Want to give Dtap to 9 month old - Page 2

[Rrrrrachel]

The science does not support long term harm of the kind youre describing from aluminum or thimerosol in the amounts that are in vaccines.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

But vaccines HAVE been tested for safety and people who are injured AREN'T being ignored, there's vaers, and the vaccine compensation program, and datalink. Those are all ways to either allow people who think they've been vaccine injured to be heard and compensated or keep a close eye on possible adverse events that happen in larger than expected numbers.
 

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

The removed thimerosol because it wasn't worth fighting about. Because its more important to get as many people to vaccinate as possible than to be "right.". There is still no evidence t causes harm.
 

Funny, no one likes to talk about some of the original outcomes of study of thimerosal and vax by Datalink... *it's consiracy* involving 50+ pedis, drs, acip members, pharma reps, specialists in various feilds, and it wasn't removed from vax just to shut up a buncha crazy parents... there were congressional measures to remove mercury from otc drugs in the late 90s and then the EPA expressed concerns over ethyl mercury exposure in vax as compared to methyl guidelines, and yeah, they used methyl guidelines because very little is known about ethyl. 

Full transcript from Simpsonwood (based on datalink study) http://www.safeminds.org/government-affairs/foia/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

The Key points from Simpsonwood http://www.aapsonline.org/vaccines/cdcfdaexperts.htm

and copy of draft of original findings (with graphs of thimerosal exposure and neuro issues)

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/EXPERT%20PAPER%20-%20Thimerosal%20VSD%20study001%20-%20Internet%20File.pdf

[Blessed_Mom]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

And there are recalls because you're right, sometimes things DO come up that didn't come up in clinical trials, even though can go on for a decade and involve thousands. But look how it's handled when things do come up, they don't stage some massive cover up, they issue a recall!

The way I have seen 'recall' scenes played out is - first there is a massive effort made to either ignore or outright dispute growing rumblings of discord. I don't remember - anytime - them saying "Hmm.. even though right now a very minor percentage of people are showing damage maybe we should research this further".

When the numbers become overwhelming and impossible to ignore and their collars are tightened - they recall the vaccine. At that time they have no choice!

This is the behavior that has shaken the confidence of some of us folks. Because damage and deaths are just a statistic to them but take on a very monumental meaning to the ones actually afflicted.

Also  - take the 'flu vaccine. Miscarriages in pregnant women who have been administered the 'flu shot have jumped to alarming percentages and this is a new rumbling that is threatening to become real uncomfortable for all involved but in these stages do you see CDC issuing "Maybe there is some truth to these allegations" kind of statements?

Nope. Just denials and going right on administering the vaccine to pregnant women.

It WILL soon reach the stage when it can no longer be ignored and then there will be abrupt recalls and/or cease orders to inject pregnant women.Just a question of when...

...but how are they behaving now? Any credence to the amounting numbers? Any acknowledgement? 

When Squalene was present in the vaccines given to war vets and evidence was mounting that it was harmful were there equally reassuring messages from CDC that yes - numbers were increasingly getting uncomfortable and maybe they could acknowledge some truth to it?

Nope.. denial denial and more denial until the noose was tightened and suddenly.. yup stop using Squalene!

This wasn't llike the Thimerosal where you state "they took it out because they wanted to do the right thing rather than be right"

Does NOT apply!

[Rrrrrachel]

Study after study after study has shown there's no link between thimerosol and autism.

[Rrrrrachel]

None of this is helpful to the original poster so I'm walking away.

[Rrrrrachel]

I can't help myself, you realize those graphs in the simpsonwood thing you posted show no significant difference in the relative risk as exposure increases? Basically they show no correlation?

[slmommy]

Quote:

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significantabove one.”

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 76: “What I have done here, I am putting into the model instead of mercury, a number of antigens that the children received, and what do we get? Not surprisingly, we get very similar estimates as what we got for Thimerosal because every vaccine put in the equation has Thimerosal. So for speech and the other ones maybe it’s not so significant, but for the overall group it is also significant….Here we have the same thing, but instead of number of antigens, number of shots. Just the number of vaccinations given to a child, which is also for nearly all of them significantly related.”

Dr. Guess, pg. 77: "So this essentially is a 7% risk per antigen, an antigen is like in DPT you've got three antigens."

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "Correct."

Dr. Egan, pg. 77: "Could you do this calculation for aluminum?"

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "I did it for aluminum…Actually the results were almost identical to ethylmercury because the amount of aluminum goes along almost exactly with the mercury one."

Also, here is the CDC price list for vaccines licensed in US

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm

Notice the price diff between cdc price and private sector. And they are still making a profit off of cdc prices. Millions and millions and millions of doses. It's not nothing. 

[Rrrrrachel]

Again, never said its nothing, but it's a very small percentage of their overall sales.

[temaki]

Originally Posted by nukuspot 

I am in the same boat as you kind of.  I live in WA too.  We have not vaxxed so far.  My DH actually is very easy, he leaves the choice up to me.  SO far we have not vaxxed our 3 y/o at all.  If she was my only child (and yes, even if she was 9 months old like yours) I would leave her unvaxxed.  But we are due to have #2 in September right when the pertussis cases are going to peak (due to natural seasonal peaks in the disease).  So for that reason we are going to vax DD with DTaP next week, giving 3 doses 2 months apart, last dose in Mid September.  Ideal?  Not at all.  But I am mainly worried about the new baby as it is most terrible as far as outcomes for infants under 6 months.  Hope this helps.

Thank you everyone for the responses. DH and I have looked at countless websites, including the CDC and FDA websites. I have read Dr. Sears' book and Dr. Stephanie Cave's book. I am also a nurse and have taken care of infants with pertussis so I have seen it first hand.

DH says he will not consider starting vaxes for DD until she is at least 2 years old and that I should accept this as a compromise. I have asked him for some scientific evidence to back up this reason. I am not saying she should get caught up on all the vaxes according to the CDC schedule. I just think Dtap is one of the most important ones that should not be delayed for much longer, given our individual situation.

Nukuspot, I was telling DH that when the time comes for our second child, I would definitely want the older one to have Dtap by then, especially if she's in preschool. So I think you are doing the right thing.

[Blessed_Mom]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Again, never said its nothing, but it's a very small percentage of their overall sales.

US population = 311 million.

If each of the individuals receive atleast 6 vaccines in their lifetimes (DTaP, Polio, Hep B, Hep A, HiB, MMR) - bare minimum - not counting other vaxes and boosters and countless 'flu shots etc (this more than makes up for those individuals who don't vax)and each vaccine has 3 parts to it (minimum - right?) - then each individual receives 18 vaxes in their lifetime.

So total vaxes = 5.598 Billion. (311 million *18)

So - if they make even $1 for each vaccine in profit they make approx 5.6 billion dollars. Is that something to sneeze at???

AND that was the most conservative amounts I could use.

Firstly - they sell these vaxes to more than the USA population. So the first figure is way more than 311 million.

Secondly - each individual receives more than 6 vaccines in their lifetime... and some vaccines have more than 3 parts...

AND they surely make more than $1 as profit on each vaccine???

Whether the 5.6 billion dollars is a small percentage of their overall sales or not - it is a lot of money.....

Now if they make $5 as profit on each vax ? That makes their total profit = $25 billion dollars.

AND you can see I am not even going anywhere close to the disparate price differences slmommy posted.

Because if I calculate that in then the profits go into 100s of billions of dollars!

[slmommy]

temaki, I'm sorry, it really sucks to be at odds with a spouse on such serious issues... I want to say though, that I don't think you should do anything behind his back. 

Any chance of moving up the two years to 12 months, 18 months, etc if you space out the dtaps further? There are some threads here about nutritional/vitamin support before and after vax, I think Nukuspot is up on that?.... maybe that would also help give peace of mind to DH?

One other thing to keep in mind, if DH were interested in ever vaxing for tetanus, I believe pedi DT has trace of thimerosal and the 7yr+ T does have quite a bit of thimerosal. If I am remembering right....? I have kinda been following nukuspot on her research, and I think if you are really concerned about pertussis, and interested in tetanus, and worried about certain adjuvants, Daptacel is not a bad choice. I think Daptacel is the brand with the least aluminum and no trace thimerosal, so maybe that would also help DH. 

I think my previous post with link about SA and pertussis treatment is also worth a look if you haven't already. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

But vaccines HAVE been tested for safety and people who are injured AREN'T being ignored, there's vaers, and the vaccine compensation program, and datalink. 

This is just wrong--all of it.

Vaccines have not been adequately tested for safety.  Testing a new vaccine against not a placebo, but a different vaccine that in itself is responsible for some severe advere effects, and then saying, "not significantly more adverse events than placebo" is not adequate safety testing. Never having tested vaccines in the combinations and schedule used today is not adequate safety testing.  Never identifying subgroups at risk for adverse events is not adequate testing.  

And leaving the testing in the hands of the company that profits from the sale of those vaccines, and the same company that lied about safety/efficacy of other products, is not adequate testing.

Out of at least 7 severe adverse effects in my family alone, only one was ever reported by our doctor. It wasn't studied by anyone.  We were never contacted by anyone for further investigation.  In fact, our child was not accepted for an autism study because of this reaction, which was the opposite of the kind of data that study was looking for.

Vaers is voluntary, and therefore not even looked at by most doctors.

Even those who have won in vaccine court report that it was an absolute nightmare--extremely stressful, contentious, and they were made to feel like they were on trial and accused of a horrible crime.

[LitMom]

Originally Posted by temaki 

Thank you everyone for the responses. DH and I have looked at countless websites, including the CDC and FDA websites. I have read Dr. Sears' book and Dr. Stephanie Cave's book. I am also a nurse and have taken care of infants with pertussis so I have seen it first hand.

DH says he will not consider starting vaxes for DD until she is at least 2 years old and that I should accept this as a compromise. I have asked him for some scientific evidence to back up this reason. I am not saying she should get caught up on all the vaxes according to the CDC schedule. I just think Dtap is one of the most important ones that should not be delayed for much longer, given our individual situation.

Nukuspot, I was telling DH that when the time comes for our second child, I would definitely want the older one to have Dtap by then, especially if she's in preschool. So I think you are doing the right thing.

Why is he talking about autism when you're talking about DTaP though? That just seems really odd to me. I've never heard autism fears in connection with DTaP. 

I agree with you, by the way, sure, there's little exposure to many illnesses before a child is 2, but Pertussis is one that is a bigger problem when they're young. Does he think you're trying to open the door to other vaccines as well? If you reassure him that you'd like her to have 1?-2?-3? doses of this specific vaccine now and everything else you'll wait until age 2, will that help him? 

[Blessed_Mom]

Well...

This completely pro-vax site (almost like a CDC site) has this to write about the DTaP vaccine

"A  person with a recognized, possible, or potential neurologic condition should delay receiving DTaP or Tdap vaccine until the condition is evaluated, treated, and/or stabilized. Although DTaP vaccine does not cause neurological disorders, receiving the vaccine can cause an already-present underlying condition to show itself."

http://www.vaccineinformation.org/pertuss/qandavax.asp

So the OP's husband's fears about Autism/Autistic_behavior/other_neurological_disorders aren't entirely baseless.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by LitMom 

Why is he talking about autism when you're talking about DTaP though? That just seems really odd to me. I've never heard autism fears in connection with DTaP. 

Everyone always talks about MMR, but cases involving DTP and DTaP reactions filed and compensated in VICP dwarf MMR cases, on 3rd page here:

http://thenatureofreality.com/HRSA%20-%20National%20Vaccine%20Injury%20Compensation%20Program.pdf

Two example compensated VICP cases:

Quote:

#12 Lassiter (1996) “Respondent argues that Eric’s current behavioral manifestations and mental retardation ‘fit the pattern of autistic spectrum disorders with severe mental retardation.’ Dr. Spiro summarizes: “This child had a [DPT-related febrile] reaction following his DPT booster, but, it is clear that he currently fits into the autistic spectrum disorder with retardation.”

#14 Reitz (1998) “He would bang his head approximately six times and then return to normal. These episodes …[occur] almost daily. Derrick has the cognitive skills of a two or three year old. Although he speaks, he cannot do so in complete sentences. He has behavioral problems due to frustration.  He receives behavioral therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, and speech therapy. He was never the same baby after the third DPT vaccine…He lost milestones and development.”

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

[Rrrrrachel]

Your doctor doesn't have to report anything to vaers for you, you ca do tilt yourself. I agree it's not complete, though, and it also contains a lot of reports that aren't really related to vaccines. That's why I think datalink is great, because it looks for things like increased doctors visits after a vaccine as a red flag that something is going on in large numbers.

Vaccines are all tested in conjunction with the other vaccines in the schedule. So yes, our current schedule and combinations are safety tested. Originally vaccines (like polio) were tested against true placebos. I think that concern is somewhat valid, but it's also one that will never be answered. Vaccines will never be tested against true placebos because there's not an irb in the country that would approve it when the preponderance of evidence says kids are at more risk unvaccinated than vaccinated.

No one denies that some children have very serious adverse reactions to vaccines, or even that they end up disabled for the rest of their lives. Some kids die from pertussis, too.

I hope they do more to identify at risk groups, too. I think that's one of the CDCS top five research priorities for vaccines right now, but I can't remember for sure. Vaccine safety research is still going on, it hasn't stopped and I doubt it ever will.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

 Vaccines will never be tested against true placebos because there's not an irb in the country that would approve it when the preponderance of evidence says kids are at more risk unvaccinated than vaccinated.

Gardasil was tested against true placebo... kind of....

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm111263.pdf

5088 Gardasil

3470 Control

320 Saline Placebo

Some of the trial results are reported with the control and placebo results combined together. Why true placebo group so small? What a big missed opportunity to study adjuvant safety, (for adults anyway, that was the control). 

Edited by slmommy - 5/5/12 at 6:32am

[Rrrrrachel]

Sorry, I meant vaccines currently on the schedule will never be not given to people in a study. So a new dtap (or hexavalent dtap) would be tested against old dtap, they wouldn't just not vaccinate the control group. New vaccines are a different story, although those kids would still be vaccinated with the rest of the schedule, presumably. They didn't test hpv in unvaccinated kids, they tested it in kids that had already had all te other vaccines (as thy should, because it helps identify interactions.)

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Sorry, I meant vaccines currently on the schedule will never be not given to people in a study. So a new dtap (or hexavalent dtap) would be tested against old dtap, they wouldn't just not vaccinate the control group. New vaccines are a different story, although those kids would still be vaccinated with the rest of the schedule, presumably. They didn't test hpv in unvaccinated kids, they tested it in kids that had already had all te other vaccines (as thy should, because it helps identify interactions.)

But the vaccine manufacturers have a proven history (involving millions of dollars in fines) of supressing data that shows adverse reactions to all lkinds of drugs, including vaccines.

Testing a new vaccine against a "control" group of kids who have already received 30-50 vaccines, many of which have thousands of reports of long-term and late-onset adverse effects such as autoimmune disorders, is a great way to continue to miss reactions and interactions.

Merck says that Gardasil is effective in women 24-45.  Have you had your Gardasil, Rrrrachel?  If it was more than 4 years ago, have you had your booster, since immunity wanes at 4-6 years? 

[Rrrrrachel]

No, because I was already married when gardasil came out. My doctor has never recommended it for me.

Just to clarify, you're accusing not just the drug companies but the FDA and CDC of a cover up.