Vaccine Link request, if possible - Page 4

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Yeah, sorry, still not ringing a bell.

See, this is why I can't take you seriously. It seems like you're trying to be difficult now.
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1350106/misleading-reports-about-autism-data/520#post_16962622

Posts 536-537. Note, I apologized, and didn't address you again. I didn't want to irritate you, considering you had a sick child at the time.

[Rrrrrachel]

That's not what I said. You keep mischaracterizing my posts

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Yeah, sorry, still not ringing a bell.

See, this is why I can't take you seriously. It seems like you're trying to be difficult now.
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1350106/misleading-reports-about-autism-data/520#post_16962622

Posts 536-537. Note, I apologized, and didn't address you again. I didn't want to irritate you, considering you had a sick child at the time.

Oh sorry I forgot about that. That wasn't really about you but I appreciate the empathy.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

That's not what I said. You keep mischaracterizing my posts

You are doing this to me too. Here I write a big post asking about MMR wearing off, and you latch onto one issue about MMR primary failure and the 2nd dose instead of what I was wanting to talk about. 

On the other thread yesterday, I state that I think most parents don't realize some vax shed... and you latch onto how shedding essentially means nothing (in your opinion), when, really, you actually do agree with that I said... That most parents don't realize vax shed, and should.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

So stop going around all these othe threads and talking about how I was wrong and you fixed me. I let it go at the time because I didn't want to bicker, but apparently that have you the wrong idea, so maybe next time I shoul react differently.
When you say something about shedding and then i say something about shedding that's called a conversation.
You said mmr must wear off because now there's a second dose. I pointed out what the second dose is really for. You posted links where someone speculated that part of the effect in a study might have been from secondary vaccine failure, or one of like four other things.
Like I said 1. Knowledge of the length o immunity changes over time and is limited by the amount of time the vaccine has been available 2. Immunity from mmr is believed to be lifelong.

yeah, i got the point about the 2nd dose being added to schedule primarily because of primary failure, but why do you keep repeatinging things like this

2. Immunity from mmr is believed to be lifelong.

when I posted a ton of things stating otherwise, and not just someone speculating... measurable antibody response...

Quote:

Lower levels of NA observed among persons who received MMR2 > or =15 years ago demonstrates antibody decay over time. MMR3 vaccination of most seronegative persons marked the capacity to mount an anamnestic response.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419346

 Secondary measles-vaccine failures are more common than was more previously thought, particularly among individuals vaccinated in early life, long ago, and among re-vaccinees. Waning immunity even among individuals vaccinated after 15 months of age, without the boosting effect of natural infections should be considered a relevant possibility in future planning of vaccination against measles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10813152

[Mosaic]

It's one thing to ask for clarification or to make a correction. It's quite another to accuse someone of being intentionally misleading, provoking, mean, etc. The only thing that accomplishes is increasing the hostility and clouding the issues.

I understand that this is an emotional topic and that we don't all like everything that is said, or how it is said, or even who is saying it.

End the bickering and personal in-fighting or I will force you all to hold hands for a round of kumbaya and a week of hugging, loving team-building activities!!

[Rrrrrachel]

1. That was an estimate. Trust me, I now wish I had been vaguer and said something like "around a dozen" since I was speaking from memory and didn't have the source in front of me. I did not make anything up. The number of confirmed cases of horizontal transmission from vaccines is very very low, not significantly different from ten or twelve. I realize some people thinks here is mass under reporting going on, I disagree with that for a variety of reasons. None or that changes the point I was trying to make that infections from shedding are very very rare bordering on nonexistent. I think it's important that people know it happens, but I think it's also important they be able to put the risk in perspective.

2. I have acknowledged that our understanding of immunity changes over time. At this time, mmr is still believed to last a lifetime. Posting studies the show antibody decay, which is not equivalent to a loss of immunity, or speculate that there might have been secondary vaccine failure does not change that this is the current consensus of the scientific community. I'm glad to see they're still investigating it so that if it turns out the immunity doesn't last as long as we thought we can adjust the vaccine schedule accordingly. That is how science works. We think one thing, we see enough evidence to the contrary, and we change out mind. Someone somewhere speculating that something might happen usually does not meet that threshold, though.

3. There are more and more pockets of unvaccinated children, especially for Dtap, all over the country. The overall rate might be up, but since unvaccinated people are not uniformly distributed that doesn't mean much. This is at least the third time I've explained that.

We disagree on these facts. That is fine. I'm comfortable with that because I feel like I said what I had to say, you said what you had to say,and Poole can judge for themselves. However, going around and talking trash about me as a result of reasonable disagreement for WHATEVER reason is not cool.

[Rrrrrachel]

I posted those last two things while mosaic was posting. Out of respect for her I am going to take my own advice and walk away.

[slmommy]

*

[purslaine]

OP:

here are some CDC links:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/default.htm#nisadult

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/downloads/nis-adult-summer-2007.pdf

[Mosaic]

I have removed multiple posts from this thread and could probably remove a lot more if I had the time. Remember that you can address personal issues via PM, but they do NOT belong on the thread.

If we need a reminder about what this thread is actually about, here's the OP:

Originally Posted by erinsuzy 

I had heard more than once @ 2 years ago when I was on Facebook that the percent of adults vaccinated in America was @ 2%. I have not been able to find any valid links, and I am sure the % has since changed, but I was wondering if any of you who are more knowledgable have also heard of this? Does anyone have any links? (The CDC website proved to be confusing and I question their data for some reason, but any links should be helpful.)

The argument that people often use to debate with me is usually about "Herd immunity", but from what I understand herd immunity does not exist if the adult population is not also vaccinated. (If I am wrong about that please fill me in.) The closest link I have found that states statistics is this one, (which happens to be pro-vaccine):

http://news.idsociety.org/idsa/issues/2010-02-01/index.html

"Only 2.1 percent of eligible adults have had the tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis vaccine in the previous two years, the report notes, while only 10 percent of eligible adult women have had the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine. Just 36 percent of all adults were vaccinated against influenza in 2008."


Thanks in advance

[Rrrrrachel]

Herd immunity does not apply to tetanus. The two year measure is a little odd since the minimum tdap length overseen is it's effective for four years. I'm not sure if you went it to four years it would go up much, though. I don't think we have herd immunity for pertussis, although I think it is possible. We are probably lucky on diphtheria because it is already so rare.

We definitely don't have herd immunity for the flu and probably never will.

A lot of these things are more prevalent in the adult population because of problems with adult vaccination rates, but are also less serious in healthy adults.

[purslaine]

None - the-less, rrrachel…..if a booster exists for an adult they need to get it…or they do not have any credibility when they complain about herd immunity issues.  

DPT has boosters, right?  Tetanus requires no booster from a herd immunity POV, but diptheria and pertussis certainly do.

[Rrrrrachel]

I think I addressed that.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

None - the-less, rrrachel…..if a booster exists for an adult they need to get it…or they do not have any credibility when they complain about herd immunity issues.

Did someone here who is "complaining" about herd immunity issues say they didn't get it?

[Rrrrrachel]

From a public health standpoint the conversation doesn't go "look at those outbreaks, those baad baaaad non vaxxers are killing us all" it goes "wow, the vaccination coverage rate isn't good in these areas, we really need to get it up.". I can see how it's easy to take discussions of here immunity personally, but (at least for me) it's really not like that.

Here immunity is measurable, by the way. I saw a study the other day that looked at different populations and measured the drop in disease in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations after vaccination started. The drop in the unvaccinated population is the herd effect. I will try to find and post it when I get back to my computer later.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Did someone here who is "complaining" about herd immunity issues say they didn't get it?

Rrrachel seemed to be justifying adults not getting boosters.  If I read it wrong, so be it.  (rrrachel ?- clarify, please)

If I leave rrrachel out of it (and really, I am not out to get her, lol) the point holds.

People in general who complain how unvaxxed kiddos are making measles come back, while not getting their adult boosters, need to look at their own house first.  Yes, I imagine it happens - adult booster rates are fairly low, and hatred of non-vaxxing is pretty high.

[Rrrrrachel]

Oh no, sorry, that wasn't what I intended to say. Adults not getting boosters is a huge barrier to here immunity. It's a big part of why we don't have here immunity for pertussis. Get your shots, people.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Oh no, sorry, that wasn't what I intended to say. Adults not getting boosters is a huge barrier to here immunity. It's a big part of why we don't have here immunity for pertussis. Get your shots, people.

 Thanks for clarifying, rrachel.

You might not have said it - that might just be what I read.

I admit I did not read the entire thread, so I might have lost some context.

Communication online is not always the easiest.

[Rrrrrachel]

Indeed not! Happy to clarify when necessary. Thanks for asking.