That doesn't change the fact that ingested methyl mercury is more of a threat than injected ethyl mercury, though both are avoidable.
- topicSelective Vaccinationtagged by System, 5/3/12
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Want to give Dtap to 9 month old - Page 4post #62 of 845/5/12 at 1:11pmQuote:Originally Posted by Taximom5
That's nothing new, however, the FDA and CDC have yet to approve this expansion.post #63 of 845/5/12 at 1:16pmQuote:
"A newly-released primate studypublished in Environmental Health Perspectives (EHP), a NIEHS publication, is getting fluffy reviews today. The NIH-funded study, conducted by Dr. ThomasBurbacher, a University of Washington researcher, found that Thimerosal, best known for its use as an ethylmercury-based preservative in infant vaccines and pregnancy shots, is actually more toxic to the brain than methylmercury."post #64 of 845/5/12 at 1:30pmQuote:
Again - context.
Ingested Methyl Mercury happens much later in a person's life and injected Ethyl Mercury used to happen in a day-old infant - so if you take body weight to metal ratio in consideration I am not sure your above statement holds true.
Just a reminder that we are still talking dangerous effects of Thimerosal even though they have taken it out of vaccines because Rrrrachel stated that there never has been established a correlation between Thimerosal and neurological disruption.And this discussion is a continuation of that...
ETA: Also consider that the percentage of people who eat Tuna sandwiches is much less compared to how many individuals get vaccinated. And people typically start eating tuna sandwiches around or after age 3 (and that is not a huge percent of the population either) when most of the neurological connections in the brain have already been established.
But yes - both should be avoided!
Edited by Blessed_Mom - 5/5/12 at 1:41pmpost #65 of 845/5/12 at 1:52pm
Yes - we can go back and forth on this and never meet on some common ground but this is what I believe:
I believe that those parents who claim that their healthy and 'normal' babies suddenly started showing Autistic/neuro_Atypical symptoms after vaxes are not lying!
I also believe that the percentage of such extreme cases is rather small . Most reactions are rather local and go away. Some of the reactions develop much later in life.
I believe that overloading of vaccines is not the way to go as it increases the risk of sudden shock.
I also understand that even if the extreme reaction percentage may be small ...if my baby would be the 0.0000000001% affected I WOULD hate it - hence I understand the non-vaxers. I also know that for some - seeing others grow up Autistic (other children, siblings, parents etc.) affects them deeply and cuts too close to the heart - hence the rabid stance. They just do NOT want to risk it.
I also believe that vaxes have successfully eradicated quite a few dangerous diseases and curbed others to a great extent hence we do selectively vax. And as such in theory I am all for vaxing!
I wish the big Pharma companies could take out Mercury and Aluminium as adjuvants and other harmful preservatives and do a more extensive research to make this invaluable tool much safer than it is.
Ipost #66 of 845/5/12 at 1:55pmQuote:Originally Posted by Taximom5
"A newly-released primate studypublished in Environmental Health Perspectives (EHP), a NIEHS publication, is getting fluffy reviews today. The NIH-funded study, conducted by Dr. ThomasBurbacher, a University of Washington researcher, found that Thimerosal, best known for its use as an ethylmercury-based preservative in infant vaccines and pregnancy shots, is actually more toxic to the brain than methylmercury."post #67 of 845/5/12 at 2:52pmQuote:Originally Posted by Jugs
It does not specify whether the children in the study were able to excrete all of the mercury.
"Second, our measurements are unable to determine the fate of the mercury after it leaves the blood, because our sampling was limited to blood, urine, and stool, and we did not collect 24-hour samples; therefore the data do not allow any conclusions about the proportion of administered ethyl mercury that is ultimately excreted in stools or the time course of that excretion, only that some excretion seems to occur by the gastrointestinal route and that the kidneys do not seem to play an important role. "post #68 of 845/5/12 at 2:56pmQuote:There is a need to interpret neurotoxic studies to help deal with uncertainties surrounding pregnant mothers, newborns and young children who must receive repeated doses of Thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs). This review integrates information derived from emerging experimental studies (in vitro and in vivo) of low-dose Thimerosal (sodium ethyl mercury thiosalicylate). Major databases (PubMed and Web-of-science) were searched for in vitro and in vivo experimental studies that addressed the effects of low-dose Thimerosal (or ethylmercury) on neural tissues and animal behaviour. Information extracted from studies indicates that: (a) activity of low doses of Thimerosal against isolated human and animal brain cells was found in all studies and is consistent with Hg neurotoxicity; (b) the neurotoxic effect of ethylmercury has not been studied with co-occurring adjuvant-Al in TCVs; (c) animal studies have shown that exposure to Thimerosal-Hg can lead to accumulation of inorganic Hg in brain, and that (d) doses relevant to TCV exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development. Thimerosal at concentrations relevant for infants' exposure (in vaccines) is toxic to cultured human-brain cells and to laboratory animals. The persisting use of TCV (in developing countries) is counterintuitive to global efforts to lower Hg exposure and to ban Hg in medical products; its continued use in TCV requires evaluation of a sufficiently nontoxic level of ethylmercury compatible with repeated exposure (co-occurring with adjuvant-Al) during early life.
Edited by slmommy - 5/5/12 at 3:42pmpost #69 of 845/5/12 at 3:00pm
also this one says that pretty much ethyl/methyl comparisons are useless.Quote:Taken together, our data demonstrated that the toxicokinetics of [thimerosal] is completely different from that of [methylmercury]. Thus, [methylmercury] is not an appropriate reference for assessing the risk from exposure to [thimerosal]-derived Hg. It also adds new data for further studies in the evaluation of [thimerosal] toxicity.post #70 of 845/5/12 at 3:05pmQuote:Information extracted from the studies done in the USA, the UK, and Italy is important in understanding the complex interplay of variables but insufficient to establish non-toxicity for infants and young children still receiving TCV: a) there is ambiguity in some studies reporting neurodevelopment outcomes that seem to depend on confounding variables; b) the risk of neurotoxicity due to low doses of thimerosal is plausible at least for susceptible infants; c) there is a need to address these issues in less developed countries still using TCV in pregnant mothers, newborns, and young children.
All of these I posted were published 2010+.
I could go on, but heres a list for anyone interested:post #71 of 845/5/12 at 3:31pm
Someone stated earlier that they hadn't heard of DTP associated with asd.... I found this interesting:
"The contribution of thimerosal from childhood vaccines (>50% effect) was greater than MMR vaccine on the prevalence of autism observed in this study."
(old DTP had thimerosal, new DTaPs have either none or trace amounts, now it's aluminum).post #72 of 845/5/12 at 3:55pmQuote:Originally Posted by Taximom5
"A newly-released primate studypublished in Environmental Health Perspectives (EHP), a NIEHS publication, is getting fluffy reviews today. The NIH-funded study, conducted by Dr. ThomasBurbacher, a University of Washington researcher, found that Thimerosal, best known for its use as an ethylmercury-based preservative in infant vaccines and pregnancy shots, is actually more toxic to the brain than methylmercury."
Very interesting. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079072Quote:Monkeys were exposed to MeHg (via oral gavage) or vaccines containing thimerosal (via intramuscular injection) at birth and 1, 2, and 3 weeks of age....A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%).
Also interesting female rats seem to excrete mercury better than male rats.post #73 of 845/5/12 at 3:57pm
I see that there are 2 separate conversations going on in this thread, so I would like to address this reply to the OP and slmommy since they were both interested in my research. I have been extensively researching vaccine options for tetanus and pertussis for the last month.
So for tetanus protection choices we have either the ped DT or the DTaP. I just wanted to quickly let you know that I printed out both the Daptacel and the pediatric DT information sheets from the FDA webpage. Comparing them I found this: DT contains bovine extract and trace thimerasol (.3) It also has formaldehyde (less than .02%) It has "not more than .17mg aluminum. It has less diptheria than DTaP (6.7 vs 15 lf) and equal tetanus (5 lf) No glutareldahyde or 2-phenoloxyethanol (which the DTaP has).The Daptacel has more aluminum than the DT (.33 vs .17mg) but no thimerasol or bovine extract. It also has "less than 5mcg residual formaldehyde" which since it is in different measurements than the DT which says "less than .02%" I don't know how to compare that. Maybe you do. It has glutareldahyde and 2-phenoloxyethanol. Also, the DT lists "death" as a reported "temporal association" with the DT portion of the vaccine. Strangely the Daptacel does not list "death". in the adverse effects pages. The Daptacel has a much longer list of other severe side effects than the DT though. Finally, interestingly enough, the DT says that 100% of test subjects had a full immune response after 2 doses, but they recommend the series to be 3 doses because they didn't know how much of the immunity after the first 2 doses was from the mother....That makes little sense to me other than a CYA thing. So really I'd love to do 2 doses of DT then check titers...But I am truly stuck on the thimerasol issue. I am so strongly wary of mercury (I had blood levels near toxic levels 4 years before TTC...My father was a dentist and I was around amalgam my whole childhood) that for that alone, albeit such a small amount, I think I am deciding to go with Daptacel. I'm still not totally at peace with it. But I think it's the best decision I have at this point for the tetanus aspect. I am NOT happy with the TIG shot, I would really hate to have to go to the hospital and have a nurse in the ER give her the TIG if she did get a wound in preschool outside. It is a blood product with risks of hepatitis and also other strange blood borne disease. Also at the same time they always give the first dose DTaP. I would not like to be in the situation where I had to refuse ER care. It can cause major issues with insurance and if my child is in the ER I am not in the mood for a fight. I've had the "vaccine discussion" all 3 trips to the ER we've taken so far with the doctors there, and none of them were for anything like a VPD! (Head trauma, stitches for a wound gotten inside which bled alot, no tetanus risk, eye injury). So actually going in to the ER and having to deal with pushy docs at the time trying to give DTaP at the same time as TIG and not knowing if they were going to do Daptacel (I would flat out refuse either of the other two DTaP brands) would be too much for me to deal with. I just assume at some point my very accident prone DD is going to have some sort of injury while playing outside at school in her life...And it would be peace of mind to know she had 3 doses of a tetanus vaccine. 3 doses is considered a primary series for DTaP/tetanus protection.
For pertussis again, I would go with Daptacel vs either of the other choices. Tripedia I think is no longer used (it contained trace Hg) so Daptacel vs Infantrix the clear winner in my mind is Daptacel since Infantrix has double the amount of aluminum. Our CDC says 4 doses is a primary series for children whose last dose would be at age 4 for pertussis protection from DTaP, 5 for younger children like yours. But in Sweden using the same vaccine (Daptacel) 3 doses is considered a primary series. So in this case I will treat my child as Swedish and call the 3 doses primary for her. Even if I chose to do the 4th dose the new baby would be 6 months old at that time, so vaxxing the older toddler to protect the baby would not be as important at that time since the baby would be beyond the age of worst case scenario if she got pertussis. I talked to my very conventional Ped about this and she follows my reasoning and says she thinks if I only want to do 3 doses of DTaP it should be adequate for pertussis and completely protective for tetanus. So that's my plan. 3 doses of DTaP, 2 months apart. Now if I had really looked into this earlier I probably would have started a little earlier (maybe 2 1/2?) So she could have a little more spacing between doses. I'd like 3-4 months but I don't have that time now since the new baby and preschool are coming in early Sept. I do think 2 months should be enough between doses to see if she has any side effects. The plan is that if she has ANY side effect (other than mild site tenderness) from any of the first 2 doses we will not continue with the series since it is her body telling me it cannot handle it, and I know the side effects can get worse with each subsequent dose.
In the end, after all my research, loss of sleep, and stress about this subject, I think getting both these 2 VPDs covered in the same vaccine makes me much more likely to feel OK with doing this. I am NOT planning to do any other vaccines at this point. I would consider MMR if and only if there was a significant outbreak in my community, or we travel to a place where they are common (and not Europe, we actually already traveled to Europe when my DD was 15 months and unvaxxed. I didn't feel there was much risk no matter what the news says when I actually looked at the Measles numbers over there,) Before she is in her teens I would consider Hep B but I would talk with her and let her make her own decision on that.
I hope this is helpful to you. If you have any more questions, OP, please ask! Where are you in WA by the way? I am in Olympia. Our ped says she is seeing many more cases of pertussis each week. The epicenter seems to be Skagit county from the DOH bulletins I get. But 12 counties (most in far Eastern WA) have had no cases to date. So it depends where you are located too, what your individual risk might be for your LO to get it.post #74 of 845/5/12 at 4:18pmI am so strongly wary of mercury (I had blood levels near toxic levels 4 years before TTC...My father was a dentist and I was around amalgam my whole childhood)
Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: protection with glutathione precursors.Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular GSH in both cell lines. Pretreatment with 100 microM glutathione ethyl ester or N-acetylcysteine (NAC), but not methionine, resulted in a significant increase in intracellular GSH in both cell types. Further, pretreatment of the cells with glutathione ethyl ester or NAC prevented cytotoxicity with exposure to 15 microM Thimerosal.
I don't know much about this, but it caught my eye, I have read about NAC other places and its ability to help excrete metals.post #75 of 845/5/12 at 5:20pmpost #76 of 845/5/12 at 8:16pm
slmommy---My mercury toxicity is not currently a big issue. I worked to gently detox for the 4 years before I tried to TTC. I don't do any detox currently because I've been either breastfeeding or pregnant for the last 4 years. But I got my levels down well enough before trying to get pregnant the first time. However I am sure my children must have absorbed a bit through me, since I couldn't get rid of it all, so I am extra cautious about mercury.
Blessed_Mom--Yes, King does have cases. You'd expect it with Seattle and all the big metro area! Lots more people up there. You can look at the DOH website, they weekly update the pertussis map that shows how many cases are reported.post #77 of 845/6/12 at 5:51am
I was just wondering if NAC would be a possible supplement for a child pre and post vax. That study certainly suggests it for thimerosal containing vaccines, I was wondering if it would be appropriate for aluminum and children? I don't really know much about it at all, if I had a dr who was more knowledgable in that area, I would ask!post #78 of 845/6/12 at 10:10ampost #79 of 845/6/12 at 10:15am
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