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How common are serious vaccine reactions? - Page 2

post #21 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It's a fact. I'm aware it's one not everyone believes in.

 

What makes it a fact?  Historical charts?

post #22 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

It is a fact that vaccines have all but eliminated the many vaccine preventable diseases that used to kill people.
Where is the increasing evidence that vaccines cause those things? Other than the phone survey that generation rescue did.

Or perhaps, like polio, the diagnostic criteria changed after introduction of the vaccine. Or perhaps there was confusion surrounding the diagnostic criteria, as we have seen with flu and h1n1.
http://www.bmj.com/content/312/7023/101.full

Many of us have posted peer-reviewed, mainstream science studies and case reports as evidence that vaccines and even specific vaccine ingredients are causally linked to the disorders I mention in my last post. Please feel free to look back at those citations, or to search on PubMed to find them yourself.
post #23 of 157
Thread Starter 
Just1more: I know it's not perfect, but I guess I give it more credit than you. Every drs visit is recorded, unless for some reason they didn't use insurance. In the computing age I'm not sure there is such a thing as too much data. I agree we haven't been able to do a lot long term yet, but this is a step in that direction. A lot of these people will be able to be tracked long term as they stay in the same HMO system. There are also ways of estimating long term effects by doing things like comparing rates of various things in older and younger generations to see if things have gotten more prevalent as we've administered more vaccines.
post #24 of 157

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

 

And, is it really "countless" other parents? Are these people you know IRL, or are they online? I believe that vax reactions occur, but you make it sound like it happens to everyone and that its so so so common that its to be expected. I just can't see that its THAT common - I know countless people who have never had any type of reaction to vaxes, and not a single person who has had a major reaction - I suppose its possible we just run in entirely different circles of people?

This points to something important, imo. If you frequent online anti-vax communities (or RL groups with the same slant), of course you'll know lots of people who had problems, but that is because they self-select. To get a better sense of the prevalence in the population (on an anecdotal level, anyway), what you want to do is look at a group that would have no reason to self-select based on having suffered or not suffered a vaccine reaction. RL is much better for this, or perhaps an online group that has nothing at all to do with vaccines or with anything particularly crunchy. So if you take a look at everyone you know from work, school, your religious community, your neighborhood, old high school friends on Facebook, etc. and evaluate the rate of serious reactions in them and their families, typically you'd find that serious reactions are... rare. (How rare in numbers is harder to figure out.)

 

The online phenomenon of self-assortment in a way that we can never do IRL messes with our gut sense of how common a certain occurrence is.

post #25 of 157
Thread Starter 
This is getting really off topic. I'm not really interested in rehashing the same conversations I've already had multiple times. If either of you would like to present some data that shows serious vaccine side effects are more common than I've said please do. Or even less serious ones. How common are they? I'll even take a gut guess. What percentage of people who get vaccinated do you think suffer serious or long term harm?
post #26 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

Quote:

This points to something important, imo. If you frequent online anti-vax communities (or RL groups with the same slant), of course you'll know lots of people who had problems, but that is because they self-select. To get a better sense of the prevalence in the population (on an anecdotal level, anyway), what you want to do is look at a group that would have no reason to self-select based on having suffered or not suffered a vaccine reaction. RL is much better for this, or perhaps an online group that has nothing at all to do with vaccines or with anything particularly crunchy. So if you take a look at everyone you know from work, school, your religious community, your neighborhood, old high school friends on Facebook, etc. and evaluate the rate of serious reactions in them and their families, typically you'd find that serious reactions are... rare. (How rare in numbers is harder to figure out.)

 

The online phenomenon of self-assortment in a way that we can never do IRL messes with our gut sense of how common a certain occurrence is.

 

But to me it's more than serious reactions that are visible right away.  

 

It's that among kids I know that are grade-school age, most have some kind of chronic health issue or developmental delay.  Asthma, food allergies, autoimmune disorders, ASD, SPD, ADD/ADHD, severe speech delays.  None of my son's many friends are "healthy".  

 

Even something as seemingly minor as my friend's infant going on a nursing strike after her 6 month shots that almost derailed their breastfeeding relationship.  Doesn't sound like a big deal, but this probably happens quite often and puts those children at increased risk for all of the illnesses that breastfeeding helps prevent.

post #27 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

It's that among kids I know that are grade-school age, most have some kind of chronic health issue or developmental delay.  Asthma, food allergies, autoimmune disorders, ASD, SPD, ADD/ADHD, severe speech delays.  None of my son's many friends are "healthy".  


A fair point. It's hard to know what is causing these problems.

post #28 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by erigeron View Post


A fair point. It's hard to know what is causing these problems.

 

I agree, and I am not saying that vaccines are the sole cause, but it's a concern.

post #29 of 157
Thread Starter 
So what percent of vaccinated children do you think suffer long term harm? Including things like add or cessation of nursing. All of them?
post #30 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

So what percent of vaccinated children do you think suffer long term harm? Including things like add or cessation of nursing. All of them?

 

I could not and would not even venture a guess.  The problem is, we may never know, or if anyone is actually looking into these things, how many children will have already been harmed?  How can we possibly know what damage is going on inside an infant's body without an apparent reaction?

post #31 of 157
Thread Starter 
Ok. I was just curious.
post #32 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

This is getting really off topic. I'm not really interested in rehashing the same conversations I've already had multiple times. If either of you would like to present some data that shows serious vaccine side effects are more common than I've said please do. Or even less serious ones. How common are they? I'll even take a gut guess. What percentage of people who get vaccinated do you think suffer serious or long term harm?

 

This is not data - it is an anecdote  duck.gif, but it is a first hand account (mine!)

 

I was vaccinated in grade 11 for MMR.  I had a reaction - albeit somewhat minor.  I hallucinated about an hour or two after my shot.  I was in math class and I literally believed I was a bug on the wall watching math class.   I do not know what caused it - but it was obviously a neurological reaction of some sort, or caused by intense fever.  Many of my classmates went home from school ill from the shot.   I came to no long term harm, but do think it is safer to vaccinate a child once they can talk and tell you what is going on.  My reaction was not visible to the world.  

 

I do not want to make a gut guess on serious reaction rates.  I do think baby boys are at more risk for vaccine reactions than girls - and no, it is not just about autism.  Boys have higher rates of all neurological issues, and seem somewhat weaker, period.   They are somewhat more sensitive to environmental toxins (interesting link on plastics here:  http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/chemicals.html) which is relevant as I think health is a multi-factoral thing. 

 

edited for clarity


Edited by purslaine - 5/16/12 at 7:08pm
post #33 of 157
Thread Starter 
Believe it or not I'm a mom, just like you, and I love my kid and this issue is important to me, just like it is to you. I apologize for demeaning you. It was not my intent but intentional or not I'm sorry.
post #34 of 157

As someone who does NOT consider myself anti-vax (I wish there was another little icon that I can put under my name on here that says "I don't vax" rather than "say no to vax" because I don't believe that people need to say "no" to vax if they feel comfortable with them) but I am a non-vaxxer at this point in my life due to seriously looking at each vaccine and weighing the risk/benefit ratio for my own child.  I don't think vaxxes are evil and I don't think there is a conspiracy afoot.  I do think that the medical establishment is seriously flawed in many ways.  That is why other than not putting vaxxes into my child, I also usually choose alternative medicine rather than allopathic medicine for any health issues that arise.  I have no problem with people that vax as long as they did their own research and they think they are doing what is best for their own child.  I just wish they would have no problem with my choice.

 

So it is really hard for me to read some threads on here (like this one) where the two sides (very anti-vax and very pro-vax) are constantly fighting.  I really was interested in this question.  I want to know how common serious vaccine reactions are.  But reading all the hostile posts really puts me off.  I just wanted to throw that out there that (for both sides) you probably get lots of mamas coming on here really wanting to read some information to help them make the choice for THEIR family and they end up leaving with a bad taste in their mouth due to all the fighting and terse words.

post #35 of 157
Most health officials concede that only 1-10% of seve adverse effects ever get reported to VAERS. I believe the CDC has also used that figure? If someone finds it, please post it.

Anyway, it's clear that only a small fraction of those who reported those adverse effects ever took it as far as "vaccine court," as the stresses involved with that procedure, by all accounts, are absolutely horrific, Even those who have won their cases report that the process was extremely adversarial, and that they felt that THEY were on trial. Also, the statute of limitations on those cases ran out for some.

Even so, there have been about 2,000 cases of vaccine-induced brain damage that were admitted and compensated by "vaccine court.". And that's just in the US.

Even if we generously assume that those 2,000 cases represent 10% of similar cases, with the other 90% never having been reported, that suggests 20,000 cases of vaccine-induced brain damage.

If we assume those 2,000 cases represent only 1% of similar cases, that suggests 200,000 such cases.

And that's only in the US.

And that doesn't cover vaccine-induced asthma, diabetes, thyroid disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, MS, seizure disorders that DON'T result in permanent brain damage,etc.

This has been posted before:

“From: Bowman, David (HRSA) [mailto:DBowman@hrsa.gov]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:22 PM
To: 'dkirby@nyc.rr.com'
Subject: HRSA Statement

David,

In response to your most recent inquiry, HRSA has the following
statement:

The government has never compensated, nor has it ever been ordered to compensate, any case based on a determination that autism was actually caused by vaccines. We have compensated cases in which children exhibited an encephalopathy, or general brain disease. Encephalopathy may be accompanied by a medical progression of an array of symptoms including autistic behavior, autism, or seizures.

Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries may have shown signs of autism before the decision to compensate, or may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.

Regards,

David Bowman
Office of Communications
Health Resources and Services Administration
301-443-3376”
***********************************************
Note that HRSA freely admits that they don't even track how often vaccines cause autism, after admitting that HRSA knows that they do cause autism. This is dereliction of duty.
post #36 of 157
Thread Starter 
Nuku: I'm sure you're right. I am Sincerely interested in this topic, too. I think at least estimating the risk of serious adverse events is central to the vaccine decision. I hope we can get back on topic.
post #37 of 157
Thread Starter 
Taxi: I disagree with your interpretation of that email, but I guess that's no surprise. I appreciate the addition to the conversation around prevalence of severe reactions. I haven't heard the ten percent number before, but I wonder if it applies to serious reactions equally well as non serious ones. I can see 90% of people whose kids have swelling and fussiness not reporting it, I can't see 90% of people whose kids get brain damage not reporting it, but idk that just my thought.
post #38 of 157

I do not think we can figure out the number or percentage of reactions.   There is too much under-reporting and disregarding of reactions, but we do not know by how much.  We have no clue about possible long term side effects (or delayed side effects), as studies comparing unvaxxed to vaxxed do not exist.

 

That being said, I think there is some data around particular vaccines that might be useful

 

Example:  Separating the MMR from varicella is suspected to be safer ( http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/MMRV/MMRV_qa.html#6 ).  

 

I tried looking up other ways to vaccinate and reduce risk and got nowhere.  Most sites seem to paint all vaccines as safe, safe, safe or dangerous with a capital D.  I sometimes wish this issue was not so polarised.  For those who want to vax, it would be nice if one could find information on how to vax safely.

 

(another one:  consider skipping the tylenol before and after vaccines.  I am not sure if tylenol affect side effects, but it might affect effectiveness of the vaccine: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-5388197.html )

post #39 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 I can see 90% of people whose kids have swelling and fussiness not reporting it, I can't see 90% of people whose kids get brain damage not reporting it, but idk that just my thought.

 

If your child gets vaccine-induced seizures and/or encephalopathy, but the doctors and nurses tell you that everything's fine fine fine, and you're just a hysterical new mother over-reacting, and that it has nothing to do with the vaccines your child just got, how are you supposed to know to whom, how, and where to file a report if you don't even know for sure that he's reacting to the vaccine?

 

AAs has been mentioned many times on this forum, very few parents 10-20 years ago were ever given the "informed consent" forms before vaccination.  The forms given by our pediatrician (which were given by the nurse AFTER the child received the shots) only mentioned risk of fever, fussiness, and redness/swelling at the injection site.  That's it.  No mention of seizure, encephalopathy, brain damage, autoimmune reaction, etc. That seems to have been the standard back then.

 

In addition, starting in the late 80's, babies began receiving hep B vaccines a few hours after birth; mothers who had been through 1-2 days of labor and/or a C-section oftentimes didn't even know that their children had been vaccinated.  Mine was vaccinated against my written, pediatrician-approved request, AND without my permission.

 

So it's quite likely that infants who may have reacted to that very first hep B shot never had their reactions reported, as the parents may not have even known that their child was vaccinated that day.

post #40 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

If your child gets vaccine-induced seizures and/or encephalopathy, but the doctors and nurses tell you that everything's fine fine fine, and you're just a hysterical new mother over-reacting, and that it has nothing to do with the vaccines your child just got, how are you supposed to know to whom, how, and where to file a report if you don't even know for sure that he's reacting to the vaccine?

yeahthat.gif

 

I typed up a long response and it seems to have disappeared.

 

Basically, I was told for two years my daughter was not having seizures (she was). Then I was told they were not connected to the vaccinations (I believe they were ) 

 

I need to stop reading these threads - they are too frustrating.  I am not 'anti-vax', I can see the value in some vaccinations, in some situations.    However, I wish I w/h known more about the risks prior to vaccinating my children.  I wish I w/h known about my husband's medical history and reaction to vaccinations prior to vaccinating my children.  I should have been more educated and I should have stopped vaccinating as soon as I suspected a reaction - her life/health might have been much different.  I wish the doctors and other 'vaccine pushers' would stop discounting my experience.  I did not report my children's reactions because by the time I stopped listening to the doctors, time had passed and I did not keep good records and felt I could not make an accurate report.  Plus, I was overwhelmed with medical issues (time, energy, money, and emotional resources) so filing a claim was the last thing on my mind.

 

I do not know much about the 'tracking of doctor's visits' that Rrrrachel mentions.  However, I was told by a neurologist, since my children were premature,  my daughter's issues (epilepsy, autistic tendancies, etc.)  would be blamed on the prematurity, not the vaccines.  Even though she had no seizures in her entire NICU stay and the first seizure was the day after vaccination.  (btw, my children were vaccinated at actual age instead of adjusted age - another mistake I allowed to happen.)

 

The 'reaction' is only a part of the damage - there are the seizures and the change in who she is (whether from the seizures or the anti-seizure meds).  If my daughter died as a result of a seizure, or as a result of pancreas or liver failure from the Depakote (anti-seizure med), etc...it w/n/b recorded as a vaccine related death.  I believe, after sitting in waiting rooms and talking with parents for years at several large children's hospitals...that my daughter's story is not that uncommon.  But of course, that it is all anecdotal.

 

I guess this was sort of long too.  I hope my frustrated rambling made sense.

 

 

 

edited for spelling


Edited by dbsam - 5/17/12 at 6:18am
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