Totally long thread about DH's reasons to not homeschool... - Page 3

[Storm Bride]

OP: Sorry to derail, but I read this and felt I had to comment.

Originally Posted by sandifromct 

I was homeschooled for the beginning of my education and we sure learned a lot but yes, I did enter public school eventually WAY behind my peers socially and it was very very hard.

I was public schooled all the way through, and that was very hard...and I was always socially behind. I still am. I don't get how the social rules work, and I learned to be very afraid of other people, particularly in groups, at school. In fact, that's one of the few lessons that I really learned in school. Most of the things we were formally taught have long since faded from my memory.

If given the choice, I would have had my parents choose public (or private) school with peers earlier.  The system of learning to work with large groups, according to rules you sometimes do or dont like, teachers you do or dont like, etc.  All of that is very valuable in my opinion.  It is a lot like working for bosses according to rules you do not set. 

FWIW, I completely disagree. I've had multiple jobs in my life, and done very well in all of them. I've been congratulated on how good a team player I am by every boss I've ever had. I also temped for a while, and was a top notch, very flexible, temp. I didn't learn any of that in school, either, because I hated group work, and wasn't good at it. I sat there at the table and said nothing - every time - for all of school. School and work are different. I've known people (like me) who functioned very badly at school, but very well in the workplace. I've known people who have functioned very well at school, but not very well in the workplace. They're simply not the same. And, if I dislike a boss as much as I disliked a couple of my teachers (the genuine disrespectful bullies), I'd leave the job and move on. Nobody should have to put up with that, but students do have to put up with it, a lot of the time.

A child benefits by learning to thrive in this system. 

Yes. But, there are a lot of chlidren who don't learn to thrive in the system, and they don't benefit. They don't benefit at all.

I just dont see why it must be either or.  Can you tell us more what you are worried about re: public school?  (Not saying there arent reasons to be worried, I just think it might help you address this problem more fully). 

I don't think any of this is relevant to the OP. She wants to homeschool. The reasons are relevant to her husband, but she doesn't need to tell anybody else why she wants to go that route, yk?

I took art lessons, music lessons, writing lessons, everything in public school and it was an ENORMOUS outlet for my creativity, espeically at the point (around age 9) that I began to surpass my parents musically, creatively and artistically. 

LOL. DD1 left me behind musically, creatively and artistically by the time she was five or six. So did her big brother, who graduated from public school last year (and also took music, writing, art, etc. - he's now at university, studying acting). But, her big brother has noticed that she has more time to work on her art than he had, and that she's developing her visual arts in more directions than he did. DD1 also takes art lessons (multi media and pottery, so far) and music lessons (piano - she also wants to learn the French horn at some point, and is talking about violin). She takes dance. I see this kind of comment a lot, but I'm surprised to see it from a former homeschooler. There is no reason why homeschooling means "never takes lessons in anything". (My homeschooled kids take, or have taken, ballet, "Stomp" dances, piano, Tae Kwon Do, circus, multimedia art, swimming, skating, and pottery. We also have lessons planned in a wide variety of other activities - dueling, painting, musical theatre, etc. They take workshop style classes in science, music, etc.) There are all kinds of options for clases and lessons, outside of school, and most homeschoolers that I know take full advantage of that.

My dad taught me calculus long before I learned it in school, so I just dont think education at home stops when education at school begins. 

That depends on many factors. For ds1, education at home pretty much did stop for about three or four years (grades four through seven), because he was so loaded down with homework. The homework itself was mostly busywork, and very little of it actually taught him anything, but it cut massively into our family time, and he wasn't learning much at home at all.

They each bring something important.  If I were you, I would send them to a high quality school if one was available, with good teachers (oh that's another plus!  The teachers I encountered on the way were some of the most important people ever to come into my life.  I would not be the person I am today without them).  I guess I feel like, the more exposure to more environments, people, different languages, cultures, etc the better. 

We had good teachers, but I didn't thrive, even in those classrooms, because the classroom environment simply doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for a lot of people. I can't say that any of my teachers (with the possible exception of my third grade one, who first introduced me to yoga) had a significant impact on who I am today. They were pretty much irrelevant even when I was at school, and completely irrelevant as soon as I'd graduated.

How many environments is a child exposed to in public school? In your case, it sounds as though there were many opportunities, but that hasn't been my experience. The only environments I was exposed to were classrooms, gyms, and the library (where I pretty much lived, outside of class). During the hours of the typical school day, my kids are exposed to the science museum, aquarium, zoo (before it lost it accrediation, anyway), forests, stores, the public library, gyms, music rooms, etc. .

which is why I studied abroad every chance I got, learned 4 languages, met my husband overseas . . . I just feel like, I am sure you will do an absolutely AMAZING job educating your children at home, but what they will lose from that will be all those different people they would have met along the way.  The different cultures, teachers, mentors, challenges, etc.  I would really want my kids to have that.  IF (and only if) the schools were very good. 

Good schools don't always mean all of that. My high school was a good school, but it was also almost completely white and upper middle class (actually, I was the "diversity", as a white lower middle class kid - it was hell). I never had a mentor. The only challenge was surviving from one day to the next (not being terribly dramatic, either - I first contemplated suicide after a particularly bad day of bullying in 8th grade). A good school doesn't mean it will be a good fit for any particular child.

As I said, I really feel like you can continue to teach that am home too.  It is always very important for parents to supplement their children's learning.  And, if for any reason, they werent doing well at school (this happened to my learning disabled cousin) by all means pull them out and homeschool them!  It did wonders for my cousin and 5 years later, she was able to rejoin school and really succeed, when at first she was just floundering and suffering.  So attend all the schools, find a teacher you feel will enlighten your child's mind and spirirt, can offer them a different point of view than yours (which in my opinion is always valuable) and continue lessons at home and get some well deserved time off.  Just my two cents :)

Did you go to a school where your parents could pick your teacher? I've never heard of that. What you get is what you get. Sometimes, if there are really serious issues, and enough parental pressure, a child might be able to move to a different classroom, but it's hardly a matter of "find a teacher" the way you phrase it here.

You're obviously entitled to your own opinion. But, the fact that public school was an awesome experience for you doesn't carry over into it being an awesome experience for everybody. Some people (I've drawn on my own experience, because it's what I know best, but I've known many, many, many other people who were shut down, one way or another, by school) simply don't fit into the way that school works. In any case, the OP wasn't asking for input on whether her views are valid or not.

[seashells]

Though I come from a different experience of having thrived in high school (but not elementary or middle), I totally agree with every point StormBride made.

[sandifromct]

I actually think I agree with Stormbride too.  It sounds like Stormbride, you were suffering in every possible way in public school and your parents should ABSOLUTELY have homeschooled you. I would never argue that a child or young adult doing badly or not enjoying somewhere should remain there.  That is horrible!  If a classroom is full of students who are bullied, not nurtured by their teacher and the child is developing poor self-esteem, I would be the first to argue for a change, and I also think homeschool can be a wonderful option for many kids that by their nature, perhaps being more introverted or just whatever the case is, just are not enjoying public school (or private school, I mean a NON-homeschool when I say public).  I really think it is what I described before:  check into everything.  If you feel you can find a truly enlightened caring and nurturing teacher, with a good child-to-teacher ratio, and your child seems happy and learning there and exposed to many other children from different families, that sounds like a great option (to this mom).  I also though would probably choose homeschool if my child had a horrible teacher and I couldnt find a different solution, or even if the teacher seemed fine but she just didnt seem to be thriving there.  I think that makes worlds of sense. 

For the comparison of the Y, I think the scenario you described accurately shows the comparison between homeschool and poor public school.  But what about if the swimming instructor had been really gifted patient and encouraging with the kids?  What if she had given each individual attention at some point, and the child seemed to really thrive from that?  What if the teacher asked for the parents to participate a lot?  What if they really thrived there and learned skills you could not teach them?  What if they really enjoyed playing with new playmates at the pool and there was a Japanese child in the class who didnt speak much english but over time the two kids played together anyway and that child became the impetus for your child to want to study japanese?  (This happened with my younger brother, whose best friend from elementary school Kazu was the reason he learned fluent japanese, and he has even been to visit Kazu who is now back in Japan). I think if school for your kids is like the class at the Y, I would agree, homeschool away!  But I'm not sure the Y classes are the best out there, and if that one experience would be what your children experience across the board.  But that said, I really feel like you know your child, and you know how they do best and you know the type of environments available to them.  It sounds like with a mom like that, your children will do fine anyway.  I hope you find a way to make it work so that your husband feels comfortable!  This dilemma is a long way off for us, but I am resolved to search high and low to find the highest quality environment for my children available, and if something doesnt meet my standards perhaps I would consider homeschooling too.  Good luck to you and your husband, it sounds like you are going through a lot but your devotion to your husband and your children just sang out from your post very beautifully.

I think the important thing in a dilemma like this (and probably most dilemmas) is not for someone (say, me) to make an assumption that all schools are as enlightened and high quality with nurturing teachers as those I went to and benefited from and also not for others (perhaps, say Stormbride) to make the assumption that all public schools are hellish ordeals to survive and suffer through.  Probably your children will respond to group school or homeschool each in a unique way and the decision should be made child by child taking everything (the school and teacher available TO THEM, your situation, etc.) at that time.

Edited by sandifromct - 4/26/12 at 6:34pm

[tiqa]

Look, I really appreciate your perspective.  I do, truly.  I'm glad that you had a great experience at public school.  FWIW I went to terrific public schools as well, and I had a bad time at them.  I had some great teachers, I went on some nice field trips, and yes I even had a Japanese best friend that didn't speak English for a while.  And yes, my kids do enjoy having gone to preschool, etc.

But, please take this with a grain of salt, I'm not trying to be rude here - but why are you trying to convince me that homeschooling isn't all that, and I should somehow make peace with public schools?  I'm not against public schools in theory, it's just not what I chose for my kids.  And up until recently, DH had no objections to homeschooling.  I just... I just don't really get why you're trying to talk for public schooling when this is a homeschooling forum.  I guess I'm just a little confused.

Also... why don't you like the Y?  I've joined the Y in four locations now and LOVE them.  I've had great experiences with them wherever I went.  Is there a reason you think that the Y isn't a great learning environment?  Maybe your local branch isn't all that great?  Or maybe you know something I don't.  Because I've never had anything but great experiences there.

[NatalieF]

I was homeschooled all the way through and graduated from homeschool! I've never had any doubts about homeschooling my kids! My little boy is 1. I don't want somebody else teaching my kids-it's my job! :-) ...Train up a child in the way he should go...

[milkybean]

Taxes....we don't all use everything our taxes go towards.  We can't.  We also can't choose what our taxes go for.  My blissfully child free brother pays towards the schools and playgrounds in his city and will NEVER directly benefit from that.  I don't drive on all the roads in my town, and that doesn't bother me.

Now, we rent, so our involvement in knowing what taxes we're paying (b/c our money goes to the landlady so she can pay those taxes) is much less than an owner or mortgage-holder, but still, I think when it comes to school taxes, it's best to just ignore it.  Taxes help the society around us with things we might never benefit from, and if we make peace with that it's better.

Sometimes, while having a stare-down with my son  while explaining again why he does need to do his learning work, or trying to figure out how he can easily read the signs at the grocery store but not his very simple reader, I think "it would be so much easier to let someone else teach him".  But...I was public-schooled and I know what would happen.  I would swap these stresses for OTHER stresses.  I'd spend more for clothes (3 pairs of jeans wouldn't take him far), I would have to deal with the teachers at meetings, I would have umpteen *different* stresses than what I have now.  Add to that what you mentioned about how the kids got sick more, you had to take them out for other reasons, etc etc etc, and it would be so much worse, I believe, in your family than in mine.  

I'm so glad you mentioned Disney.  :)  My son learned to wait in line at Disney (this is a big memory of mine from school, waiting in line, especially in elementary school).  He learned to raise his hand with a question at the Animation Academy at California Adventure, and *did so* that day, when he needed help from the Animator cast member (I should mention that he was 3 at the time).  He has learned about crowds and how to behave in them, about how other people are interesting, etc etc etc, all from that.  I tell you, he has learned more about proper social interaction (as well as what NOT to do) in the 4, almost 5, years we've been going to Disneyland, WDW, and Universal, than I EVER learned in school.  Especially b/c the nonsense behavior that can be seen as "cool" in school (the guys in my 5th grade class that literally caused a "nervous breakdown" in our teacher were 3 of the "coolest" boys in our school, even though their behavior was absolutely reprehensible...none of us was going to tell them to stop) is so obviously just plain old rude, when someone does it at Disney (like being rude to a CM, cutting in line, etc etc).

My son has also learned these things from the Y.  He has learned so much more about *proper* social interaction while *not* being at school than I ever learned while AT school.  

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

The second argument I can't even respond to rationally. I'm not "normal". I was a misfit, and a "weird" kid, and all the rest. And, all the mainstreaming, public school, etc. in the world didn't change that. What school did accomplish was to drive me farther into my shell, and pretty much cripple my social development. I'm 43 years old, and I've only been coming out of that state for a few years. I still have an inordinate amount of difficultly coping with almost all social situation, and a small social comfort zone...and I developed most of that at school. Before school (middle/high school, in particular) did its number on me, I was "shy", but was able to move out of my comfort zone on my own terms. By the time school was done with me, I couldn't move out of it at all. I've never met a "weird' kid who was any less weird for having been public schooled. I've met lots of "weird" kids who got a lot more grief about being weird, because of public school, though.

I agree so much with Storm.

Originally Posted by ncma 

3.  If you get burned out, you *can* send them to school.  Homeschooling is one option when it comes to education.  So are public, parochial and private schools.  Choosing one does not mean you can not change later on. What you want to do is pick the best choice for you and your family and periodically re-evaluate it.  You may find that different children within the same family need different things.

Good luck!

Absolutely!  A decision now isn't set in stone.  

And the different kids thing...yes.  My mom actually knew about homeschooling, but hid the knowledge from me because she felt too "stupid" to do it (which was quite literally caused by a change in schools where she went from the "college track" program to the more vocational program, simply because NY school programs didn't translate to CA school programs, and it absolutely destroyed her confidence inside of ONE year of high school).  She also worked, and needed, frankly, a FREE place for me and my brother to be during the day.  I would have thrived learning at home.  I died emotionally trying to learn at school.  On the other hand, my brother had an opposite personality, and would have reacted the opposite way if kept at home!

Originally Posted by tiqa 

So apparently tonight DH's feelings were brought up a bit more.  He's upset that after I put the kids to bed after spending all day with them, that I go sit down and try to work on the computer.  Sometimes I just veg out, other times I do things like pay the bills and other things I can't do during the day, do our online grocery shopping, that sort of thing.  I used to be able to write my novels during this time (or study for class) but I haven't even had time for that in ages.  He was kind of passive aggressive about it and went to bed at like seven because he was "lonely".  I guess I need to spend more adult time with him.  Argh. .....

......Looking at it from this perspective, I think that the big thing is, what would I be doing all day long if the kids were in school?  I can't get a job, volunteer.  DH doesn't really leave the house.  I suppose it would bother him if I used that time for my writing.  I think the only way he'd be satisfied is if I just played video games with him all day.  But I don't even play video games... Hmm.  I don't know how much about this thread is about homeschooling anymore, tbh.

I think that if you sent them to school, you would be getting the stresses of school, without eliminating ANY of the stresses you have now.  I think that, if anything, *you* would be in a worse situation, stress-wise.  Major hugs to you, it's got to be so so hard.

Originally Posted by MP McDonald 

Speaking of writing, if you have a novel or two completed, polish those babies, get someone to beta read them. (the more the better--can find people on various writing sites), get a cover or, if you have any kind of photoshop skills, make your own, and get that baby up on Amazon. Right there, you can start making money and help with some of that stress. If you haven't completed them, do so! You are sitting on passive income once they are uploaded. (assuming they are good and not full of typos, etc) You could try for a traditional publisher, but the odds are bad, and frankly, you probably wouldn't make as much and you'd lose the rights to your novel for an indefinite period of time, but you never know, you could be one of the lucky few and end up with a bestseller. (you could also sell a ton of self-published books too, and keep more of the royalty)

YES!  

As the kids get just a bit older, they WILL be able to give you bits of time to work on the book.  And especially if they get caught up in some aspect of learning-work (what we call it), you will have some time there as well.  What's going on now won't go on forever.  The books can get done.  Find an editor (my chiropractor has a finished book, and he's finding the money for a professional editor to look over it), make the book polished, and self-publish it on amazon!  Most definitely!

Originally Posted by tiqa 

As for why I want to homeschool vs public school, my opinion can be summed up in a very short little anecdote.

When we were in FL my kids learned how to swim really well.  Like, they spent hours in the pool every day and can do flips in it and can swim across the pool a bunch of times and they're totally dependable.  They can dive in and retrieve things from the bottom, all that.

When I signed them up for swim lessons at the Y we were totally disappointed.  The teacher made them feel bad because they weren't doing the strokes properly and she "didn't trust" that they could swim without flotation devices (when I had seen them swim much greater distances with no problem) and they had to do everything one at a time and most of the 30 minute lesson was spent at the side of the pool or them being told they were "doing it wrong".  And we had to deal with getting there on time, rushing to change at the locker room, etc.  It was just not the same experience at all.  I understand there are benefits to swim lessons too, but it was just a very different experience.  They had much more fun and learned a lot more without formal lessons.  The teacher wasn't the problem, she was nice and obviously had a lot of experience and the kids liked her well enough.  But she had to prevent six preschoolers from drowning, AND keep the parents and her bosses happy, so there were just logistics that she had to deal with.  I view that as similar across the board, whether it's just a swimming lesson or a whole day's worth of education.

FWIW, the Y has a very very specific way of teaching swimming.  

When my son and I visit my brother in CA, the boy swims like a fish for hours and hours.  He jumps in, he goes to the bottom to retrieve things we put in the water for that purpose, he swims and swims and swims.  When he's in class, it's totally different.  He needs to do it their way.  Not his way, not some other swim class way, but the way of the Y.  It is what it is!

And, frankly, he's not that great doing it the way the Y wants him to do it.  IMO they want kids to be able to join their swim team after, and do the strokes properly.  They don't want just survival and fun, they want it to look good at the same time.  

Just in case you didn't know that, I wanted to mention it.  

When DS was 5 he took part in the Y's (now defunct) Homeschool PE program.  2 days a week, almost 2 hours each time.  When they had their swimming sessions, he was amazing.  Then the next day, during his class, it was like he was a different person, his swimming ability was so different!

I wish you the BEST of luck with this decision.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by sandifromct 

I actually think I agree with Stormbride too.  It sounds like Stormbride, you were suffering in every possible way in public school and your parents should ABSOLUTELY have homeschooled you.

I graduated in 1986. I don't even know if homeschooling was a legal option here at that time. If it was, my mom and dad certainly didn't know about it. School was the only option on the table, and trying to get us through it created a lot of unnecessary, and damaging, stress in my family. (And, for all my mom's efforts, I'm the only one of three of us who even managed to make it to grad. Both my siblings dropped out. The only reason that I didn't was because I believed that would be a "win" for the bullies.)

I would never argue that a child or young adult doing badly or not enjoying somewhere should remain there.  That is horrible!  If a classroom is full of students who are bullied, not nurtured by their teacher and the child is developing poor self-esteem, I would be the first to argue for a change, and I also think homeschool can be a wonderful option for many kids that by their nature, perhaps being more introverted or just whatever the case is, just are not enjoying public school (or private school, I mean a NON-homeschool when I say public).  I really think it is what I described before:  check into everything.  If you feel you can find a truly enlightened caring and nurturing teacher, with a good child-to-teacher ratio, and your child seems happy and learning there and exposed to many other children from different families, that sounds like a great option (to this mom).  I also though would probably choose homeschool if my child had a horrible teacher and I couldnt find a different solution, or even if the teacher seemed fine but she just didnt seem to be thriving there.  I think that makes worlds of sense. 

Sure. But, I'm not sure my mom ever even realized that it was school itself that was the problem. I had some really good teachers (they never inspired me, the way teachers seem to inspire some people, but I could recognize that they were good teachers), and some bad teachers, and some mediocre teachers, and a couple of out and out abusive teachers. That wasn't the issue. (In fact, one of the classes I liked somewhat more - or at least disliked somewhat less - than the others was with a teacher who was a bully...but the material moved a good pace, and it was a subject that I had some interest in.) Class size wasn't the issue.  The issue was school...schedules, requirements, tests, oral reports, covering the same work over and over and over, being stuck with kids I couldn't relate to because they lived in a nearby neighbourhood and were born the same year (and were therefore my "peers"), etc. etc. It had nothing to do with the teachers or the teacher student ratios. It was about being in school.

Public school is a miserable experience for a lot of kids. Our culture knows that. Our culture talks about that. Our culture portrays that in movies and books. Our culture uses that in ads. Our culture jokes about that. After all that....our culture tries to pretend that it's not true, or that the real issue is that "kids don't like/want to learn". Our culture doesn't question whether the problem might be in the system, so the problem must be in the kids.

For the comparison of the Y, I think the scenario you described accurately shows the comparison between homeschool and poor public school.  But what about if the swimming instructor had been really gifted patient and encouraging with the kids?  What if she had given each individual attention at some point, and the child seemed to really thrive from that?  What if the teacher asked for the parents to participate a lot?  What if they really thrived there and learned skills you could not teach them? 

The OP specifically said that the teacher was a good one. The problem was the structure of the lessons.

What if they really enjoyed playing with new playmates at the pool and there was a Japanese child in the class who didnt speak much english but over time the two kids played together anyway and that child became the impetus for your child to want to study japanese?  (This happened with my younger brother, whose best friend from elementary school Kazu was the reason he learned fluent japanese, and he has even been to visit Kazu who is now back in Japan).

I don't even understand arguments like this one. My kids attend a homeschooling coop with a couple little boys who growing up to be bilingual in English and Spanish.  A neighbourhood friend came in and taught ds2 how to count to ten in Japanese, just a couple days ago. My oldest son went to school with all kinds of kids, with different backgrounds, for 13 years. The most he ever learned about another culture was when he was asked to participate in a close friend's debut, as a "Rose" (Phillipine tradition). Maybe I should have pulled him out school, because "what if" he'd met some other homeschool child who could teach him to speak Farsi? If the structure of the lessons was so frustrating for OP and her children, a good teacher and/or a Japanese classmate aren't going to fix that.

I think if school for your kids is like the class at the Y, I would agree, homeschool away!  But I'm not sure the Y classes are the best out there, and if that one experience would be what your children experience across the board.  But that said, I really feel like you know your child, and you know how they do best and you know the type of environments available to them.  It sounds like with a mom like that, your children will do fine anyway.  I hope you find a way to make it work so that your husband feels comfortable!  This dilemma is a long way off for us, but I am resolved to search high and low to find the highest quality environment for my children available, and if something doesnt meet my standards perhaps I would consider homeschooling too.  Good luck to you and your husband, it sounds like you are going through a lot but your devotion to your husband and your children just sang out from your post very beautifully.

I think the important thing in a dilemma like this (and probably most dilemmas) is not for someone (say, me) to make an assumption that all schools are as enlightened and high quality with nurturing teachers as those I went to and benefited from and also not for others (perhaps, say Stormbride) to make the assumption that all public schools are hellish ordeals to survive and suffer through.  Probably your children will respond to group school or homeschool each in a unique way and the decision should be made child by child taking everything (the school and teacher available TO THEM, your situation, etc.) at that time.

I missed where I assumed that all public schools are hellish ordeals to survive and suffer through. That's what public school was for me. That's what public school was for a lot of people I know. I'm in touch with a lot of people that I graduated with, way back when, and I've discovered that it was pretty hellish for people I thought were doing okay, too. That doesn't mean it's like that for everyone. (I know at least one former classmate who loved school, loved almost all the teachers, and is genuinely shocked that so many of us were miserable at her wonderful school.)  I never suggested that it did. What I don't see is why OP should default to starting out with public school, instead of homeschool (which is what she wants to do), because you found public school to be a wonderful experience. Your entire initial post came across as an anti-homeschooling screed. There's no reason to start out with public school, and see how that works. The other way around is every bit as legitimate.

And, I do have to say, once again, that "nurturing teachers" aren't the issue for many of us who hated school. The issue was school. The teachers were, by and large, just fine. But, all the nurturing teachers in the world can't change the system or structure. For some/many people, these things:

• age groupings (supposedly peer groupings, but they're not),
• switching from math to French when you're really in a math groove,
• having to ask permission to go pee,
• sitting through another lesson on something you understood fully the first time or before,
• losing your own leisure (in my case, reading) time to homework you could as easily have done in the above class where you weren't learning anything, anyway
• phys ed classes at the pool with the opposite sex when you're in the early - and visible - throes of puberty
• phys ed, in general...the "last kid to be picked" is a great topic for jokes...unless you're that kid,
• prerequisites/graduation requirements (eff you if you're a whiz at everything, except Science, and you're never ever going to use Science - you can't grad without it)
• marks for how tidy your binder is, even though you function better when you organize your way,
• and more

are the problem. The teachers aren't even relevant. There is no teacher good enough to make the school system tolerable for some of us. Sure, some people do just fine, but that doesn't mean public school has to be the default.

[pohaha]

I live in southern California and we started our son in a nice newer local public school for Kinder after thinking for years we would homeschool.  We wanted the spanish immersion program and we wanted him to be part of the local neighborhood community....you know, kids growing up together, parents hanging out.

I was really stressed out the first semester because my son was having majoy tantrums for the first time and progressively disliked school even though he was very excited in the beginning.  He kept leaving class without permission to see the principal so he could call me. I wanted to observe his class so I could identify the problem. His teacher would not allow me to volunteer in the class when I wanted or in the capacity I offerred  (only 1 parent per day was permitted, and only during specified times).  They (teachers and PTC) only wanted me for when they needed it.  Also, most of my suggestions and concerns were met with blank stares and shrugs of This Is How We Do It.  For example, they eliminated indoor play time so they didn't have any play kitchen, puzzles, blocks, dramatic play, painting, etc.  So when the kids had to be indoors for recess like on rainy days or for poor air quality the teachers played Scooby Doo videos because they had nothing else to do.  When we spoke with the principal about this she failed to see the problem and refused to reinstate indoor play or any type of play-based learning.  She felt that kids would do better at end of year district assessments if they had those 10-15 extra minutes of writing/reading/math (it was a half day program and they felt crunched for time).  Their absolute focus is Writing and Math.  No science, no art, no music.  After doing some research I discovered this is a district, state, and national trend of eliminating "play" in the classroom whether it is half or full day.  My husband printed research articles from allianceforchildhood.org and we gave them to the principal so she could see the developmental value of play.  I don't even think she read it.  The last straw is when my son went missing from his class, and his teacher did not alert the office or anyone.  I happened to find him at the rear of the school.  His teacher's and principals attitude was All is well that ends well.  So, we feel he will be better off homeschooling.

My suggestion for families who are thinking of homeschooling is to go do an observation of the kinder class(es) at your prospective elemetary school (alone, not with your kids).  You will need to make an appointment to do this.  See how open they are to you coming in and how long they let you stay.  There should be no problem for you to observe a whole class session....unless they are trying to hide something.  Go with your instincts.  You may be pleasently surpsrised at the school and decide you want your kids to go there.  Or you may get some great ideas for what you want to do or not do in your homeschooling program.  I observed and visited several schools in the area and got some great ideas and met some wonderful teachers.  The better schools were charter schools and unfortunately are full or run on a lottery....the public schools here apparently have not caught on to the idea yet that the charters are providing competition in order to improve public schools' programs. 

So, visit the schools, sit in on a whole class, speak with the teachers, follow your gut.  Bring a notepad to take notes :) 

Also, homeschooling, while a monumental task, is not more time-consuming than being a stay at home mom with them.  That is, as long as you all are reading a lot, being creative, playing games, playing outside.  It will just have a bit more structure (as in, you will probably want to to certain stuff on a daily basis).  A math curiculum I really like is Everyday Mathematics from University of Chicago.  Its not very expensive and your homeschool charter may even be able to purchase it for you.  Its all hands-on and lot of fun, with real math skills.  We get beginner reader books from the library because I feel they are very expensive for what you get if you buy them.  My son also practices reading his baby board books.  We read chapter books to him, and he can listen for hours.  We get into nature several times per week for hikes, observing native plants, animals, and habitats.  I like the Little Acorn Learning website for extra activites and observing of the seasons (its waldorf) but I can't afford it so I get ideas from blogs and get more info from google. The running joke theme of our homeschool is "We do stuff."  Meaning we are always finding opportunities for learning and discovery.   But really, I try to have science underscore everything and I hope to cultivate bio-literacy...the ability to see all the little details in nature (rather than just "weeds" or "trees"....but smooth leaves, rough bark, american coots vs. common moorehens).   

Best of luck, and remember....enjoy your days with your family, and ultimately *you* need to make the best choice for yourself because you will be the one doing the work.

Edited by pohaha - 5/3/12 at 11:33am

[Cassidy68]

Originally Posted by pohaha 

...we wanted him to be part of the local neighborhood community....you know, kids growing up together, parents hanging out.

Yup, this was us too. Always assumed my son would go to public school. I felt slightly mixed when the time came-- a little sad about him being gone all day, but also pretty excited about all the time I was going to have to focus on writing. I volunteered in the classroom, loved the school community, went to every school meeting in that kindergarten year.

But as it turned out, the initial enthusiasm my son had wore off within weeks and he just did not like school at all. It was not a good fit for my him... and after a year of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole-- which wasn't making anyone happy-- we started unschooling. For us, it has been the best thing ever and I feel so fortunate that we can do this.

Just started blogging about why we don't send our son  to school...and realized that just listing all the reasons would require a book :)

[Jackie mom]

Dear OP,

I saw your thread a couple weeks ago, and have been thinking about your story ever since. I am one of the people who believe that your issues/questions are less about looking for good arguments/reasons for homeschooling, and more about balancing your family's needs while your husband is not well.

I am a home educating mother of two, and my husband is not well. I understand what it's like to try to stay out of dh's space and to try to keep the children engaged and happy, while also trying to meet dh's needs.

I am not going to try to offer any advice. I just wanted to tell you that I identified with your story, and I feel inspired by you.

Thank you

[ihave7kids]

Just read your post...wish I had read it sooner!  I think you really have a quandry here.  As a homeschooling mom of 7, I can tell you that it is wonderful, but hard work to do it well.  I am not sure that I could do it and care for a husband who is disabled at the same time.  I guess you need to balance the needs of everyone in the family in order to do the best for everyone in a difficult situation.  You need to ask yourself if you can teach them well while caring for your husband and not loose your sanity or burn out.  On a positive note, teaching Kindergarten and the lower grades is really pretty simple.  If you go into the school year with an organized lesson plan and clear goals to stick to, it isn't difficult and only takes about 45 min to one hour per day (for K).  Hope that helps.  Best of luck to you!

[thefragile7393]

Originally Posted by Mrsbaran 

I am going to try to tackle some good responses to DH for you.

Let me first tell you that I have 2 children: girl 19, graduated public schools and boy age 3 1/2 home schooled. I have a husband who also is skeptical about homeschooling.

First of all regarding the tax thing:  We all pay public school taxes and I understand that yours are extremely high.  I live in AZ.  I think this state is pretty home school friendly.  We have options for "school" for home schooled children.  First of all, because we pay taxes, we have the ability to send our kids to a public school for just one or two subjects.  This would pertain more to grades 6 and up where the kids are in different classes for each subject.  But we also have special public schools designed for home schooled children where the kids go to school 1 or 2 days a week with ONLY other home schooled children.  The education is different than a mainstream school.  But because they are publicly funded, they still have to meet testing standards in math and reading, and that is fine with me.  Perhaps there are schools like these in your area?  Also, my friend kids go to a private school 3 days a week and are home schooled 2 days a week.  There is tuition, but I believe there is a tax credit for parents who send their kids to private school. I am not sure how your state is, but I would look into these options.

I will be sending my 3 yr old to the once a week public school option when he gets to kindergarten. 

If you discover any of these options in your area, then the rest of DH's objections will be resolved because you and he will get some personal time and also they will learn what "mainstream" life is...whatever that means.  I mean who defines "normal"?  And you can still home school. 

I would say that joining a home school group that fits you and your kids' personalities will do just as good to teach your children what life expects from them as will 5 day a week public school.  Have you looked into that yet?  Home school groups organize weekly activities for the kids as a group.  Like park day and field trips, etc.  Then they will make friends with other home schoolers, so they won't feel like they don't fit in.

And lastly, the time and stress issue.  Having had one child in public school for her entire school years...I would have to say you are right about it being more stressful.  You constantly have to be on the school's schedule. It's very stressful to deal with early wake ups, mean teachers (not that they all are), bullying classmates, homework papers, your kids crying that they don't want to go, and the list goes on and on.  Additionally, your children get lost in the shuffle.  They will not get the individual attention they need.  too many kids in the classroom.  I absolutely hated having my daughter in reg public schools.  I have been teaching my son to read since he was 6 months old.  He started reading at 10 months and he reads better than my friend's child who is in 2nd grade.  The education and experiences you give your children at home FAR exceed what can be given to them at reg public schools.  You can structure your days just like school with start and end times and checklists, so they will learn to be on schedule and complete tasks.  That is pretty mainstream.  Most of my friends home school their children.  One thing we agree on is we don't want our children being taught bad behaviors from other children whose parents don't care as much...like swear words, bullying, kids who might introduce cigarettes, drugs, porn, etc to our children...you can keep better tabs on them when they are home schooled, and better protect them from a lot of negative influences.  When they get older, they will learn about bad things naturally and you will tell them and warn them.  When they are small and sweet, keep them that way as long as you can.  Home schooling will help with that. 

I really hope this has helped you some. I also hope you can find a school like we have here in AZ...the one or two day a week thing.  I just can't imagine that there wouldn't be something in NY like that. 

Good luck and stick to your guns.  Remember, you aren't married to any decision.  You could possibly come to a compromise where you can try home schooling for a year and see how you and DH feel after that. 

Blessing to you!

Where in AZ is all this?
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[greenacresmama]

Hmmm. My DH stays at home too. I have deep issues at all kinds of things with him. I feel very fortunate he is a great dad but we have different reasons and outlooks on life skills and teaching practices. He sometimes really tears me down and it isn't to do so but really a lack of faith or a feeling of so much lack in our schooling at home. He also sees me dogging school and the system and gets really on edge. Please look up these videos about schooling; valedictorian speaks out against school (in ny btw), freedom in education, school is prison interview with professor from Boston college, and Ted talk on educational reform. Besides that..

I think you life is meaningful with your children, priceless and divine. I would personally try to involve my children in the life of their father in any healthy way possible, but not loads. I wonder if when they get older be will feel more for them and seek out their company more often as they are calmer and more able to communicate. I feel so strongly that life is full to the brim these days and we fill it that way. Your book should be possible, not like scheduled but even daydreamed and spoken to a recorder.. Somehow you should put those visions down. My life is busy saving money, cleaning house, making healthy juices (would that help his mode? Exercise? Playing other more magical more childlike video games? Would you allow your children to video game with him for just the sake of getting them to let you have time alone?)

Not to sound odd.. But.. We are all special beings. I hear my DH's arguments (a lot like yours plus others) and I don't try to blacklist public school.. Actually did the freedom in school research because I needed another teaching method and more of communication. Anyway.. I am actually really feeling hopeless today and found your post. I almost want to public school because we harmony is fleeting and unstable....... I feel so strongly that my child will be a healer to the world by the way I feel right to raise him. I don't find the issue of fitting in to be as important because it seems to muddle down the passions he may have. DH seems to want to open ever door for him and I find that to be oberwhelming. I feel exploring is the right way, but just as maybe a religious family would, I want areas of violence and war to be distanced and finally when the time comes, to show how peace talks and studies, or our words are the highest good not our weapons. In a sense... Homeschooling is a balance of a families virtues and a child's passion. I find it hard to balance this as it is. When you put a child into society way of educating it may turn out that the virtues are muddled and the child's passions watered down with all the choices. Some people really do take their whole life to be what they wanted to be 5 different times and not just at 18. Though the years with their parents (knowing them and getting loved) seems to be the most important before they turn 21.

I hope so much you grow your family together and that the divine keeps you close, your love being the ultimate reward and shining brighter than the toughest times. I hope you DH looks back in a few years with tears to recognize all that homeschooling is to the family and how fortunate it is to him to have them so close.

During the hardest times and choices in my life I have always burned a tall blank prayer candle for the highest vibration to come and lifting up my life, answering questions and leading me to the most divine or acting with the most wisedom and love. It works.. Even before and while I am sweeping and then to blow it out.. It works.

[tiqa]

OP here.  I haven't checked in on the thread in a while.  In the meantime, I've gone and toured the local public school.  There's good and bad to it.  I've met with the principal who seems like a great guy.  The school itself is fantastically pretty.  Plants everywhere, murals, etc.  The kids seem happy enough.  The teachers seem young and enthusiastic.  There are art projects on the walls.  The library looks cool.  It just looks like a nice place.  If it ends up being our back-up plan, that's fine.

But it confirmed my decision to homeschool, at least for now.  I believe in a Waldorf-y environment for young kids.  There are no local Waldorf schools, and I don't particularly believe in their curriculums for later on down the line, but I believe that delayed academics (unless they ask for more focused work, which my kids do sometimes), open, creativity-inspiring environments, free play, beautiful and natural surroundings, etc. are important for young children.  I looked at the Pre-K and Kindergarten classrooms and they're all very cluttered and I hardly saw any toys.  It's all about academics.  And there's a huge push for computer based learning even at the young ages; on a daily basis.  There aren't even whiteboards anymore, it's all done via smartboards on the computer.  We don't allow media at home other than music and the very limited DVD.  It's just a complete different tactic than we are trying to go for, for their early childhoods at least. 

I've decided that I'm going to get them into a childcare/ mother's helper type of situation in the afternoons so we'll have a few hours off.  The mornings DH is usually in bed anyway and that's when I'm most productive.  The afternoons is when everyone goes stir crazy.  So we'll do lessons in the morning, have lunch, I'll get a break from them, and then together for the evenings.  It's still getting a break and I can still shape their early education the way I believe is best.  We'll re-evaluate later on down the line.

DH has gone back to not really caring.  He was looking at a kindergarten worksheet (we have some workbooks lying around in case they ask to do some) and he asked the kid what kind of shapes there were on it, and DS starts saying things like, well that's an equilateral triangle, and that's a scalene one, and there are no trapezoids but he'll draw one because that's his favorite shape, and two trapezoids make a hexagon, and DH kind of gave up and said I can homeschool them if I wanted.  Hee.

[rebecca_n]

He was looking at a kindergarten worksheet (we have some workbooks lying around in case they ask to do some) and he asked the kid what kind of shapes there were on it, and DS starts saying things like, well that's an equilateral triangle, and that's a scalene one, and there are no trapezoids but he'll draw one because that's his favorite shape, and two trapezoids make a hexagon, and DH kind of gave up and said I can homeschool them if I wanted.  Hee.

nak

[pek64]

I just skimmed through some of these posts. I saw the one about a valedictorian speaking out on the subject. I was valedictorian of my high school class, and opted to homeschool. My own experiences involved bullying, boredom, wasted time, and useless material. That said, homeschooling is about the whole family. We took it year by year, and never put my son in school. However, it created situations that pulled my marriage apart. I do still believe homeschooling was best, but be aware it affects other things like finances, time with your spouse, and your personal stress and well being.

Best of luck to all!