Vaccine Safety Curriculum for Medical Residents - American Academy of Pediatrics - Page 5

[Rrrrrachel]

Right, I just wanted to be clear they were ideas with no real evidence behind them.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Wow, those graphs showolio cases increasing as our population increases. I'm shocked.

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Wait wait wait, is that gray saying there were 10k cases of polio in the 90s?

Except that the population did not increase 4 fold between 1920 and 1950, it went from 100 million to 150 million. 

Yeah, I don't know about that. Post polio. I was just interested in the numbers of incidence instead a chart showing deaths. 

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Right, I just wanted to be clear they were ideas with no real evidence behind them.

Evidence seems to be lacking in plenty of areas of vaccine study. 

[Rrrrrachel]

Our population also became denser and more urban.

[slmommy]

but sanitation improved. No more sewage in the streets or tossing chamber pots out the window.

[Rrrrrachel]

Fairly irrelevant for most diseases. People will still breathing and coughing and spitting and there was no Lysol.

I don't know why the increase, for sure, but I think it's not reasonable to think the vaccine had nothing to do with the sudden decrease, and more importantly with the fact that we have no polio in this country today.

[Rrrrrachel]

This is really interesting, I haven't finished the whole thing, yet.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2010/07/01/polio-and-sanitation/

[slmommy]

What did you think?

This looks interesting too, but I haven't read it all yet.

The Age of Polio: How an Old Virus and New Toxins Created a Man-made Epidemic

By Dan Olmsted and Mark Blaxill

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

[Rrrrrachel]

I thought he went off the rails after awhile, which is kind of typical for that website, but made some interesting points.

The thing is they did a randomized controlled double blind while nine yards study of the polio vaccine and it worked!

I have a hard time with things that deny the whole germ theory of illness and substitute it with toxins and nutrition. I think toxins and nutrition are important, but I just don't think we've had the science that wrong all these years.

[purslaine]

nm - I think I should read the whole thread before I post….

[purslaine]

Rachel, I suspect you are using the words "conspiracy theory" in an attempt to discredit posters (non-vaxxers).  As you have said elsewhere, let it be about the ideas, not the people.   Conspiracy theory is a slur deliberately used by some pro-vaxxers to dismiss non-vaxxers, and I don't think it has any place in a discussion.  

Moreover, I read Taxi's post and she did not say "that there is a conspiracy to conceal cases of vaccine preventable diseases by calling them something else."  (your words).  She said that the diagnosis of polio changed and made it difficult to ascertain the real numbers of polio.  Heck, you said something very similar last week on autism - that diagnostic change could make it seems like there were more cases than there were.  You cannot have it both ways.  Diagnostic change - particularly if it happens at the same time a vax is introduced, is relevant when we are looking at numbers.

[Rrrrrachel]

I may have misinterpreted her post. I interpreted it to mean she was saying the polio rate fell because we just call polio something else now (a theory I've seen plenty of places, but may have wrongly attributed here). That is in fact a conspiracy theory. Sorry, but words mean what they mean. If I wanted to discredit her I would have called her a conspiracy theorist.

[Rrrrrachel]

And I have already acknowledged (three or four times now) the diagnostic change probably played a role, but unless someone can show me some numbers that say we have 30-40k more of those other diseases being diagnosed now than then, or that they suddenly went up in 56-60, I don't think you can use that to justify the entire drop (or even most of it), and you certainly can't use it to justify the fact that the polio rate is now ZERO. That is thanks to the vaccine!

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 
Sorry, but words mean what they mean. If I wanted to discredit her I would have called her a conspiracy theorist.

spouting conspiracy theories or a conspiracy theorist?  Not much difference, but whatever.  ("thin" to quote you )

[Rrrrrachel]

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion. I didn't say she was spouting conspiracy theories, either. I called one particular thing a conspiracy theory, which it clearly is (well, what I thought she was talking about is, may not have been what she actually meant).

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

And I have already acknowledged (three or four times now) the diagnostic change probably played a role, but unless someone can show me some numbers that say we have 30-40k more of those other diseases being diagnosed now than then, or that they suddenly went up in 56-60, I don't think you can use that to justify the entire drop (or even most of it), and you certainly can't use it to justify the fact that the polio rate is now ZERO. That is thanks to the vaccine!

I am not trying to justify it.

I was trying to point out that Taximom did not say anything conspiracy-like and that what you were saying was inflammatory.

On topic:  I do think vaccines played a role in the reduction of polio.  

Some vaccines helped lower the chances of some diseases - and some diseases are scary and some are not.  Really, if I could discount the possibility of vaccine reactions, the selective and delayed crowd has it right in my book.  

Back to the OP - I scanned the initial link.  I am not sure what to think of it.  It look like "arguing with parents 101".  It is not the model of health care I like, or seek out.  I want a doctor who can answer my questions, give me lots of info, and does not pressure me to do something I am uncomfortable with.  

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

There are some interesting graphs here too. Doubt you will like the source. There are graphs of Polio cases and incidence 1870 - 1998 and 1912-1970.

http://www.vaclib.org/sites/harpub/pol_all.htm

Very interesting. I'm bookmarking this one.

Thanks!

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

It is a conspiracy theory, you can take it as pejorative if you want, but that's what it is. It's a theory that there is a conspiracy to conceal cases of vaccine preventable diseases by calling them something else. It's not worth responding to further, because the nature of conspiracy theories is that all evidence to the contrary is part of the conspiracy.
There is a lab test that can distinguish between polio related afp and non polio afp, by the way. I learned that when I was doing some reading as a result of the thread about India.

By your definition, pointing out that Merck buried negative evidence and distorted the safety/efficacy trials of Vioxx would actually be a conspiracy theory.

Furthermore, your asserting that "the nature of the conspiracy theory is that all evidence to the contrary is part of the conspiracy" is just a nasty little logic game.  Whoever comes up with that definition first traps the opponent, because no matter what the truth is, there is no way out.  It's like going first in TicTacToe.  It would be like saying,  "You're a liar, and I can prove it because if you say you are not, you are lying and therefore proving my point."

Sorry, we're not buying that garbage here. 

As for the lab test for polio, that was my point--the test was not used after widespread introduction of the polio vaccine, because all cases in those who were vaccinated were assumed to be something other than polio, and all cases in those who were not vaccinated were assumed to be polio.

[Rrrrrachel]

Where's the evidence for that? If the vaccine don't work where are all those cases of polio now?

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Where's the evidence for that? If the vaccine don't work where are all those cases of polio now?

With that logic, it's a good thing we had a vaccine for the black plague in the middle ages.  Oh wait...