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Don't know where else to post this; I want to have a baby for my friend - Page 3

post #41 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessTraveledBy View Post

 

Yes, but all these hurts you mention would in this case go on top of the hurt of your parents having decided to give you away.

How would you have any idea whether that was a factual statement?  It may be in your case, or some cases, but absolutely not in all cases.  In some situations, I have no doubt that giving a child up for adoption is the most tremendous act of love imaginable.

 

And, no, I am not adopted and have never given a child up for adoption.

post #42 of 107

see link above
 

post #43 of 107
Quote:

Unpack that statement. Why would "your parents" be the people who donated your DNA, rather than the people who raised you? Why would anybody (kid or parent) frame the issue of origins in that way?  

 

I consider myself to have two sets of parents. Both sets contributed to who I am. I choose not to diminish or devalue the people who created me. They gave me my physical appearance, intellectual capacity, certain traits, interests, and talents.

 

Why would anyone frame the issue of origins in that way? Well, because I didn't originate at the adoption agency. My origins predate my adoptive family.

post #44 of 107
Thread Starter 

Hypothetical situations:

 

What if I donate my eggs to my friend, they fertilize them with his semen, and a different woman carries the baby to term.  Does that mean it's still my baby?  It was my egg.

 

Does the inclusion of his semen make it acceptable?  If so, why?  If they get a donated egg from a different woman, again use his semen, and then I act as a surrogate, that means I'm still not technically carrying my friend's child, I'm carrying the child her husband had with another woman.

 

If he were infertile as well they would have to find donor eggs and semen.  What if the donors they chose were myself and The Hubby from a book of donors?  Would that mean the resultant child is less theirs because it wouldn't have any genetic connection with them?

 

If the above are acceptable, and both parties agree to having both donated eggs and semen, why not skip a step and just impregnate me the usual way rather than doing it medically?

post #45 of 107

I consider myself to have two sets of parents. Both sets contributed to who I am.

 

 

Makes sense to me. But that's very different from the "my real parents gave me away, I am primally wounded" mentality. Some people ARE traumatized by their adoptions. I'm not trying to diminish that. But to tell a person who is contemplating an adoption plan that such a plan is inherently harmful to her child is dishonest IMO. Harm is one possible outcome on a wide spectrum of possible outcomes - and in this case and many others, the alternative to that risk of harm is non-existence.

 

Again, I'm not saying that the OP should rush out and do this. I'm just saying that it's not unethical to conceive a child that you plan to place with another set of parents. 

post #46 of 107

OP, I think all of those options in any combination are acceptable from a moral standpoint. 

 

For me, the additional risk of taking the hormones used to facilitate IVF would be a big push in the direction of doing it the natural way. I was thinking about it more last night - if it came right down to it, if it was my sister or best friend, I think I'd strive to overcome the ick factor and use her husband's semen. I'm not sure if I could, but I think I would at least explore the issue with a counselor. 

post #47 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

OP, I think all of those options in any combination are acceptable from a moral standpoint. 

 

For me, the additional risk of taking the hormones used to facilitate IVF would be a big push in the direction of doing it the natural way. I was thinking about it more last night - if it came right down to it, if it was my sister or best friend, I think I'd strive to overcome the ick factor and use her husband's semen. I'm not sure if I could, but I think I would at least explore the issue with a counselor. 

 

I agree with this. IVF really freaks me out a lot....but maybe I could give my friend my egg mixed with her husbands sperm! Maybe that wouldn't be as bad feeling as my egg and my DHs sperm.

 

My best friends husbands semen in me would be....well, ahem, it would be a challenge to overcome....but giving away the biological child of my husband, the biological sibling of my children....I don't trust/love/respect/want to help anyone on this planet enough to hand over my own child for them to have, just, you know, as a gift. Maybe there was a time in my life before kids, when I was broke and living in a "college-y" apartment and working a shitty job and still figuring myself out that, had I fallen pregnant, that choice would have made sense to me.

But now? When I have children? When I'm living in the glorious glow of my golden days..when my kids are my world and my husband is young and handsome and everything is going well for us?? No, I couldn't give up a child now. That maternal soul-bond is too deep.

I'm just worried OP because I feel like the bond you feel with your child IS unavoidable. I think that as strong as your desire to help your friend is now, there is NO desire, NO bond, NO feeling as intense, deep and unavoidable as the feeling/bond/desire a mother feels for the baby kicking in her tummy. I'm worried you would get half way through the pregnancy and just start crumbling inside, realizing what you'd done.

 

 

 

To answer your questions:

If your friend and her DH go to a sperm bank and out of all the anonymous donations pick your husbands sperm and then they go to an egg donation clinic and out of all the eggs they unknowingly pick yours and then they mix those together and you carry the embryo to term for them and deliver a baby and hand it over.....it would be a completely different scenario. Not even close.

 

In that scenario, the knowledge that this child was actually 100% biologically yours/your DHs would be hidden from your heart. I think it would impact you....but not in any way as heavily as knowingly handing over your own baby.

 

You climbing into bed with your husband, making love to him and creating a child out of that loving and sacred act is totally different. In your mind you say "I made my friend a baby" - in your heart you say "My husbands seed and my own have brought into being the miracle of a new life" - your head can rationalize all day long....the whole time, your heart is forming a bond. You can't stop it. It is the way it is meant to be. You can't hide the knowledge of the true nature of the situation from your heart.

 

In your mind, when you are giving over the baby created in the first scenario...your heart doesn't have much to say - because it doesn't know the baby is yours. Your heart would be heavy, but it would say "I'm sad not to keep this baby I grew, it's a lot to go through to walk away from the hospital with no baby in my arms, but this baby was only grown in me, not made BY me and it belongs to my dear friend" - you have a hard battle to fight hormonally, but you get through it. In your mind, you can make yourself feel better: "Look at her, loving that baby! Look at my friend, finally a mother again just as she wanted! Look at the incredible gift I gave her!"

But in your mind, when you are giving over the baby created in the second scenario, out of an act of love between you and your DH....your heart has a lot to say and your mind CANNOT throw out any rationalization which can come CLOSE to countering the One True Fact of the situation that your heart will not let go of: It is your baby.

This baby will have your hair, your husbands eyes and will smell like all the rest of your babies did. This baby will know your scent and will recognize you and you will know that. This baby will be the product of a sacred love act between you and your husband and you will give her over anyway, because you will tell yourself "I am just being hormonal, of course I'm upset, that's no reason to deny my friend what I promised her" - and then you will go home and I don't know if it will be hours, days, weeks, months or years later...but you will fall apart over this.

 

How well will you recover? I think that depends on who you are. Maybe you are the "type" who will just bounce back from this. Maybe a little counseling will help you resolve your feelings and you be fine after a year. Maybe it will tear you apart...maybe it will rip you up and change you and send you down a completely different road in life. Maybe you will become depressed. Maybe you will resent your DH. Maybe your marriage will fall apart and you will regret ever having done this thing. Maybe you will go to counseling, feel completely healed a year down the line...go about your business as usual for two, five ten+ years...and then one day will be hit out of nowhere with true and deep grief you didn't know was still living in you. You never know. You just, can't know...


You don't know who you are going to be in the aftermath. I would tend to think that a person who is deeply kind and sweet enough to consider such an amazing act of love...is a deep enough well of caring and soul-goodness that she is going to be very greatly effected by trying to sever the maternal bond in this way and watch her friend raise her baby as her own.

 

I'm just throwing some of this out there. Maybe it would be all roses. But it could potentially be a really, really fucking bad thing that happened in your life. Is it worth it, to take that gamble? It is inviting the possibility for the kind of disaster that could be really hard to come back from and I don't know if I would think it was worth it to embark on such a road. We're not talking giving her your car or handing over half of your life savings to save her from foreclosure or something like that. We're talking about your flesh and blood child. That kind of hurt and trauma that could bring COULD change you and your life forever. Is it worth the risk? Is it worth possibly putting great strain on your marriage, on your existing children?

Your friend is so lucky to have a buddy like you. You couldn't ask for a better bosom buddy. She is incredibly unlucky to have experienced such a terrible, terrible loss during her first birth. But you have to see that she is walking her path...these experiences, they are hers. I know it feels like you are blessed with so much while she has lost so much...and it's tempting to want to take from your own heaping plate to give a bit of "what you can spare" to her. But you don't know what is in store for you on your path and you don't know what lies ahead for her on her path. I think wanting to help her is great....but I also think that you need to pay attention to your own life and protect yourself from the kind of path which could lie on the other side of making a decision like this.

If you making a child and giving it up for her, to try and fix HER bumpy path, leads you down a road that turns very dark and very troubled....who is going to swoop in and save YOU? And what is that person going to be able to swoop in and give you, which will come close to filling the kind of hole that could be left by giving up the sweet baby of your own loin? The little girl who grows up looking like a dead-ringer for your mother...or the little boy, who is your son, who grows up looking just like your DH? Just think so hard about that.

post #48 of 107

Do you have any idea how your friend would respond to this type of an overture?  From my perspective - I would not be at all receptive to a friend offering to give me one of her children.  I know your intention comes from a place of compassion for your friend.  But I would feel a bit offended that a friend with no fertility problems just offers to "fix" my situation by giving me a child. 

post #49 of 107

I'm just worried OP because I feel like the bond you feel with your child IS unavoidable. I think that as strong as your desire to help your friend is now, there is NO desire, NO bond, NO feeling as intense, deep and unavoidable as the feeling/bond/desire a mother feels for the baby kicking in her tummy. I'm worried you would get half way through the pregnancy and just start crumbling inside, realizing what you'd done.

 

I worry about that, too, but my worry is less attached to where the baby's DNA comes from. If OP carries the baby, she will bond with the baby. S/he will smell "right" and recognize her voice and all that other stuff. It's not a hypothesis than can be reeasonably tested, since virtually all women who carry babies also put their DNA into the making of the baby and conceive the baby through sex with a man they have an emotional connection to, but... the people I know IRL who have deviated from that path have done better the more prepared and the less coerced they were. Friend who was too poor to raise a child placing the baby she'd accidentally conceived with a lover after months of indecision? Emotional firestorm. Friend who decided to be a surrogate for a relative? Postpartum was not the sunniest period of her life, but sooooo much better than the friend who felt constrained to place. She did not want to raise a baby at that time, and think of the baby as hers (and I think it was her egg, I never asked). The important part was that she did the emotional work upfront and was very sure of her choice before she got pregnant. 

post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by emma00 View Post

Do you have any idea how your friend would respond to this type of an overture?  From my perspective - I would not be at all receptive to a friend offering to give me one of her children.  I know your intention comes from a place of compassion for your friend.  But I would feel a bit offended that a friend with no fertility problems just offers to "fix" my situation by giving me a child. 

I agree with this. We have struggled unsuccessfully to conceive a second child, and are considering adoption but can't afford it right now. I can't pretend to know what your friend is going through, but from my perspective as someone dealing with some similar surface issues, I would not ever ever accept an offer of someone else's child. I wouldn't be offended, I would think it's an incredibly kind & loving gesture, but I would never in a million years accept the offer (except perhaps in a situation where the child was already conceived and the couple genuinely could not keep him/her themselves).

So I guess I'm saying, talk to your friend & feel her out. I wouldn't outright make an offer at this point, but talk in hypotheticals perhaps... and find out whether it's even something you need to spend your time seriously considering & researching.

And if she is intrigued by the idea... I'd encourage you to proceed with caution. I can see a lot of potential issues with this arrangement, and as well-meaning as your intentions are, there are a lot of people's feelings to consider and a lot of potential ramifications no matter how this turns out.
post #51 of 107

I'm not adopted nor have I placed a child for adoption, and though I have a child of my own, I'm not sure my feelings for her prior to and immediately after her birth rose above the level of "Wow, this is a nifty little potential->human here". And if I'd spent nine months knowing that the nifty little potential->human I was carrying was intended for someone else, I might have been able to make that emotional separation. I think some people may be able to make that separation with less trauma than others, and while I wouldn't give up my child for any amount of love or money, I can see myself potentially feeling differently in a scenario where I'd chosen to carry for someone else and where I felt I was done having children of my own to raise.

 

The weirdest part of your scenario for me would be *trying to conceive* a child for someone else. "Okay, let's go! We gotta make a baby for Dan and Rosie." Erk.


That said, I don't think this scenario is fair to the potential child. I'm not anti-adoption; I think it can sometimes be the best solution. But I think it's probably in a child's best interests to be raised by their biological parent(s), unless there's some good reason that they shouldn't be. Assuming she (or he) knows the story of her origins, that child would always wonder why her biological parents decided to give her to someone else; if you're involved in her life, she'll always wonder if it would have been different being raised by you and having your children as her siblings, and if you're not involved, she'll wonder why that as well. (And you'll probably wonder all these things too if you are involved.) It just seems like a lot of weird to put on a child and that amount of weird could easily be completely avoided. Think what it would be like to grow up knowing that your parents' BFFs were actually your biological parents who gave you to your adoptive parents to raise. Weird. Just weird.

post #52 of 107

I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation.  Ugh.  No, it is not.  A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth.  The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend.  That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.

post #53 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post

I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation.  Ugh.  No, it is not.  A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth.  The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend.  That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.

The problem Is that SHE doesnt seem to see that. We do. We 're trying to explain that its fairly impossible for most people to simply be a vessel or to imagine that she can make this decison f
prior to birth. She is entering conception in this situation as if its surrogacy with legal proceedings prior to birth and calling it adoption
post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post

I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation.  Ugh.  No, it is not.  A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth.  The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend.  That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.


It's definitely not an ironclad obligation, but it would be best before she decides to do it (if she does decide so) for her to have a pretty good idea of what she is capable of and whether she really can go through with it. It's not something you want to enter into lightly. I think that may be what people are responding to.

post #55 of 107

Lashlock and erigeron, I am not new to the triad or this forum (or this debate).  I do feel it's important, though, to call attention to the fact that relinquishing your biological child is not the same thing as surrogacy, surrogacy also is not legally protected in *most* areas of the the US, and the final decision for anything but a TPR adoption rests with the birthparent *as it should*.  Talking about a baby as a gift, or presuming that once you tell a couple that you'll "give" your baby to them means you are locked into that decision is just...gross to me.  The "gift" language of adoption has always disgusted me, though I realize that most people who use it "mean well."

 

I felt that drawing attention to the fact that no birthmother (unless her children are taken by the state) gives up ANY legal right until she signs those papers (and may have some redress available even so if they were signed under duress) was important given the turn that this conversation has been taking.

 

I also have a huge issue with the presumption that all worthy/sane/good mothers will feel some huge mystical connection with their baby in utereo, including strong bonding.  While I think that it's a likely occurrance for a majority of people, I do not think that it happens for everyone (even people who keep their kids) and it certainly didn't make me an unfit mother (IMO) that I did not find pregnancy "sacred" and didn't have an insta-bond with any of my kids until they were actually, you know, in my arms.  I love my kids, they love me, we are fine.  I don't wish to denigrate people who have a different experience, but it would be nice if they extended the same courtesy to others.  I do get the important of biology, as an adoptee, I was kind of shocked at how important that has been to me as a mom.  (I grew up in a really fucked up adoptive home, which meant that I had no desire to meet other potentially fucked up people who happened to be related to me, "God gave" me all the parents I could handle with the ones that I was "given" to, TYVM--that is, until I had biological children and had a rather surprising connection experience with that.)

 

I just did not feel I could remain silent with people talking about this like it's an unavoidable conclusion if you get knocked up EVEN WITH the intent to relinquish.  I'm allowed to state my discomfort.  And god knows, in all the conversations/fights I've seen about surrogacy and purposeful adoption in my time (there have been many), that tidbit seems to get lost in the shuffle.  A lot.

 

To be clear (and blunt, sorry OP), I think the scenario that the OP has presented (as presented) is naive and a terrible idea.  I think it COULD be tweaked perhaps to make something work, but if someone is going down this road because adoption is "too expensive" or "too complicated" and different options are icky then that tells me that more thought needs to go into it.  Adoption is complicated even if you think you want to do it.  I can only imagine (from my limited experience of knowing a couple of people who have been gestational surrogates and 2 families that have used surrogates--hardly a representative sample) that surrogacy also has its complexities.

 

ETA:  Sorry, lashlock, wow that was an embarrassing misspelling of your name.  Corrected.


Edited by Tigerchild - 5/13/12 at 8:58pm
post #56 of 107

TC i totally agree with your statement about not everyone viewing birth as sacred, mystical, etc...it actually took me until a few days or more after my son was born to have those intense feelings for him, i mean he was a nice baby and all but i didnt even feel like he was "mine" (and i had an intervention free homebirth it wasnt like i was zonked out on meds birthing him or something.)

 

I think we can debate this til the cows come home but i think there may be a good chance that the OPs friend wont even really want to do this. I know for me if i were in that situation on the one hand yeah i'd feel "oh a baby, i'll take it!" but if i really thought about it, im not sure i could raise the birthchild of my close friends if i saw them all the time. Im not sure i would feel comfortable with that. I might always wonder if they are judging me, even if they assume me they are not, and what if we disagreed about something major? What if we USED to agree about something, like method of schooling, then i changed my mind? Of course *I* would be The Mom, but it would just be complicated. And there is the VERY real potential for losing the friendship over it. I might not want to be reminded every time i saw you that you "gifted" me with a child that i could not have on my own. ....of course the friend might not feel any of that at all.
 

post #57 of 107

If your friends are really OK with adoption and aren't adamant about having a child genetically related to one or both of them then perhaps a better solution is to help them fundraise to adopt a child in a more traditional manner? The sacrifices you're willing to make by being a surrogate are significant and fundraising would honestly be easier emotionally, physically, and even ethically. Moreover, it's likely that by helping them pay for an adoption you'd also be helping a child who really needs it.

post #58 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

IMoreover, it's likely that by helping them pay for an adoption you'd also be helping a child who really needs it.

I wanted to reply to this. Do you advocate to everyone that they need to adopt before having biological children because there are children that do need homes already? Or is that specially reserved for people that are not able to have the own children and want to adopt or participate in surrogacy?

To everyone else, there is a good chance that she will not want go accept if I offer. But I wanted to offer and I wanted to gather as much information and advice as I could before offering. I'm like that.
post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

IMoreover, it's likely that by helping them pay for an adoption you'd also be helping a child who really needs it.

I wanted to reply to this. Do you advocate to everyone that they need to adopt before having biological children because there are children that do need homes already? Or is that specially reserved for people that are not able to have the own children and want to adopt or participate in surrogacy?

To everyone else, there is a good chance that she will not want go accept if I offer. But I wanted to offer and I wanted to gather as much information and advice as I could before offering. I'm like that.

 

Not everyone who adopts cannot get pregnant. Some families are comprised of both adoptive and biological children (mine included). Adopting from a very close friend has huge potential to strain the relationship, and in this case it seems as though you would be giving this couple the gift of a child. It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else. I'm not anti-adoption, I'm not anti-surrogacy, I just don't understand why you would want to give a child to someone else. Why not help and support them in some other way?

post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

 Do you advocate to everyone that they need to adopt before having biological children because there are children that do need homes already? Or is that specially reserved for people that are not able to have the own children and want to adopt or participate in surrogacy?

 

If adoption comes up as an option, then YES absolutely I will advocate for needy children. And yes, I will encourage adoption of existing children over fertiliity treatments or surrogacy unless the person I'm speaking with is obviously not interested or offended. I don't advocate adoption for everyone, however, because I know it's not a realistic option for most people. Either they can't or won't love a child who isn't biologically related to them. Or they have some other issues that make adoption unappealing or difficult. But I do often remind people that adoption is a valid option for everyone, not a "second-best" option for the infertile.

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