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Don't know where else to post this; I want to have a baby for my friend - Page 4

post #61 of 107

 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 

post #62 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 

 

So you think its ok to give someone a baby as an intentional gift? It feels too much like selling babies to me.

 

I'm ok with surrogacy, so I don't know why the idea bothers me so much. It's not that I think DNA actually makes that much of a difference - my brothers were both adopted, and it certainly didn't affect the relationship we have with each other. I can't exactly pin-point it.

 

I also realize that infertility can cause wounds that cannot be healed - a baby is the desire, but adopting a baby won't always cure those wounds. Some people who are infertile are not comfortable with adoption, and because it is such a private and personal decision those feelings get explained to outsiders as "It's too expensive" or "insert other totally valid but not entirely truthful reason here". No matter how close you are to someone, that person might not share with you their true feelings about adoption/surrogacy/etc, because of that private personal nature. Like someone else has pointed out, adopting from the state is "free" - money wise. Emotionally its an entirely different beast, and while the OP's friends might be OK with adoption in theory, adopting from the state might not be an acceptable option because of the emotional turmoil that comes with not knowing if the baby will be theirs forever, especially if placed with reunification as the goal.

 

That said, if private adoption, or international adoption is too expensive, I still don't think a person is a gift. Carrying a child with someone elses DNA is a gift - intentionally conceiving your own child to give to another person is treating children as property and not people. Adoption should be in the best interest of the child. I don't think its too much to say that its not in the best interest of the child to be given away as a gift.

post #63 of 107

I think if you and your husband intentionally conceive and then give up baby, it could really be hurtful and confusing and painful for the person when they get older and try to figure it out. 

I like the idea of helping to fundraise. 

I'm not anti-adoption. 

post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

 It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

 

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it. 


You are asking a very good question here and I urge you to research why some would feel this way. I think you would like this blog- this mom is an adoptive mother and an adoptee.  So she sees both sides of the coin- and is very open about her feelings and experience and may help answer this question for you as a start... there is a lot more information out there but this would be a good place to start.

 

http://www.rebeccahawkes.com/

post #65 of 107
Thread Starter 

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?

post #66 of 107

I guess that is the question you need to ask yourself.  I do not support donating genetic material.  If you could have them get you an embryo- I would be ok with that.  Have you considered doing that?  I know that is quite costly.

 

How will you feel if you do this and then they get pregnant?  You said she is younger then you right?  She has most likely 15 years of fertility left.... I don't remember if you said there was something diagnosed that made her unable to have kids?  Has she had her tubes tied or has he had a vasectomy?

 

In my case my adoptive parents tried for 8 years to get pregnant and waited on an adoption list for 5 years( this was 70s) and then adopted me and got pregnant 3 months after they got me.  My adoption was finalized 1 day before my mom gave birth to her son.

 

How would you feel about that?  After going through all of that and then they get to have their own biological child after all?

 

There is so much to think about with this- and I just encourage you to seek out as many opinions and read as much research as you can.  There is a lot out there if you seek it out and want it.  Which is what you are doing here- but I would also talk to other birthmothers and read their blogs.... see what they have to say what their experience has been as well.  I can link some for you if you like.  There is a wide variety of experiences out there to read about....

 

And to answer your question- no it is not ethical in my book. But I am sure you can find people to agree with you.  But since you asked... No I do not think it is.

post #67 of 107
Thread Starter 

Mom31, due to complications in the c-section of her son she has had a complete hysterectomy.

post #68 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


 The combination of the two is "donating" your child that you created. I don't have an issue with egg donation or surrogacy, but I think that placing your own child for adoption, particularly your child born of you and your husband (rather than, say, one conceived with your college boyfriend when you're 21 and not ready to settle down) and that you might otherwise raise yourselves, is different than egg donation. Like I said upthread, I think the issue is in terms of what is best for the child. Do you honestly think that it would be best for this child to be raised by your friends instead of you? I'm sure you think your friends are equally good parents as you, but do you really think it would be *preferable* for your child to be raised by them? And if not, do you think the situation is in that child's best interest?

post #69 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?




Honestly, not at ALL trying to be hurtful, when I first read this sentence...the first question that pops into my head is "does this chick HAVE children!??" - but then, you do, two of them.

 

So I guess this thing that I feel is just inherent...this intense love and responsibility I felt for my children when they were born (even with my son's birth, which left me very depleted and very tired and sort of "out of it"...I never could have just handed him over to someone else) is not something everyone feels. I honestly cannot understand how a mother who already has children (so, who understands exactly what she is getting when she has a baby, knows about the cuteness of a two year old, this mindblowing intelligence and amazing mind of a four year old, etc etc) and who is in a stable, loving environment, could give up a baby that she made with her husband on purpose and grew in her womb for almost a year.....to be raised NOT far away, so she doesn't have constant, in your face reminders.....but near her, by someone she knows well. How can a loving, sane person do that without experiencing EXTREME emotional trauma??

 

I understand and praise you for your deep desire to heal a wound in your friend. I jsut feel like when you ask questions like the one above, you are being really naive. I understand not being immediately and deeply impacted and filled with love when you meet your babies...lots of women feel a delayed sense of intense connection with their babies. But you are already a mother...you know what comes after birth, after the first year, etc etc....I don't understand why you think it wouldn't be a big deal to separate yourself from that knowledge and give away a baby to this woman.

A baby is a chunk of you and a chunk of your beloved, mixed together and brought into the world. A purse or a lovely piece of art can be a gift, no matter how much you love them, they can be separated from you and you will be okay. But a baby? A baby is not a possession from which you can permanently sever ties. A baby, no matter how far away, no matter how deeply good your intentions, can NEVER truly be separated from you. That baby is a part of you and a part of your husband until the day you both draw your last breath and beyond...and then that baby grows up and has more babies...and for the rest of time, so long as the lineage of the child moves forward and the lineage of your own children does the same...your blood and that babies blood are linked. It's just what it is...and it's powerful. At least, to me it is.

Even in the shittiest of circumstances, where it's NOT the right time and the boyfriend is a douchebag who walked off when you got a positive pregnancy test and you're still in your freshman year of college and you would just be a crappy mom or whatever...EVEN THEN it's HEARTBREAKING to give up a baby.

I just can't imagine how damaging this could be for you. But maybe it wouldn't be. Maybe this is just where I am coming from. Maybe because I'm sitting here in the final days of my pregnancy, I have a skewed, hormonal idea of what this would be like for you....or, maybe where I am right now gives me much deeper clarity into the issue, who knows.

Even more than the thought of giving up my baby and not mothering him/her....the thought of giving up my husbands baby, the child of my true love....the sibling of my precious children...I couldn't. I wouldn't.

Would this be an open situation? Would everyone in the family, all of your friends, etc know what was going on? What the situation truly was?

post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


 The combination of the two is "donating" your child that you created. I don't have an issue with egg donation or surrogacy, but I think that placing your own child for adoption, particularly your child born of you and your husband (rather than, say, one conceived with your college boyfriend when you're 21 and not ready to settle down) and that you might otherwise raise yourselves, is different than egg donation. Like I said upthread, I think the issue is in terms of what is best for the child. Do you honestly think that it would be best for this child to be raised by your friends instead of you? I'm sure you think your friends are equally good parents as you, but do you really think it would be *preferable* for your child to be raised by them? And if not, do you think the situation is in that child's best interest?

 

Yeah, I really can't imagine someone being happy that they were donated or gifted to someone who couldn't have their own children after a hysterectomy. OP - your friends have a child. They may be unable to have more children, but they have a child. It is not your responsibility to heal their wounds, as a friend you can merely help support them through it.

post #71 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


Because children, babies, people are not donations. Do you think selling babies is OK?

post #72 of 107

There is no reason to create a child- solely with the intention to give to someone else,  when there are already children in need of homes that your friend could adopt- children who are in foster care- or have parents who can truly not raise them.  This is very wrong to me on so many levels. 

 

I wish you would look at the big picture.  This cute baby you want to bring into the world is going to grow up- and someday the cute story you tell them about how you made them to give them to their adoptive mom- is going to not be so cute and sweet anymore....

 

Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family  NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.

post #73 of 107

Does your friend want a newborn baby?  Or would an older child be okay? 

post #74 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom31 View Post

Does your friend want a newborn baby?  Or would an older child be okay? 

 

Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?

post #75 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

 

Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?

 

If you're thinking about offering to conceive and carry a baby for this person, you are going to have to ask, and answer, a large number of extremely personal questions. 

 

You are contemplating offering this woman an incredibly personal favor.  Shouldn't you be thinking, in detail, about what she needs and wants?

post #76 of 107
Thread Starter 

I know what she wants, but it's not my place to answer personal questions about her and her wants.  See the difference?  Asking personal questions about me, a-okay.  Asking them about her, when she's not even in the conversation, not okay.

post #77 of 107
Lazurii, this thread is overflowing with personal information about your friend already, so much that it astounds me that "is she willing to take an older child?" Is the line you will not cross. You were willing to talk about her hysterectomy - for most people, *that* would be the bridge too far. I think it's absolutely right to feel that her privacy is a concern, what I don't understand is how that concern didn't stop you four pages ago.

I do not think that having a baby for your friend is a good idea. A baby is not a pan of brownies. Your friend is going through some difficult processes, involving pain and grief that no effort can remove. This process sucks, but it's part of healing. If you want to help, bake some bread and keep the kleenex handy. Write a prayer for her peace and healing and send it in a card. Help her open mail when Christmas letters come in from people who talk about getting pregnant at the drop of a hat. Wish her the best in her adoption process. Remember that whatever you do in bed with your husband is about you and him, not you and her.
post #78 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom31 View Post

Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family  NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.

yeahthat.gif

 

Lazurii, can you put yourself in the shoes of this hypothetical child? Can you honestly say that this would be in his or her best interests? Because the child is a vitally important player in this, and can't speak for him or herself.

post #79 of 107

Given that you said earlier that you haven't even brought up this idea of yours to her yet, I don't see how YOU can possibly know "what she wants" in this situation.  What people say they want in theory vs. a specific situation is often very different.  Lots of people are open to adoption, esp. a healthy newborn.  Most will not want to adopt a baby from a close friend by friend and husband specifically "for" them.  We've come a long way in removing the squick from adoption but I do think that will be disturbing for many people.  And really, asking if someone wants to adopt a newborn vs. older child is "too personal" but you discussing her infertility and feelings online and how weirded out you would be using her husband's sperm to conceive a child isn't?  I'd be willing to bet that your friend might be less open to your idea of saving her from the pain of secondary infertility by giving her one of your children than you think she might be.  But really?  It's between the four of you.  It will impact more people than that (extended family, your current children, your friendship, their extended family, their child) but since you don't seem willing to even acknowledge that aspect and are concentrating on biology, it doesn't matter.  Legally, what you propose is probably fine.  Just don't not expect a bit of weirdedoutness from other people about it

post #80 of 107

It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?
 

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