Breastfeeding Passion - Page 3

[rubidoux]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn 

So, you feel sorry for anyone who didn't have exactly the same parenting experience that you had, because you assume it couldn't possibly have been any good? This does not help either. Just as most people notice that one in five formula fed babies aren't dead, most people notice that there can still be a wonderful mother/child relationship without nursing. It's just spreading guilt and condescension to absolutely no good effect.

I didn't say anything that implied that I thought all non-nursing moms are doomed to have crappy relationships with their children.  I also think that if I were in a situation where I couldn't nurse for some reason, I would have done my very best to make it a good experience and I would not be at all surprised to find out that people have good experiences with FF'ing.  I did not mean for anything I said to make anyone feel guilty (except maybe all those IL's who don't allow bf'ing in their homes and the like) and I'm not sure why it would.  My point was that I wish that our culture was more supportive of breast feeding.  To the extent that women do not and are not able to nurse because they get no support (ie, women who had lactation consultants in the hospital that told them they were doing things all wrong and it wasn't working, like I did; women who's friends/family are grossed out by the idea of nursing; women who have never even considered it because they have had no reason to think about it), I think that's a shame.  If there's any reason to think it's good for our culture to not be supportive of nursing, I'm willing to listen.  As I said earlier, I've drank the kool aid.  And I do believe that the same sort of thing in regards to childbirth  --  supporting women in natural birthing/home birthing  --  has been very damaging to a lot of women, so I could probably be convinced by analogy.  I guess I have half-way convinced myself.  Clearly my feelings about this are hurtful to folks...  I guess I'm just not sure how I should be feeling about this.

Originally Posted by NoraFlood 

Hey, guess what? Breastfeeding was so hard for me, and caused so much stress, that my relationship with my son was absolutely miserable the whole time I was still trying (and failing) to make it work. Once I stopped nursing, our relationship improved 100%. So you can keep your pity.

I am not sure why you think I'm having bad or mean feelings for people in your situation.  I will certainly not feel pity for you.  But if my sister told me the same story, I'd probably wish that nursing had not been so hard and caused all of that stress.  I'm not sure what I should feel about that if sad is not an option.  I'd be happy that she did end up having a great relationship with her babe and that was able to make a decision that worked for her.  I don't *think* the feelings I'd have would be offensive to her.  I will work on it...

[Super~Single~Mama]

I don't think rubidoux meant to say that we should not be supportive of FF. Just that it would be nice if our culture were more supportive of BF'ing. Really, I think so much could be solved if our culture was more supportive of MOTHERS, because everyone fares better when mothers have a great support system.

[Wildwomyn]

 ‘I feel bad for [whoever]’ is a very loaded phrase indicating pity at best, distain at worst. I can see how it could be used innocently, but I would beg you not to – it is quite profoundly unhelpful.

[rubidoux]

Alright, I will not.  This is what wikipedia has to say about "pity": " Pity originally means feeling for others, particularly feelings of sadness or sorrow, and was once used in a comparable sense to the more modern words "sympathy" and "empathy". Through insincere usage, it now has more unsympathetic connotations of feelings of superiority or condescension."  

I didn't use the word pity here myself, nor would I have.  I didn't realize that the best way that "I feel bad for" could be understood is as pity.  I am normally pretty good with the english language and various connotations of things, I think, but I did not realize this.  I in no way felt or meant to communicate that I felt superior to people who don't breastfeed.  I think that would make me a fairly terrible unlikeable person.  Yikes!  I know this sounds like a crazy thing to ask, but I really am wondering what words I should be using to describe how I feel.  Would it work to say that I have "sympathy" for women and children who don't nurse?  It doesn't sound quite right to me.  Maybe even though I don't think I'm having bad feelings, these are really hurtful feelings for me to have.  I dont' know.  I have a hard time imagining a world in which I don't have any feelings about this sort of thing.  

I was very worried during my first pregnancy that I would for whatever reason be unable to nurse.  It was really important to me.  Then, nursing didn't come easy to us at all.  I was SO scared at first that I wouldn't be able to make it work.  The trouble that we had was probably not anywhere near as difficult to get through as the women who have felt hurt by my comments here.  Our biggest problem was Milo's disinterest, but the nurses and doctors had me convinced that it was terribly worrisome.  Looking back, I think it was just his constitution.  At any rate, though, there was a time that I was quite scared and wasn't sure if it would work out.  And then when it did I valued it immensely, but I never, never thought something like "nursing worked for me because I am superior to those mothers for whom it didn't work."  I thought something more like, "man I am so lucky and so happy this is working for me."  And that leads to feelings of sadness when I hear about people who it doesn't work for.  I really truly hope that that explanation of how I feel is not hurtful to anyone.  I will continue to think about how/if my feelings are wrong or should be different.  And I don't mind pointers.  If anyone's offended lmk.  I am clearly not perfect.  

ETA:  Just looked back at this and I'm wondering how people could really have thought I meant that I felt disdain for non-nursing moms here?  Or even that I was superior.  Gosh, that just sucks.  I hope you will believe that I would NEVER, never feel that way.  

[MamaMunchkin]

Originally Posted by rubidoux 

I thought something more like, "man I am so lucky and so happy this is working for me."  And that leads to feelings of sadness when I hear about people who it doesn't work for.

Implicity what you said can be taken to mean that not bf-ing means a crummier situation.  That might make you feel sad, lucky, empathetic etc - but it's the crummier part that may not sit well with some.  The problem is the perceived assumption, not the response per se.

[rubidoux]

Gosh, I did not even think of that.  I would have assumed the people who posted probably have the same belief, though.  Or maybe they had that belief before they had had their babies, but now that they've been through the experience they don't?  

[kmeyrick]

I think there is enough pressure on women in all facets of their lives. The idea that even giving a baby a bottle in public warrants judgment and scrutiny from strangers.....Gah! First off, if I don't know the woman I am looking at, I don't assume the child she has with her is actually hers. She could be watching the baby. If I didn't see her put formula in the bottle then how do I know for sure that it's not breast milk?

And why do I care?

I'm more concerned about making quality LCs available and affordable, nip laws and making the workplace more pumping friendly.
 

[LilMomma83]

Originally Posted by NoraFlood 

Hey, guess what? Breastfeeding was so hard for me, and caused so much stress, that my relationship with my son was absolutely miserable the whole time I was still trying (and failing) to make it work. Once I stopped nursing, our relationship improved 100%. So you can keep your pity.

This is exactly what happened with my second son. I chose to stop breastfeeding him (long list of challenges and hard work on my part due to an undiagnosed tongue tie). I chose to stop because we were both so stressed over trying to breastfeed that it was harming our relationship. I'm sad to this day that it didn't work out for us, but, I have never once regretted switching to formula. For the record, I did try to relactate and EP unsuccessfully. I know quite a few moms who have tried to EP and were not able to...pumping is rediculously hard and time consuming.

Originally Posted by kmeyrick 

I'm more concerned about making quality LCs available and affordable, nip laws and making the workplace more pumping friendly.
 

I agree. There just isn't enough resources for people. Even now with my 3rd I have learned so much and we are pushing on, but, I think we are getting to the point where we are just going to have to stop . . . not every has unlimitted finances and I certainly would have no idea where to even look for help if this wasn't my 3rd child. I'm working really hard right now to make resources more available, and when my kids are older plan to become an IBCLC with a sliding scale..I don't care if I just break even...I just badly want to help moms and babies.

Having both breast and bottle fed, I can say I felt HORRIBLE having to bottle feed in public - I already felt like everyone was judging me. I'm almost glad I had that experience so I can be understanding of others.

My youngest's tongue tie was so bad she could not breastfeed at all - no matter what we did she could not transfer ANY milk, she HAD to feed with a bottle (in fact we even tried an SNS and a medicine dropper and a cup none of which worked - the bottle itself hardly worked) - she was losing weight rapidly and would probably not even be alive at 4 months if we had not fed her with bottles...I can't stop anyone from judging, but, I wish people wouldn't.

As far as my friends, I do everything I can to support them with breastfeeding, but, I always tell them I support them no matter what. I don't even mention bottle or formula, but, I am pretty sure they get the picture.

As far as IBCLC (someone mentioned this I think), my best IBCLC was the one who gave me "permission" to wean my middle son...she said she would support me with whatever it took to continue breastfeeding, but, that I had to make a choice of what was best for my family. I needed to hear that. I felt like a failure, but, her words helped me realize I wasn't.

I agree, formula isn't anywhere near as good as breastmilk, but, all my children have needed it at some point...for survival. I hate formula companies - so unethical...but, a need is a need...and I put my feelings aside for what is best for my family and try to support other moms to do what is best for theirs. It's the whole picture - not just formula/bottle vs breastmilk/breast

[coffeegirl]

I nursed my baby girl and I really cherished it. The closeness, the nights sleeping together and cuddling when she was really tiny. The satisfaction of knowing I was feeding my baby the best I could, from myself, and that the milk I had had been created by nature especially for HER and only her. I loved all those things. But you know? I didn't exclusively breastfeed. At the time it was not my choice- I had supply issues b/c my daughter was in the NICU for the first few weeks. But now we have another baby on the way and I'm thinking of NOT exclusively breastfeeding again, but this time by choice. That's how well it worked for us.

I just felt like we ended up getting the best of both worlds by feeding my daughter breastmilk AND formula. How condescending would it be and how offended would so many people here be if I said I felt sorry for all those mothers who exclusively breastfeed and co-sleep and never get a good night's sleep for their child's entire infancy? It's a total generalization based on anecdata and my own experience and it assumes that I know much more about you and your child's relationship than I actually do.

You can't accurately judge my own experiences as a mother, because it happened to me and not you. You weren't there and you don't know. Thinking that your own experiences somehow set the standard for proper mothering is just arrogant.

[rubidoux]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

I just felt like we ended up getting the best of both worlds by feeding my daughter breastmilk AND formula. How condescending would it be and how offended would so many people here be if I said I felt sorry for all those mothers who exclusively breastfeed and co-sleep and never get a good night's sleep for their child's entire infancy? It's a total generalization based on anecdata and my own experience and it assumes that I know much more about you and your child's relationship than I actually do.

You can't accurately judge my own experiences as a mother, because it happened to me and not you. You weren't there and you don't know. Thinking that your own experiences somehow set the standard for proper mothering is just arrogant.

Ya know, there are a lot of women who feel sorry for those of us who didn't have a vaginal homebirth.  But I don't see that in any way as them being arrogant or condescending.  I had a great experiences with my c-section births.  But I don't have any trouble seeing that it would have been great for me and my babies to have had natural vaginal births.  I don't feel as if I did something wrong or failed or am not good enough or something.  It just didn't work out for me to birth that way.  So yes, I think a natural vaginal birth is *better* than a c-section and I think nursing is *better* than formula feeding.  I don't think that because those are things I did, but because there is a lot of reason to think those things are objectively true.  I don't think any less of women who start saying early in their pregnancies that they're going to get an epidural as early in labor as possible.  And I do not think less of women that I see feeding an infant a bottle.  When I see it, though, I do think, "I wish I lived in a culture that valued and supported nursing."  It may not be true that that woman would have nursed in the most supportive culture, but I do think that if breastfeeding were more in vogue, more people would be doing it. 

[Margot Dawson]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

How condescending would it be and how offended would so many people here be if I said I felt sorry for all those mothers who exclusively breastfeed and co-sleep and never get a good night's sleep for their child's entire infancy? 

I wouldn't feel offended at all if you said that.  Why would I feel angry for someone feeling sorry that I didn't get good sleep?? That's a nice thing- to feel sorry for someone else's difficulty.  I would say, "thanks, yeah, it was tough."  Wouldn't it be nice if you could get the benefits of EBF and co-sleeping without all the hardships. That's a personal choice we all make.  Its natural to believe the choice you make is the right one at the time, otherwise you would have made a different choice.

Its interesting that some of you have espouse feeling uncomfortable FF in public.  What a crappy culture we live in that women have to feel judged whichever way we feed our babies in public, BF or FF.  

[Dr.Worm]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I don't think rubidoux meant to say that we should not be supportive of FF. Just that it would be nice if our culture were more supportive of BF'ing. Really, I think so much could be solved if our culture was more supportive of MOTHERS, because everyone fares better when mothers have a great support system.

Yeah I agree with rubidoux and Super~Single~Mama.  I also hate the whole "If you cared enough about your kids you would be a sahm" and "If you cared enough about your kids you would work." Yuck.

[Alenushka]

I think it is outright creepy to be obsessed with how other people feed their babies or what how they choose to parent unless is something that would legitimately fall under the purview of CPS action.

My babies , work and education keept me so busy that I really could imagine having time or emotional reserve to obsess about someone elses breastfeeding or lack of there of. Perhaps some people have too much spare time on their hands.

It is also very judgmental. Women have good reasons not to breastfeed. Sometime ti is cancer, sometime is is meds for mental illness or autoimmune disorder. Sometime it is thyroid disorder, sometime is rare case of baby's allergy or breast milk. Sometime it is something very simple and mundane. We live in the country that does not provide adequate parental leave and monetary support to mothers. I as lucky enough to  be able to work from home and nurse my child but no everyone is like that lucky. For many mother in US the choice is "breastfeeding or rent".  P lease, do not strat with pumping. not every job can or  want to facilitate pumping and not everyone has money for an attorney.

Honestly, anyone who has to much time to obsess about other people nutritional choice for their child should perhaps consider  volunteering  at the local homeless  shelter or something

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by Margot Dawson 

  I don't like that statement, because I feel like formula is basically junk food.  In my mind, its like saying "my friend chooses to feed her 4 month old baby potato chips, so I took a broader view and helped nourish her baby by helping her to feed him the chips."  When really, I feel like it would be better (but not nicer) to say, "I'm not feeding that crap to a baby."

Originally Posted by Margot Dawson 

Its interesting that some of you have espouse feeling uncomfortable FF in public.  What a crappy culture we live in that women have to feel judged whichever way we feed our babies in public, BF or FF.  

You don't see the irony in these two statements?

[Margot Dawson]

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein 

You don't see the irony in these two statements?

I don't think its ironic for my feelings and observations to, at times, be at odds, no.  I'm not trying to win an argument here, I'm just discussing my feelings.  I'm not an extremest, just a normal human being. I have come to the conclusion that I have allowed myself to be brainwashed by some pro-breastfeeding rhetoric into feeling like formula is much worse than it is.  I'm sure its a perfectly fine choice.   This thread, despite all the negativity, has helped me with some needed introspection.  

Youngfrankenstein, feel free to contrast this to some of my previous posts to try to make me look stupid.  I'm sure you'll succeed.  I'm certainly far from perfect, but really I'm just trying to learn and grow.

[Alphaghetti]

Hmm. I have read this thread in its entirety. I do understand the OP's feelings, but don't necessarily agree.

I think it is selfish to not even try to breastfeed. I don't, however, think that it makes someone a bad parent. But who am I? I am not judge and jury, except in my own head. 

This does not apply to breastfeeding much, but I also think that the reason why we become so passionate and dramatic about parenting choices/styles is because it is THE most important thing in the world to most of us, and we're all secretly scared that the decisions we have made for our own babies may not necessarily be the best ones. Mommy wars will never end. The best we can do is try to be supportive of one another and keep our impassioned opinions mostly to ourselves.

[mamaofthree]

what i am finding interesting and sad (yes i do feel sad here) is that the OP stated her feelings NEVER how she actually acted towards people. she even stated that she had NEVER said anything to other mothers. i am pretty surprise, or maybe not so surprised, at how many people get all pissed off at the idea that someone would even THINK something. like no one here has ever once even a little bit judged someone and not said anything. just kept it to themselves.

that makes us people. you see stuff you judge it, you decide if it's for you or not and than you act on it. if something works for you you judge it as good for you and than maybe you have a hard time seeing it another way. that does not mean that even once you say anything out loud, but you do think it.

and just because some one feels breastfeeding is the normal and best way to feed a baby doesn't mean they can not work with breastfeeding mothers because they will be jerks or something. 

[Alenushka]

People who think judgmental thought like this think it does not show as long as "I do not act on it". but it is simply not true. It seeps in comments and looks.

[MamaMunchkin]

All I ever got from threads like this - nobody likes to be judged.  Usually it matters much less what the subject is.

OP, glad you're learning ... sometimes being a parent teaches you unexpected things.

[Imakcerka]

Interesting. I breastfed and I have to say... I didn't like it at all. Okay maybe some of it was nice and all but honestly it sucked. And because it sucked so much and stressed me out to no end, when someone tells me they plan on FF I say go for it. Heck I was formula fed and I'm only slightly an idiot. Pretty sure if my mom BF'd me she would have felt the same about me either way. And after being a parent I know that I'm not the WORD on awesome parenting. I'll never be the best. And I can really never tell anyone they're not doing enough, not doing their best or judge the fact that their kids get soda. Hell I've got cousins who had Koolaide in their bottles. Yeah microsoft hires people like that too. Amazing how awesome people can be without all the BEST.