should get it and, yes, the taxes pay for it.  I have no problem with that.  

bolded what I replied to

again, I ask - who is paying for these bags? they are donated (even if you don't seem to think so) and the company who provides them is paying for it unless you can provide otherwise- they are in my area- came with a nice big tag saying provided by and it was not my hospitable 

While that paper certainly makes the case that WIC drives up the price of formula, it does not say that free samples don't too.

It states the study that show WIC's effect, it speculates but does not show the cost the manufactures take into account nor does it show that it is the reason for the cost- clearly WIC being the largest buy effects the cost

Can you provide proof that it does and site a study showing it like the one showing the great effect WIC has on the price?

Should be push to end WIC because of what they push? Personally they seem far more the bad ones here not the one bag from the hospitable.

It mentions how expensive providing free samples is and how much money some companies have paid to get the exclusive ability to provide free samples

this happens with ALL marked products to some degree- I also was flooded with diaper and creams and lotions and no outrage there- in fact I got more coupons and vouchers for diapers after my last child - some argue a lot on the cost of disposable diaper to the whole of society 

marketing is done in every grocery store as well

it's really -IMO naive to think that just stopping a bag from a hospitable it some end all, most of what I got came outside of the hospitable, directly deliver to my door step (USPS)

the first year after our DS birth we "donated" over $1000.00 of formula, diapers and hygiene products that we had no use for- most came in the form of vouchers for free products and none of it I signed up for, on top of it by redeeming the coupons my grocery store gave me MORE vouchers for baby items for free products!

[AbbyGrant]

        Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat 

it's really -IMO naive to think that just stopping a bag from a hospitable it some end all

Again, I missed where anyone said that.

[Youngfrankenstein]

I'm just responding to say that I never thought formula samples were donated by the hospital or OB's office.  I thought it was well understood that everyone knew they were donated by the formula companies.

[slmommy]

the difference between formula samples and other product samples is that many women do have breastmilk, which is free, and if you start using formula, especially early on, you may lose your ability to bf or have other issues = you have no choice now but to keep buying formula or your kid starves.

[serenbat]

or have other issues = you have no choice now but to keep buying formula or your kid starves.

so we are only to care about those who can and do BF not the others?

so when grandma has to take home the newborn because mother can't or won't, just too bad-make sure no bag is sent home with her-correct?

I guess some come from areas and have little to no understand about other areas and problems many people do face and a blanket across the board approach is only going to suffice for some - choice and not condemnation really seems to be missing from so much of this-such micro focus on such a trivial issue and no real focus on the social economical root of a greater problem-IMO

[AbbyGrant]

      Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat 

so we are only to care about those who can and do BF not the others?

so when grandma has to take home the newborn because mother can't or won't, just too bad-make sure no bag is sent home with her-correct?

I guess some come from areas and have little to no understand about other areas and problems many people do face and a blanket across the board approach is only going to suffice for some - choice and not condemnation really seems to be missing from so much of this-such micro focus on such a trivial issue and no real focus on the social economical root of a greater problem-IMO

How do you know what else everyone here is doing? What our backgrounds are? We don't understand about poverty or difficult circumstances because we don't agree with you? You are really making some ridiculous and unfounded assumptions about others here and grasping at straws to divert attention from the topic at hand, and it's not doing you or your argument any favors. It seems a desperate effort. 

And by the way, the only hospital in my town does not give out corporate marketing bags. It's a large public hospital who serves everyone, including those that are low income. They provide amazing LC services as well as other supportive services. They are not sending babies home to starve with grandma because she didn't get her daughter's swag bag with a Similac sample. 

And with that, I'm done responding to you. Feel free to have the last word. 

[slmommy]

Ok I am totally lost and going to give up too.

Serenbat, you seem to just want to be argumentative... youre upset about wic driving up formula prices, but then super concerned about lack of 1 sample from hospital driving up your tax dollars? I really do think most women who want or need to formula feed realize they will need to buy formula or get assistence in that area if they need it. I really don't see the issue with insurance, individual, or social program paying for the formula used by infant in hospital or first day home, the individual or social program will continue to do so for the long haul, it is a sample we are talking about. 

I said before if people want samples, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a big problem with samples in breastfeeding bags. I also don't think hospital is correct place for distribution - that implies the institution's medical endorsement of said brand. These brands are more expensive - the PC things I cited before showed that women tend to stick with them and end up spending $hundreds more per year because of this marketing. So you are accusing me of ignoring socioeconomic problems?

I have not expressed any judgement about bf vs ff here... I have expressed judgement about formula companies, the hospitals that go along with this, and those posters who can't seem to see this issue in any other light than all lactivists are crazy judgemental nazis with superiority complexes who hate formula mothers.

[JMJ]

I once heard a mother speak with sorrow about how she was unable to breastfeed her little girl and then speak with pride about how they had scraped together then money for the more expensive brand of formula that was provided by the hospital rather than relying on some generic brand.  She wanted to give her daughter the very best that she could.  She took the free samples as a sign of the hospital endorsing the formula as the best out there, and spent a small fortune to give her child the "best."

I'm not a big fan of unsolicited free formula samples in general, but there are certainly some relationships that shouldn't exist, and the hospital/formula company relationship is one.  I also thought it was horrific that my own high school took a deal from either Pepsi or Coca Cola to give them exclusive access at our school, including giving students the option to have either milk or soda with their lunches... another relationship that should have never existed.  I can see a lot of issues with WIC as well, though many states have seen a lot of improvements in WIC in the past decade (far more breastfeeding support options and incentives, more vegetables, farmers' market options, etc), and I hope to see more improvements.

[serenbat]

So many do not qualify for WIC or other services yet will FF no matter what (for various reason and this will not just end) yet it's just so evil to send home a bag and somehow this solves it all-lots of feel good.

I see no reality that ending the relationship end the need, quiet the opposite. So much about semantics nothing about compassion or reality-IMO

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

So many do not qualify for WIC or other services yet will FF no matter what (for various reason and this will not just end) yet it's just so evil to send home a bag and somehow this solves it all-lots of feel good.

I see no reality that ending the relationship end the need, quiet the opposite. So much about semantics nothing about compassion or reality-IMO

well let them get all the samples they want other ways - which people already said happens. and then they can waste $ paying for the expensive brand the marketing has encouraged them to form loyalty to. lack of compassion = cutting out one sample from hospital?

If companies weren't putting samples in hospitals, they will just put them in other venues - direct mailing, baby fairs, combining them with other product promos, wherever.

Edited by slmommy - 4/27/12 at 10:43am

[katelove]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

so we are only to care about those who can and do BF not the others?

so when grandma has to take home the newborn because mother can't or won't, just too bad-make sure no bag is sent home with her-correct?

How much formula is being given out in the bags? There is no formula or formula advertising allowed in the Australian bags anymore but when it was allowed it was a little sachet or two. Each sachet was about one feeds worth. Certainly not anywhere near enough to make any sort of financial differences to anyone.