Quick and simple response as to why we don't vaccinate?

[bluedaisy]

MORE INFO/DEFENSE IN POST 36

I have a 3yr old and a 3 month old - neither are vaccinated. 

We just got jobs with an organization that will be sending us to Kampala, Uganda.  We will be in a middle class neighborhood and don't plan to travel with the kids.  Both are breastfed.  I've done research about diseases incidence in Kampala and don't feel like the kids are at risk for any serious vaccine preventable diseases so we won't vaccinate.

Both Dh and I got vaccines before we had kids and did research, so our vaccines are somewhat up to date with what our organization recommends.

We don't advertise the fact that we don't vaccinate but had to fill out medical forms and our organization will know our kids have not received any,

I want a short one or two sentence response as to why we don't vaccinate.  It's such a complex topic that we have spent hundreds of hours researching.

We are open to vaccinating in the future if there is an outbreak of a serious disease that our children are at a high risk of catching.  Most people cannot fathom how we could be bringing our kids to Uganda without any vaxes.

I also don't know if international schools also require vaccines and if exemptions are possible - does anyone have experience with that?

Edited by bluedaisy - 5/4/12 at 7:07pm

[katelove]

My short response is that we have concerns about the safety of vaccines. If the person asks further the next question is usually "such as what?". My response to this is that I don't think the testing is as rigorous as it could be and I ask if they know that prevenar32 was tested using prevenar13 as the placebo. The questioning usually stops there.

It's a fairly major distillation of a complex issue but it's a satisfactory nutshell response for me.

[emmy526]

You could say you have a family tendencies towards adverse reactions and you are waiting til they are older and their immune system is more mature, or you could say you don't approve of the ingredients, or it goes against your beliefs, or you're not convinced allopathic meds are for your family or not enough legit studies have been done to your satisfaction in regards to safety and efficacy or you just don't believe in  this practice....not sure of exemptions, tho..

[emma1325]

"Our doctor has advised us to avoid vaccines in absence of a direct disease risk, since the long-term side effects have not been studied."

That's what I tend to say. Blaming it on a doctor seems to really make people stop, since so many are trained to respect the medical opinions of doctors.

Of course, it hasn't always been a completely honest response for us, since our doctor was a natural-minded chiropractor, who many conventional-thinking folk might classify as a quack.  But lately we've visited an MD, who has been trained in the complexities of the immune system and vaccine risks, and she recommends no vaccines in absence of a direct disease risk.  So now we're not lying.  :)

[bmorehon]

I suspect that the organization you are traveling with will require vaccination.  Even if they do not, as an infectious disease surveillance professional, I strongly recommend that you do seek vaccination before leaving - epidemics of meningococcal disease and hepatitis B are not uncommon in Uganda, and polio has been reintroduced to the country on multiple occasions in recent years.  

What does your organization recommend for malaria prophylaxis? 

[stik]

You may be running a risk of not being allowed to travel to Uganda with unvaccinated dependents, if your organization feels very strongly about managing their insurance costs. You may need to consider giving up the position or leaving your children in the states if you are unwilling/unable to vaccinate. Is there someone at your organization with whom you could have a confidential conversation about the potential employment consequences of your vax decisions?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by bmorehon 

I suspect that the organization you are traveling with will require vaccination.  Even if they do not, as an infectious disease surveillance professional, I strongly recommend that you do seek vaccination before leaving - epidemics of meningococcal disease and hepatitis B are not uncommon in Uganda, and polio has been reintroduced to the country on multiple occasions in recent years.  

What does your organization recommend for malaria prophylaxis? 

Do you have any evidence that hepatitis B can be easily transmitted to the OP's children if they are not sexually active nor sharing needles with infected people?

[bmorehon]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2707048/

"In regions of high endemicity [such as Uganda], HBV is mainly contracted at birth or during early childhood. The development of chronic infection occurs in approximately 90% of persons infected perinatally, in 30% infected in early childhood and in 6% infected after 5 years of age."

From the WHO ((http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/)):

"Common modes of transmission in developing countries are:

• perinatal (from mother to baby at birth)
• early childhood infections (inapparent infection through close interpersonal contact with infected household contacts)*
• unsafe injections practices
• blood transfusions
• sexual contact"

 

The risk of chronic infection is also increased when infection occurs during childhood.

 

• * While the parents may be HBV-negative in this case, the children will doubtless have contact with other adults and children in the neighborhood.  

[stik]

I am not an infectious disease surveillance professional, but it is my understanding that because Hep B is so transmissable (survives 7 days outside the body, present in bodily fluids), household transmission from caregivers to young children have been documented.  It could be an issue if the OP contracts HepB herself, which she might be at risk for if her job is in health care.  It could also be an issue if the family hires a local nanny to help care for the children while both parents work.  There are a lot of ways to contract HepB in neighborhoods without sanitation, and most of Kampala's population lives well under the global poverty line (the website "In Kampala" reports that a lot of people make less than a dollar a day), which means large communities without services like running water and closed sewers. 

I respect that this is the "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum, and I want to be careful not to be contradicting the purpose of this forum.  I want to be very, very clear that I understand that it is not appropriate to come to this particular forum and encourage people to vaccinate.  I do, however, think that travel to Uganda with young unvaccinated children may carry more risks than the original poster is anticipating.  It might be safest to leave one parent in the states with the children.
 

[Youngfrankenstein]

It doesn't seem fair that you and your husband will have the advantages of being vaxed and you're leaving the children so vulnerable.  I think getting them up to date on what is necessary is only fair.

[stik]

To be honest, even as a person who vaccinates and considers vaccination largely effective, I wouldn't travel to Uganda with any 3 month old.  As the OP notes, they aren't planning to travel with the children in country, so it's not like the 3yo is going to get some kind of benefit from the multicultural experience of living in another country, and the baby won't remember it anyway.  The situation seems to offer no benefit for the children.  If all they are going to experience is a middle class neighborhood - you can find those in the US. 

[cloe]

I don't think there is anything you could write in a few sentences that would justify taking two small children to Uganda un-vaxed. Are you honestly saying that they require vaxes for adults and not children/babies?

[freestylemama]

I had a colleague in graduate school who lost her child in Ghana to a VPD.  Please reconsider your decision not to vaccinate or do not take the job.

[ssun5]

Ok guys, this is enough!

This is the NOT VACCINATING forum.

She DID NOT ask to be told how stupid she is, "she is leaving her kids vulnerable (how selfish!) hear horror stories about some kid dying or any of your other thoughts.

Can she at least and all of us who are here get some respect from yall to make hers and our own decisions.

She asked for a way to tell others about her already made decision, not to come to a Not vaccinating board to be put down or this is why you should vaccinate.

Knock it off for all of us please.

She doesn't need to "justify" her actions to any of you. And this is not the right forum to be debating such issues.
 

[Llyra]

This is a clinic in Kampala that provides medical care to travelers. They are on the ground, in that city, and I would imagine their advice comes from experience. I would be inclined to give their advice more credence than the advice of anybody on here.

http://www.thesurgeryuganda.org/trop_med.htm

http://www.thesurgeryuganda.org/advice_travellers.htm

[amma_mama]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

Ok guys, this is enough!

This is the NOT VACCINATING forum.

She DID NOT ask to be told how stupid she is, "she is leaving her kids vulnerable (how selfish!) hear horror stories about some kid dying or any of your other thoughts.

Can she at least and all of us who are here get some respect from yall to make hers and our own decisions.

She asked for a way to tell others about her already made decision, not to come to a Not vaccinating board to be put down or this is why you should vaccinate.

Knock it off for all of us please.

She doesn't need to "justify" her actions to any of you. And this is not the right forum to be debating such issues.

 

It may be an anti-vax forum, but it should not be an anti-intelligent discussion forum. There are real risks to an un-vaxed infant in Uganda. If the OP does not want to vax, then she should consider keeping her babies where they are and not unnecessarily expose them to a higher level of risk. As far as a middle-class neighborhood is concerned, disease in Uganda does not discriminate on socio-economic grounds. That is NOT an intelligent safety strategy in considering whether or not to vax.

[Mosaic]

Forum guidelines for your review: http://www.mothering.com/community/a/not-vaccinating-forum-guidelines

Please make sure you are posting in response to the OP's questions.

[maeby]

my son isn't vaccinated and i'm pretty grateful that we live in the usa with access to immediate health care and little chance of catching most of the VPDs. that said, if we were moving to uganda or any other developing country, i would attempt to get him vaccinated before we left and continued to vax on schedule in our new country.

[stik]

I'm concerned that the clinic in Kampala is recommending HepA and HepB vaccination even for short term business travel to Uganda.  This suggests that there may be a lot of risk for an infant who is in the country for the long term.  They are also recommending careful adherence to malaria prophylaxis and Yellow Fever vaccination.  Again, I understand the OP is opposed to vaccination, and I am not trying to change her mind.  I note that medevac from Entebbe to Nairobi costs $8K.  I suspect this is a rate for an unaccompanied adult, not an infant with a child, and I don't know what the pediatric facilities are like in Nairobi.  Also, it looks like they only medevac with cash or an insurance policy on hand up-front.  They have not posted costs for evacuation to Johannesburg.  I would want to know before planning a long stay.  This is why I think it's possible that the organization involved here may not allow the children to travel without vaccinations - it's expensive to maintain insurance for this, and more expensive if individuals in your covered group don't vaccinate.

I have not been able to find a website for an international school in Uganda, but as private schools operating outside the US, I think it's possible that they may not accept vaccine exemptions at all.

[ssun5]

It may be an anti-vax forum, but it should not be an anti-intelligent discussion forum. There are real risks to an un-vaxed infant in Uganda. If the OP does not want to vax, then she should consider keeping her babies where they are and not unnecessarily expose them to a higher level of risk. As far as a middle-class neighborhood is concerned, disease in Uganda does not discriminate on socio-economic grounds. That is NOT an intelligent safety strategy in considering whether or not to vax.
 

Again, this is not "anti-Vax" and calling her anti-intelligent.... REALLY!!!!!!  Nope, that's not inflammatory.

If you don't like her reasons, or anyone else, tough cookies.... don't respond.

I have NO FEAR of VPD. Maybe she doesn't either. Its OK. She said she researched Uganda and is fine with it.

I have lived for years in Africa, traveled the world and many in my family live in Indonesia. WE are perfectly fine without vaccination for any age child or adult with all the research we have done so obviously, I have come to different conclusions than you

(and you are welcome to your own decisions for your family!) 

Calling anyone who doesn't agree with you anti-intelligent though is offensive. I don't believe the same about you and all we want here is the same respect to agree to disagree without name calling.

AS for the OP, if she is still around.

We have found that letting others know that we are not getting any period without going into all the details seems to work the best. It is after all medical information and the more you try to make others understand, it seems to make them think you need to justify it. Letting other know, we don't and won't vax under any circumstances... no justification on why works best. If they ask why, I say, nicely... its none of your business as it is a medical history.  No one seems to go on after that. Don't give them anything to argue about and you seem VERY confident in your decision.