How common are serious vaccine reactions? - Page 3

[slmommy]

dbsam, 

Rrrrrachel, you keep bringing up VSD here, did you read Simpsonwood yet? It explains quite well there how VSD data is collected, (at least until 2001), and also discusses the positive association they found between # of vax/age received and certain neuro outcomes.

I wonder if parents realize they are being included in VSD?

Anyway, I know there is another thread about anecdotes right now, but I have to say, anecdotes like dbsam's and taxi's scare the pants off of me, because if your child has reaction/injury, it's pretty clear that you may not be listened to, not believed, have problems finding any help, and be encouraged/strong armed into furthering harm to your child with repeat vaccination.

...and then belittled by some extreme members of pro-vax community to top it off, when you speak about your experience....

It's funny, there is another thread on the birth boards about how many midwives have no malpractice insurance, and some posters are stating how irresponsible that is, and that if a baby were injured due to mw negligence, there would be no funds to pay for care of child. But that is essentially what happens when we vax our kids... if you have reaction/injury you are left trying to find the time and money to try to heal/minimize/help your child in a potentially hostile environment. (oh and please, don't anyone bring up VICP like that is the great solution, many nations do not have vaccine courts either)

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

It's that among kids I know that are grade-school age, most have some kind of chronic health issue or developmental delay.  Asthma, food allergies, autoimmune disorders, ASD, SPD, ADD/ADHD, severe speech delays.  None of my son's many friends are "healthy".  

A fair point. It's hard to know what is causing these problems.

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

[Rrrrrachel]

I have read parts of simpsonwood, I haven't sat down and read all 100+ pages, no. I already said on a different thread that I disagree with some of their conclusions given what I see in the charts, but I dont have access to the actual data, obviously. It certainly doesn't seem like a very strong correlation from what I can see.

Saying that neurological issues are correlated with more vaccine doses (setting aside that the real correlation may be with age or some other variable) doesn't really help me know how common those conditions are. The issue here is not whether vaccines cause those things but how common serious side effects really are. You could have a positive correlation even though there were only a dozen or so instances out of thousands.

It's my understanding that yes, parents have to give consent to be included in VSD, although I can't remember where I read that so take it with a grain of salt.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

I think it becomes more apparent as they get older.  Very few of my son's friends his age were diagnosed with these issues years ago, but now that they are all turning 7, they are getting diagnoses left and right, and in retrospect, had symptoms all along.  Again - I'm not saying that I blame vaccines 100% for this, but it should give parents and health care providers pause when they see just how many children are suffering.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

I wonder if there are "pockets" of high rates of unhealthy children around the country, similar to the "pockets" of autistic children.  For example, the rate of autism in Brick Township, New Jersey, is something like 1 in 23 boys.  The autism rate in Brick Township has been consistently far above the national average rate for many years.

Are there areas of the country where there are far more unhealthy children than the national average?

Just anecdotally, it would seem that my area has more than Super-Single-Mama's area, as she knows very, very few unhealthy children, and all my children have numerous classmates with asthma, reflux, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, food allergies, thyroid disease, celiac disease, etc.

I also wonder if these pockets or clusters (if they exist) would happen to be the same areas that have high autism rates?

One possible common causal factor in both autoimmune disease and autism is vitamin D deficiency--which happens to be a causal factor for vaccine reaction as well.

[Rrrrrachel]

And wasn't simpsonwood all about thimerosol, a point which is now moot, anyway?

[Rrrrrachel]

Could you point me to the study that found vitamin d deficiency is a causal factor for vaccine reactions? I'd like to read it.

I don't know if there are pockets of unhealthy children or not, but it wouldn't be a huge shock. Toxins definitely vary across the country, some places have more lead in the soil or for historical reasons have been exposed to some other toxins that persists in the environment. Asthma and allergies are less common among kids that live on farms, etc. our individual experiences will certainly vary depending on where we live and the circles that we move in and aren't necessarily generalizable to the population at large.

[Taximom5]

There's also the disturbing trend of children--even extremely young children--being diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, Oppositional disorders, narcolepsy, sleep disorders, and, most disturbingly, psychiatric disorders.  One of my son's preschool classmates was diagnosed with depression and bipolar disorder at age 4.  4!!!!!!!      His mother let him play video games all day, never let him outside to play, never would let him have playdates, and fed him junk food--and then wondered why he was out of control.

One of my colleague's daughters was diagnosed with depression and bipolar disorder in her teens, was on meds for 2 years, had terrible, terrible reactions to the meds, lost an entire year of high school--and recently found out she'd been misdiagnosed all along.  She had autoimmune thyroid disease, not depression and bipolar disorder.

These are some very disturbing trends that may have some relationship to the subject of unhealthy children.

[Rrrrrachel]

I wonder how many cases of add and ADHD are related to eating crap food and getting no or little exercise and too much screen time (which we know can impact the brain). I'm by no means saying all, some kids really need the medication, I just wonder how many. Same for the other disorders.

But that's neither here nor there, really.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

There's also the disturbing trend of children--even extremely young children--being diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, Oppositional disorders, narcolepsy, sleep disorders, and, most disturbingly, psychiatric disorders.  One of my son's preschool classmates was diagnosed with depression and bipolar disorder at age 4.  4!!!!!!!      His mother let him play video games all day, never let him outside to play, never would let him have playdates, and fed him junk food--and then wondered why he was out of control.

One of my colleague's daughters was diagnosed with depression and bipolar disorder in her teens, was on meds for 2 years, had terrible, terrible reactions to the meds, lost an entire year of high school--and recently found out she'd been misdiagnosed all along.  She had autoimmune thyroid disease, not depression and bipolar disorder.

These are some very disturbing trends that may have some relationship to the subject of unhealthy children.

That is disturbing.

Among my son's friends that all have diagnoses, I know their families very well.  They are all stable, mostly upper middle class, SAHMs, well educated, fed healthily at least most of the time, etc.  And we live in San Diego (all over the county), so all the kids get lots of sunshine, all year long.  In this limited case of anecdotes, it's not an issue of low socioeconomic status or family instability where the kids are getting misdiagnosed because of temporary emotional issues.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I wonder how many cases of add and ADHD are related to eating crap food and getting no or little exercise and too much screen time (which we know can impact the brain). I'm by no means saying all, some kids really need the medication, I just wonder how many. Same for the other disorders.
But that's neither here nor there, really.

I do agree with that to an extent.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I wonder how many cases of add and ADHD are related to eating crap food and getting no or little exercise and too much screen time (which we know can impact the brain). I'm by no means saying all, some kids really need the medication, I just wonder how many. Same for the other disorders.
But that's neither here nor there, really.

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

I do agree with that to an extent.

Me, too.

[Mosaic]

I've removed some posts that are over-the-line and attacking other members. Please reign it in.

Also, I want to remind you that the "Researching the Vaccine Decision?" subforum was specifically created with newbies in mind, members who are just now beginning to look into the vaccine decision and are looking for a place to begin. We have long known that the vaccination forum is one of the more opinionated portions of MDC, and it can be intimidating for people just dipping their toes in and learning about the issues.

This area is NOT off-limits to longtime members; on the contrary, we need your expertise to make this work! However, there seem to be some personal/personality/ideology conflicts that are spilling into this forum and making this area less-than-welcoming for folks new to the debate. Please think twice when deciding thread placement or crafting your response to a thread. It may be possible that this subforum just won't work like we had intended, and we can start a separate thread about that if you feel it's needed. But for now, I'd love your help in keeping this subforum, and all areas of Vax, cordial and informative.

[Rrrrrachel]

I spent some more time with simpsonwood this morning. I still haven't read all of it but I'm up to page sixty, and I went back to the graphs at the end which gave me some great numbers, actually. Of the 110,000 kids they ended up with in their cohort, there were 1743 cases of "neurological developmental disabilities," autism, sleep disorders, various mood disorders, delays, etc. that's around one percent of the children involved, if we assume worst case scenario each diagnosis was for a different kid (probably not the case, but we're talking at worst here), which means the upper cap for developing a neurological issue would be around 1%. That might be a huge overestimate or a small overestimate, but it's something. If you break it down into individual cases, the risk of autism would be at most 67/110000 or .006%, and attention deficit would be 158/110000 or around .1%.

[littlec]

Rachel, your initial question is a very important one. "how common are serious vaccine reactions", but before we can answer that, there need to be more people like you who actually WANT to know. Most people want to know how uncommon they are, so they can feel more confident in their choice to vaccinate. I know that's what I was looking for when i started researching. We have to demand better tracking systems, we have to LISTEN to the people like taximom who are telling us their experience, we have to have doctors who are trained in this area and willing to admit when a reaction occurs. My daughter's reaction has been denied by every doctor we've seen, except one. They all said the same thing, "reactions like that are one in a million...it could be from the vaccines, but most likely isn't." The end. Case closed. I cannot get anyone to go any farther, even though she's one of the youngest children diagnosed with her issue (at least in my area).

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

So, I would assume this has influenced you in some way--you don't know many people who are unhealthy, chronically ill, or vaccine injured. You don't see it on a regular basis, I'm guessing.

Some people do know others with chronic health problems, and yes, even vaccine injuries. Others do not know many people with these problems. Can this influence our medical decisions? Of course it can! 

Life experiences do play a role in our health decisions. For all of you who don't know any vaccine injured people, it might be easier for you to overlook the problem. For those who have witnessed a reaction, or know someone who has suffered, it is impossible to overlook the problem.

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by littlec 

Rachel, your initial question is a very important one. "how common are serious vaccine reactions", but before we can answer that, there need to be more people like you who actually WANT to know. Most people want to know how uncommon they are, so they can feel more confident in their choice to vaccinate. I know that's what I was looking for when i started researching. We have to demand better tracking systems, we have to LISTEN to the people like taximom who are telling us their experience, we have to have doctors who are trained in this area and willing to admit when a reaction occurs. My daughter's reaction has been denied by every doctor we've seen, except one. They all said the same thing, "reactions like that are one in a million...it could be from the vaccines, but most likely isn't." The end. Case closed. I cannot get anyone to go any farther, even though she's one of the youngest children diagnosed with her issue (at least in my area).

I'm sure that's frustrating. I agree doctors need better training in spotting vaccine reactions. It's a misapplication of the statistics to dismiss a case like that just because it's unlikely, uncommon isn't the same as impossible!

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

I wonder if there are "pockets" of high rates of unhealthy children around the country, similar to the "pockets" of autistic children.  For example, the rate of autism in Brick Township, New Jersey, is something like 1 in 23 boys.  The autism rate in Brick Township has been consistently far above the national average rate for many years.

Are there areas of the country where there are far more unhealthy children than the national average?
 

I also wonder about the rate of autism in NJ - could it be that NJ has more services available to those with autism? Do parents "flock" (not the word I want to use, but the best I can come up with atm) to places where their children can get good services, and educational benefits? This obviously wouldn't be an option for some, but if you were in a nearby state or county, and realized that better options were available if you moved a little ways away would you? I seem to think that parents move mountains for their children whenever possible, so I wouldn't be surprised if that explained a bit of that phenomenon, but it may not be that way at all - I don't know.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I find that interesting Bokonon. I don't know too many children who are "unhealthy" and know very very few who have chronic health problems.

So, I would assume this has influenced you in some way--you don't know many people who are unhealthy, chronically ill, or vaccine injured. You don't see it on a regular basis, I'm guessing.

Some people do know others with chronic health problems, and yes, even vaccine injuries. Others do not know many people with these problems. Can this influence our medical decisions? Of course it can! 

Life experiences do play a role in our health decisions. For all of you who don't know any vaccine injured people, it might be easier for you to overlook the problem. For those who have witnessed a reaction, or know someone who has suffered, it is impossible to overlook the problem.

Before my son was born, I did my research. Probably the same research you, and most others on MDC, have done. We simply came to different conclusions. I realize that people do know people with chronic health conditions - I know people who do as well. Just not young children with chronic health problems. I have a family history of diabetes, so I try to eat healthy and take preventative measures so that I don't get it. But it doesn't inform everything about the way I live my life, and my family members who have had diabetes did not develop it until they were older than I am now, so I'm not worried at this time about my young son getting it.

There is no family history of vaccine reactions, no family history of any autoimmune disorders, very very little family history of diabetes, and people in my family tend to live very long health lives (I have a photo of my great-great-great-great-great-grandmother walking in her garden at 105 in 1925 (yes, she was born in 1820), since her not a single woman in my family has died before their 85th birthday. Perhaps I am just incredibly lucky to have great genetics?

[nukuspot]

Two things: 1.). I was raised my whole life in a town near Brick twp NJ. I can say for sure that there are no special services there. It's just a leafy middle class semi suburban NJ town. Nothing special. No great medical centers or snything to speak of. It's also quite expensive COL there (as in most of non inner city NJ) do I couldn't see families just up and moving there, they couldn't afford it.

2.). I just read in a British newspaper (The Week) that 48% of middle school children in the UK are considered special needs due to learning or health issues. That blew me away. NOT blaming it in vaxxes here. But it's so frightening to me that I am sure it will be almost impossible to figure out what is causing do many kids to have mental or health issues in our Western society. It is probably a mix of tons of factors, environmental pollutants, bad nutrition, lack of early and extended breastfeeding, etc. But as a mama I don't feel like I need to add one more toxin to my child who has to live and grow in this world. Aluminum, formaldehyde, glutarhyde, antibiotic residue, cow serum...I don't want to inject this list of chemicals and organic matter into her growing body which is also simultaneously being pounded on all sides with pollution in the air and water and pesticides in food, etc. I would love to be able to protect her and make sure she is prevented from illness. But I can't justify it (for me, not telling you what I think others should do) at the sake of what I see is her future health. I truly believe all toxins have the capability to cause illness in the body. And vaccines are so full of them. So far my child seems healthy and I want to try to keep her that way. I don't want her to get a VPD (well she's already had rotavirus and flu...I mean a REAL VPD) but I also want to make sure she has the best chance possible to not develop long term health issues either. So I weigh the options and take my chances. Like someone said, I'm glad that I have this choice, privileged as it is.