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post #41 of 81
That's not the same as saying it's widespread or a regular occurrence.
post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

That's not the same as saying it's widespread or a regular occurrence.

 

I don't really know if we know that either way. We don't know about the adults who only received 1 MMR... or the adults who got 2 and haven't had a booster in 20 years. 

 

...we don't know how long chicken pox vax is going to last either... we are the guinea pigs.

post #43 of 81

Emmy526, you've hit the nail on the head.

It's called "scapegoating," and we see it over and over again in history, particularly during difficult economic times.

The pharmaceutical industry is taking advantage of caring, intelligent, well-meaning doctors by capitalizing on the fear of disease, and the herd mentality of the average citizen, to scapegoat the unvaccinated.

The recent pertussis outbreaks is a perfect example. They blame the unvaccinated, in spite of the fact that the vaccine doesn't work, and the vast majority of pertussis occurs in the fully vaccinated.

They hide behind the authoritative mantle of "science," while attacking and demonizing those who question vaccine safety--again ignoring the facts, like the fact that most of us DID vaccinate out children, with horrific results.

Result: the average vaccinating citizen follows what they read in the news, and directs their fear and anger at those who don't (or cant) vaccinate.

Result: the government gets involved, and limits the rights of those who don't (or can't) vaccinate.

Result: in some cases, parents are threatened with jail, or having their child taken. In at least one case, a child WAS taken at birth, from a couple who only said they wanted to wait on hep B vaccination (the recent case at the Hershey Medical Center).

What's next? Will they mandate that unvaxed people only be able to shop at certain stores or at certain times? Will they have separate schools, drinking fountains, and swimming pools? Will they be allowed to live only in designated neighborhoods?

It's been done before, based on color of skin and religion. Both times, "science" was used as an excuse.
post #44 of 81

I stumbled upon this, and I think it makes a good point in regards to herd immunity as moral obligation:

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15204177

Quote:
Solidarity, however, could never be accepted as an argument without parents trusting the messages from the health institutions and availability of reasonable societal support for those who claim an association between vaccinations and possible side effects.

 

I do not trust certain health institutions. It is clear that there are many problems of transparency between pharma, vax and govt policy. Problems with research funding and revolving doors of employment between pharma positions and govt positions. I think there is too much on the vax schedule and too early, and I see little admittance of vax reactions and little concern about vax safety. Hard liner pro-vax makes me react even more, there is no picking battles - yes every newborn needs hep B and cp vax is now fundamental, anyone who has been vax injured is just a liar, or it is all coincidental you crazy mom! .... but that's just my perspective, and I guess why herd immunity argument plays no role in my vax decisions.

post #45 of 81
I don't think anyone should vax or not vax because of here immunity. You should do what you think is best for your child.
post #46 of 81
A few agencies acting inappropriately does not translate to massive government action. My daughter didn't get hep b at birth and at my urging neither did my nephew. In neither case did anyone bat an eyelash.

I don't think women who say their child had a reaction are lying or crazy, I just don't think those reactions are as prevalent as some people do.
post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

A few agencies acting inappropriately does not translate to massive government action. My daughter didn't get hep b at birth and at my urging neither did my nephew. In neither case did anyone bat an eyelash.
I don't think women who say their child had a reaction are lying or crazy, I just don't think those reactions are as prevalent as some people do.

"a few agencies acting inappropriately?". What, like 2 entire states doing away with religious and philosophical exemptions? Or the governor of Texas attempting to mandate Gardasil? Or were you referring to the state of California's bill that now permits vaccination of children as young as 12 with neither parental consent or knowledge?
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I don't think women who say their child had a reaction are lying or crazy, I just don't think those reactions are as prevalent as some people do.

Easy to say when it's not your child. Of course, your child didn't GET the birth dose of hep B....
post #49 of 81
I don't think doing away with personal exemptions is inappropriate. I think tying vaccination to school entry is perfectly appropriate. I was referring to getting dcfs involved when someone declines vaccination.

I don't even know what the comment about me not getting hep b at birth even means. I've said several times I disagree with routine hep b dosing of newborns because I believe it interferes with breastfeeding. I can understand why ts public health policy, though.
post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

"a few agencies acting inappropriately?". What, like 2 entire states doing away with religious and philosophical exemptions? Or the governor of Texas attempting to mandate Gardasil? Or were you referring to the state of California's bill that now permits vaccination of children as young as 12 with neither parental consent or knowledge?

 

well, without dragging in other health issues/drugs outside of vax scope...

 

Quote:
You've heard it before, how the pharmaceutical industry has a giant "revolving door" through which corporations and government agencies frequently exchange key employees. That reality was driven home in a huge way today when news broke that Dr. Julie Gerberding, who headed the CDC from 2002 through 2009, landed a top job with Merck, one of the largest drug companies in the world. Her job there? She's the new president ofthe vaccine division

 

Quote:

 a copy of a letter from Congressman David Weldon, M.D. to the director of the CDC, Dr Julie L. Gerberding, in which he alludes to a study by a Doctor Thomas Verstraeten, then representing the CDC, on the connection between infant exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental injury. In this shocking letter Congressman Weldon referrers to Dr. Verstraeten's study which looked at the data from the Vaccine Safety Datalink and found a significant correlation between thimerosal exposure via vaccines and several neurodevelopmental disorders including tics, speech and language delays, and possibly to ADD.
...
Congressman Weldon questions the CDC director as to why, following this meeting, Dr. Verstraeten published his results, almost four years later, in the journal Pediatrics to show just the opposite, that is, that there was no correlation to any neurodevelopmental problems related to thimerosal exposure in infants.
...
 It was discovered by Congressman Weldon that Dr. Verstraeten left the CDC shortly after this conference to work for GlaxoSmithKline in Belgium which manufacturers vaccines, a recurring pattern that has been given the name a "revolving door" It is also interesting to note that GlaxoSmithKline was involved in several lawsuits over complications secondary to their vaccines.

 

Quote:

Gardasil vaccine was fast tracked to licensure by the Food and Drug Administration in 2006.2
...
 Merck only studied Gardasil in fewer than 1200 girls under age 16 and followed them up for about two years before lobbyists tried, unsuccessfully in 2007, to get the vaccine mandated for all sixth grade girls in every state.13
...
Merck is asking the FDA to license Gardasil for young boys,16 an action that will expand Merck’s market by tens of millions of dollars.17 In 2008, the global sales from Gardasil topped $2 billion dollars.18
 
Gardasil Approval: FDA Apparently Does Not Follow Its Own Rules
http://www.naturalnews.com/031426_Gardasil_FDA.html

 

Quote:
It appears Paul Offit joined the ACIP to ensure he could influence the approval of the Rotavirus vaccine, from which he would later benefit greatly when his own version of rotavirus vaccine was approved. Not surprisingly, Paul Offit voted yes on every action he could relating to the approval of Wyeth's vaccine. But, when the vaccine was being pulled from the market, Offit abstained [from voting]
...
"A particularly troubling aspect of the deliberations on the 'RotaShield' vaccine is the sequence of events. The ACIP Committee voted to recommend universal vaccinations of infants before the FDA licensure of the vaccine. Officials of the CDC acknowledged that they knew of no other instance where this has happened."
...
On February 23, 2006 the ACIP voted to add Paul Offit's vaccine, Rotateq, to the U.S. Immunization schedule. As we all know, Dr. Offit has conceded this vaccine "made him rich." 
...
Based on the preceding realities, it would seem that the ACIP recommendations for the universal use of RotaTeq were, at best, premature and unwarranted.

 

Quote:
The Food and Drug Administration found serious problems of bacterial contamination at an influenza vaccine plant in England in 2003, 16 months before British regulators effectively closed the site and impounded its flu shots because of fears they were tainted.
...
revealed that the agency was nine months late in giving Chiron Corp., the owner of the plant, a detailed report of the problems it found and then rebuffed the company's efforts to learn more about what it could do to fix things. At the same time, FDA managers overruled its inspection team and made its fixes voluntary rather than mandatory.

 

Quote:

 Katherine Sebelius, the Health and Human Services Secretary, granted legal immunity for vaccine manufacturers during the stage 6 pandemic declared by the WHO. Even more troubling than the new vaccines or antivirals themselves, is the Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) declared by the FDA, which enables the use of expired stockpiles of Tamiflu orRelenza, and non-compliance with label requirements. The EUA authority will also permit the FDA to allow the use of “unapproved or uncleared medical products” during an established emergency.
 
Nationwide, federal officials say the H1N1 flu may infect half the U.S. population, and 90,000 people may die.

 

but heck those are just what I can think of off the top of my head. I don't have 100% trust for FDA, ACIP, AAP, etc. But maybe that is just me. shrug.gif

 

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/scientific_integrity/how-corporations-corrupt-science.pdf

 

I think informed choice should exist for vaccines. It doesn't. 

post #51 of 81

I have no trust in them either. You can't put your faith and trust into these organizations. You need to have a belief that they are wholesome and good, and I just don't have that blind faith in them.

Excellent links by the way!

post #52 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

I have no trust in them either. You can't put your faith and trust into these organizations. You need to have a belief that they are wholesome and good, and I just don't have that blind faith in them.

Excellent links by the way!

 

You know, I don't even think they are "bad," or that there is some conspiracy, but I do think corporate interests muck up some of the transparency.

 

I know some people won't like the links smile.gif but I was too lazy to get the root articles and I like some of the wording...

post #53 of 81
Not to nitpick or get in the middle, but posting a link is not a citation. That is all, as you were.
post #54 of 81
Dtap rates ARE down in areas across the country. The overall rate means nothin because unvaccinated individuals are not distributed evenly. Again, providing information about something related to what I said is not the same as proving what I said wrong, or whatever you are trying to attempt to do.

No one has to take my words for truth, please don't, actually, but don't follow me around playing gotcha when you apparently don't understand what I said in the first place.
post #55 of 81

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1353711/pertussis-its-not-just-wa-state-2012-numbers-as-of-2-days-ago

 

post #18 stik

 

making up numbers is not ok. Would you like it if I say, oh, male infertility from mumps has only ever happened 3 times in all of history.... now go find studies that disprove that, or I will just keep repeating it.

post #56 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

 

I think I was civil for the first page of posts... don't think I am the *only* one that keeps it coming... this is NOT one sided.

 

and yes I do think errors should be pointed out or corrected. preferrably with a link or source to explain.

 

do you know how many times I've corrected that vaccines do NOT contain aborted fetal cells? 

Yeah, that stuff happens over and over.  The boards have crashed a couple times, so my complete collection of "No, Rhogam doesn't contain mercury" is no longer available, but it's been at least 10% of my posts over the years.  

post #57 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I have no recollection of you getting on my nerves.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1350106/misleading-reports-about-autism-data/520#post_16962622

 

I have clicked "like" on one or two of your posts, and even Stik's before.  If you say something that I agree with, I will say so or click "like". I actually like when that happens, believe it or not!

post #58 of 81
Yeah, sorry, still not ringing a bell.
post #59 of 81

Maybe we should just get a dislike button to cut down on the bickering.

post #60 of 81

I think the ramifications would be unfortunate.  I'll admit, I have wanted one, and I think that's a sign of how far wrong things have gone.  

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