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post #21 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I don't thi that's a fair characterization. I think if your child had a classic allergic reaction after a vaccine it would be fairly easy to get a doctor to acknowledge it. I agree it may be more difficult to convince them something more obscure was caused by an allergy, but have you ever tried to convince a doctor that a food allergy or intolerance was causing bad behavior? It's nearly impossible. The two seem pretty comparable, to me.

Here. This is your belief (which of course you are entitled to have!) You may think it's true, but you have not experienced it firsthand. Some mothers have, and they speak out about it. Do you see the criticism they suffer, on this board alone? This crunchy, non-mainstream, alternative board. Think of the criticism they face in real life, where they are the small minority!

 

Oh, and I do agree with you about food and bad behavior. 110%!!!!!!

post #22 of 81
Like I said, I'm sure getting more obscure reactions recognized is difficult, but I don't think getting a classic allergic reaction would be. Vaccines don't cause SIDS.
post #23 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Like I said, I'm sure getting more obscure reactions recognized is difficult, but I don't think getting a classic allergic reaction would be. Vaccines don't cause SIDS.

 

I didn't say they did.  But death is a known side effect, and when an infant dies right after shots, it is often blamed on SIDS.  A coincidence.  An "obscure" reaction.

 

Infection rates drop years after a vaccine is introduced and it's considered a medical achievement.  A baby dies after getting 5 shots in one day and it's a coincidence.

post #24 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

How do you know if your kid is allergic to nuts? Or eggs? Or penecillin?

 

Would you give a newborn peanuts, eggs or penecillin? That is why doctors recommend that you don't feed things like peanuts to your child until they are at least 2 years old. The older the child, the better able they are handle it. This is an example of medical experts contradicting themselves. The CDC says that a child with a weak immune system should not be given vaccines, but if you look at the facts about immune systems, that would include EVERYONE under the age of 6 months old. So why do they inject newborns with the Hep B vaccine containing: "genetic sequence of the hepatitis B virus that codes for the surface antigen (HbSAg), cloned into GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide, and thimerosal" (Recombinant Hepatitis B GlaxoSmithKline 800.366.8900 x5231)? (Aluminum Hydroxide is a neurotoxin that has been linked to dementia, Alzheimer's, encephalitis and other neurological disorders. It is in other vaccines as well and repeated use of aluminum hydroxide can cause a build up of aluminum in the brain, liver, thyroid, and lung tissues and can cause impairment of the kidneys which can lead to other disorders. Thimerosal is another powerful Neurotoxin that contains about 50% mercury which is the second most toxic chemical known to man. http://voices.yahoo.com/engerix-b-hepatitis-b-vaccine-ingredients-1817107.html )

Would you inject a fetus in their 2nd or 3rd trimester with GMO yeast, aluminum hydroxide or thimerosal? Common sense says no.... Newborn babies are only weeks older than that.
Infants, to some doctors, are considered to be "in the 4th trimester" and are still very fragile. Wellness dot com says that a newborn's immune system is not developed until they are about 6 months old. [link to www.wellness.com] No newborn infant has a fully developed immune system, so therefore no newborn should receive any vaccinations according the CDC's own statement.

post #25 of 81
Drs no longer recommend that. There's no reason not to feed everything except honey starting at six months.
post #26 of 81
If you would like to have a conversation about vaccine additives I think it would be best to start a new thread.
post #27 of 81

 

 

Quote:
The Science Behind Herd Immunity – And an Extension to GMOs?

 

 

 

 

Quote:

The concept of herd immunity, as taken up by proponents of vaccination, is used to accomplish three things:

  • Promote a sense of guilt in nonvaccinators, convince them of the idea that they may be responsible for others—including the vaccinated!—being infected with disease.
  • Encourage an aggressive response from vaccinators against nonvaccinators by giving the impression that those who don’t vaccinate are to blame for disease.
  • Press for governmental enforcement of vaccinations for everyone, regardless of different viewpoints, philosophical ideas, or individual rights—and regardless of the inherent risks of vaccination.
post #28 of 81

On subject of herd immunity... 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf from 1967 puts herd immunity at 55% of pop. being immune through previous measles infection. When the # of people no immune raises, it says outbreaks occur.

 

Now it looks like it needs to be 83% - 94% for measles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity.

 

So who/what is wrong?

 

So, I would really like to know more about this and MMR. I have seen some places, don't have links handy at the moment, that MMR once thought to last lifetime. Then that appeared to not be the case for a significant # of population, and 2nd shot was added. Anecdotal, but I have seen a few women coming to these boards to discuss vaccination (postpartum) after they discover their rubella immunity wore off and were tested while pregnant. I wonder how many of us adults who received MMR actually still have immunity to all or some of those. I wonder if the pre-vax population is boosting up herd immunity with their natural immunity, and if in a few decades we will have more outbreaks and/or MMR boosters.

 

ETA:

 

Mumps resurgence in the United States.

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17030249

 

Quote:
A total of 2597 mumps cases have been reported in the United States in 11 states since January 1, 2006, representing a marked resurgence of mumps in a single year. The majority of these recent cases have occurred in college students age 18 to 25 years. Most were vaccinated with 2 doses of measles, mumps, and rubella-containing vaccines...
A review of mumps is provided with discussion of potential mechanisms for vaccine failure.

 

Mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated school population. Evidence for large-scale vaccination failure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7795768

 

Measles revaccination response in a school-age population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1945606

 

Serological response to measles revaccination in a highly immunized military dependent adolescent population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2054370

 

Quote:
 Since most of these individuals had received first immunizations at 15 months of age or older, these findings suggest that secondary vaccine failure (waning immunity) was responsible for the putative "lowered" immunity in these individuals, instead of primary vaccine failure (maternal antibody suppression).

 

Investigation of a mumps outbreak among university students with two measles-mumps-rubella(MMR) vaccinations, Virginia, September-December 2006.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19697404

 

 

I am seeing 95% efficacy for MMR vax? Anyone know anything more about how long it really lasts??


Edited by slmommy - 5/20/12 at 8:01am
post #29 of 81
There's a saying "when the facts change I change my mind, what do you do?"

The second dose of mmr is not because immunity wanes it's because not everyone has immunity after the first dose and the second dose catches most of the people who don't after the first dose. It is not because they suddenly decided immunity was fading and people needed boosters.

Our understanding of how long vaccines last is developing as vaccines are around longer. Current estimates for length of immunity from mmr are limited by how long the vaccine has been around (it is believed to be lifelong)
post #30 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

There's a saying "when the facts change I change my mind, what do you do?"
The second dose of mmr is not because immunity wanes it's because not everyone has immunity after the first dose and the second dose catches most of the people who don't after the first dose. It is not because they suddenly decided immunity was fading and people needed boosters.
Our understanding of how long vaccines last is developing as vaccines are around longer. Current estimates for length of immunity from mmr are limited by how long the vaccine has been around (it is believed to be lifelong)

 

 

Long-term persistence of mumps antibody after receipt of 2 measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations and antibody response after a third MMR vaccination among a university population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419346

 

 

Quote:
Lower levels of NA observed among persons who received MMR2 > or =15 years ago demonstrates antibody decay over time. MMR3 vaccination of most seronegative persons marked the capacity to mount an anamnestic response.

 

...looks like maybe more MMR boosters are going to come around in the future!

post #31 of 81
Fading over time is not the same as a loss of immunity.
post #32 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Fading over time is not the same as a loss of immunity.

 

even when previously vaxed individuals are getting ill with the vpds? 

post #33 of 81
Previously vaccinated individuals get I'll because the vaccine doesn't "take" for everyone. In some cases, like pertussis, we see a much higher than expected rate of the disease in vaccinated individuals and it clues us in something is wrong with the vaccine or it is fading faster than we thought. There is always some expected amount of infection, though. To my knowledge there haven't been mumps outbreaks at levels that would indicate a loss of immunity.

The vaccine recc for mumps did change in the 90s from one shot to two, so some young adults who were vaccinated before that time don't have immunity. Hence the reccomenfaion for an additional mmr before college.
post #34 of 81

looks like there is a lot of talk about secondary vaccine failure for Mumps (above links as well)

 

Outbreak of mumps in a vaccinated child population: a question of vaccine failure?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15246601

 

Quote:
In Belgium, children are immunized against measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) in a two-dose schedule at the age of 15 months and 11 years. Despite these recommendations, epidemics of mumps still occur. During an outbreak of mumps in Bruges (Belgium), 105 cases were registered in seven schools (age group 3-12 years). Lower than optimal vaccination coverage, inadequate vaccination schedule and a combination of primary and/or secondary vaccine failure are considered as possible reasons for the outbreak as described in the article. The role of secondary vaccine failure is highlighted.

 

and some for measles:

 

Secondary measles vaccine failures identified by measurement of IgG avidity: high occurrence among teenagers vaccinated at a young age.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10813152

 

Quote:
 Secondary measles-vaccine failures are more common than was more previously thought, particularly among individuals vaccinated in early life, long ago, and among re-vaccinees. Waning immunity even among individuals vaccinated after 15 months of age, without the boosting effect of natural infections should be considered a relevant possibility in future planning of vaccination against measles.
post #35 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Previously vaccinated individuals get I'll because the vaccine doesn't "take" for everyone. In some cases, like pertussis, we see a much higher than expected rate of the disease in vaccinated individuals and it clues us in something is wrong with the vaccine or it is fading faster than we thought. There is always some expected amount of infection, though. To my knowledge there haven't been mumps outbreaks at levels that would indicate a loss of immunity.
The vaccine recc for mumps did change in the 90s from one shot to two, so some young adults who were vaccinated before that time don't have immunity. Hence the reccomenfaion for an additional mmr before college.

 

These studies I have posted all note secondary vaccine failure. Primary vaccine failure is when it "doesn't take" the first time. 

post #36 of 81

Prior to the administration of any pharmaceutical drugs, patients and their guardians should be fully informed of any and all potential side effects, according to government guidelines. Therefore anyone contemplating a vaccine should be given the opportunity to read the full manufacturer's package insert before consenting to the procedure.


This is the link to the MMRII package insert from Merck: http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

"Individuals first vaccinated at 12 months of age or older should be revaccinated prior to elementary school entry. Revaccination is intended to seroconvert those who do not respond to the first dose. The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) recommends administration of the first dose of M-M-R II at 12 to 15 months of age and administration of the second dose of M-M-R II at 4 to 6 years of age.59"

"Women of childbearing age should be advised not to become pregnant for 3 months after vaccination and should be informed of the reasons for this precaution."

 

"Excretion of small amounts of the live attenuated rubella virus from the nose or throat has occurred in the majority of susceptible individuals 7 to 28 days after vaccination. "

 

"M-M-R II has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility."

post #37 of 81
Glad they're continuing to pay attention and gather information on how long the immunity lasts.
post #38 of 81

Patently untrue. Pertussis has been implicated for decades in SIDS. It is the reason the DTP was phased out in the West.

 

The DTaP package insert from Glaxo SMith Kline (just one of five vaccines containing pertussis antigen): http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf

 

"6.2 Postmarketing Experience

In addition to reports in clinical trials, worldwide voluntary reports of adverse events received for INFANRIX since market introduction are listed below. This list includes serious events and events which have a plausible causal connection to INFANRIX. These adverse events were reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size; therefore, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to vaccination.

Infections and Infestations: Bronchitis, cellulitis, respiratory tract infection. Blood and Lymphatic System Disorders: Lymphadenopathy, thrombocytopenia. Immune System Disorders: Anaphylactic reaction, hypersensitivity. Nervous System Disorders: Encephalopathy, headache, hypotonia, syncope. Ear and Labyrinth Disorders: Ear pain. Cardiac Disorders: Cyanosis. Respiratory, Thoracic, and Mediastinal Disorders: Apnea, cough. Skin and Subcutaneous Tissue Disorders: Angioedema, erythema, pruritus, rash,

urticaria. General Disorders and Administration Site Conditions: Fatigue, injection site

induration, injection site reaction, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome."

post #39 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzy65 View Post

Prior to the administration of any pharmaceutical drugs, patients and their guardians should be fully informed of any and all potential side effects, according to government guidelines. Therefore anyone contemplating a vaccine should be given the opportunity to read the full manufacturer's package insert before consenting to the procedure.


This is the link to the MMRII package insert from Merck: http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

"Individuals first vaccinated at 12 months of age or older should be revaccinated prior to elementary school entry. Revaccination is intended to seroconvert those who do not respond to the first dose. The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) recommends administration of the first dose of M-M-R II at 12 to 15 months of age and administration of the second dose of M-M-R II at 4 to 6 years of age.59"

"Women of childbearing age should be advised not to become pregnant for 3 months after vaccination and should be informed of the reasons for this precaution."

 

"Excretion of small amounts of the live attenuated rubella virus from the nose or throat has occurred in the majority of susceptible individuals 7 to 28 days after vaccination. "

 

"M-M-R II has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility."

 

Also for any teen/adult women:

 

 it states that rubella virus can be shed through breastmilk of mother's vaxed postpartum, and potentially cause mild clinical case. Unknown if measles and mumps shed through BM. (page 6 under Nursing Mothers)

 

and 

 

Quote:
Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%)
post #40 of 81

[Mumps epidemic in vaccinated children in West Switzerland].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9312835

 

Quote:
 Primary vaccine failures (absence of seroconversion or unprotective low levels of neutralizing antibodies), as well as secondary vaccine failures due to the rapid decline of antibodies to mumps virus in our volunteers and controls, seem to be frequent after vaccination with the Rubini strain. 3. Despite its reported Swiss origin, the Rubini strain does not belong to the mumps virus lineages recently circulating in this area but is closely related to American mumps virus strains. 4. Differences in protein structure between the vaccine strain and the circulating wild type strains, and in particular a different neutralization epitope in the hemagglutinin neuraminidase protein, may additionally contribute to the lack of protection in vaccinated individuals.  (this last part is interesting too).

 

[Duration of immunity and occurrence of secondary vaccine failure following vaccination against measles, mumps and rubella].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1509566

Quote:
The present article illustrates the extent of secondary vaccine failure after vaccination for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR). Secondary vaccinefailure means loss of the immunity induced by vaccination to such an extent that infection becomes possible....
 Subclinical infection is not uncommon after all three vaccines. Where measles is concerned, immunity may possibly be regarded as a continuum which, depending upon the antibody level, protects the individual from various degrees of clinical disease. If wild virus can be spread via individuals with subclinical infections, it is doubtful whether population immunity (herd immunity), which is necessary to eliminate the three diseases, can be attained in large populations

 

....so I guess secondary vax failure really DOES exist for MMR.

 

I think this is going to have big implications when baby boomers are gone, their natural immunity is probably boosting the herd at the moment. 

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