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post #101 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evermom View Post

Again, I never said vaccines are to blame for all allergies. It's a theory as to why there is an increase in peanut allergies. One of those articles in the links also mentioned yeast protein being in some vaccines. There's another allergen for you. The vaccine industry hasn't been stellar about making their ingredients known, considering them trade secrets. My own unvaccinated ds had/has soy and dairy allergies. Mild, fortunately. I even delayed giving him dairy until he was one to minimize the possibility of allergies due to an immature digestive tract since I was assuming he was genetically predisposed to having allergies due to his family history.

 

There is no one cause of allergies. However, like autism, there has been a crazy increase in frequency and it makes sense to investigate possibilities rather than just saying it can't be helped, nothing being done to these children could possibly be increasing their risk. Then, there is also that phenomenon where a body can handle a certain amount of exposure to an allergen, but when it is compounded by exposure to another allergen, the body has a stronger reaction. I can't eat feta cheese during ragweed season without a reaction although I can eat it just fine other times of the year. Allergies are complicated.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying vaccines were to blame for all allergies, and I certainly know that allergies, like autism, are complicated and not easily or simply explained. I was only offering some critique of the book itself. 

post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

you missed my point- I was referring to a couple that had NO children- their own property- they are NOT responsible if other would trespass and drown- get it? people do not take personal responsible for lots of things and expect other to do it for them-----if your child wonders into another property YOU should be responsible and watch your child- same goes with your child leaving food in public places- your responsibility to clean up after YOUR child- not make others do it

 

 

another example - 

 

 

not taking personal responsibility - expecting OTHERS to clean up after you

 

 

would love to see the litter bug ad brought back- some people are pigs and feel the world needs to clean up after them

 

expecting other to do your job

First, I have to say that this has been a thoroughly amusing thread to follow. 

 

Second, with this last comment I am now totally confused.  Is the "personal responsibility" in question that of the allergic child's parents to keep said child safe?  (And how, I'm wondering, should said parent do that if they can't solicit the kindness/courtesy of strangers?)  Or is it each parent's personal responsibility to clean up their child's messes?  (i.e. Wiping peanut-butter hands before the child smears it all over the slide). 

 

Thirdly, I'm not sure how this thread became all about what we are "responsible" for or "expected" to do, when it started as a very thoughtful question from someone who WANTED to do right by the peanut-allergy people.  Voluntarily.  The fact that you are not required to gate your pool doesn't change the awful, horrendous pain you would feel if someone else's toddler drowned in it.  And how  might your child feel if they inadvertently caused another child to have a life-threatening allergic reaction?  There are other reasons why we do things aside from "expectations."  

post #103 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

gates are not required in my area- nothing

 

it definitely is not required in all areas-parents were just held responsible last year in my area for a toddler that wondered off not the homeowner 

 

if I have poison ivy growing on my property and your child is allergic to it and you are not watching your child and they trespass YOU are responsible! and people do grow peanuts not just farmers

 

parents are the ones that must take personal responsibility not pushing it onto others- most food so far not illegal

Gates may not be required by statute, but children are a special class under the law and if they do wander on your property and are hurt or killed by a potentially dangerous condition on your property, you can bet that you would be potentially liable both under American and British tort law ("common law" as referred to by us attorneys).  Super-Single-Mama is right, there's that pesky "attractive nuisance doctrine" out there.  It was something created under common law and applies to children.  The theory is as old as the hills, not some new tort idea.  Why?  Because society recognized that that there is a class of individuals who may be injured by our negligence in our failure to fence off dangerous conditions.  Why do you think construction companies build fences around their sites?  Not to protect from loitering or the theft of backhoes, but to protect children from injury.

 

I'm all for personal responsibility, don't get me wrong, but I also think that we have a duty as citizens to take reasonable precautions to protect children who may venture onto our property or who may be affected by our actions in public.  That's just reasonable human behavior in my opinion.  I take reasonable precautions so that others (particularly children) are not at risk if they venture into my personal space.  The argument that we are absolved from our own responsibilities to society because "its not my problem or responsibility" is a hideous concept to me.  I have no patience for that attitude.  I really don't.

 

We all have a human responsibility to protect others from injury when dangers are within our control.  I'm not asking that people build fortresses around themselves or their property.  We live in a society where responsibility is a two-way street.  This isn't brain science, it's common sense.


Edited by CatsCradle - 5/23/12 at 5:40pm
post #104 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbyGrant View Post

This is getting way off topic. Perhaps someone should start a thread in health and healing or vaccinations about vaccines and the increase in autism and allergies.
 

And one about property owner liability, lol. But seriously, what would be the fun in that? smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCVeg View Post

I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying vaccines were to blame for all allergies, and I certainly know that allergies, like autism, are complicated and not easily or simply explained. I was only offering some critique of the book itself. 

Gotcha thumb.gif

post #105 of 112
Quote:
We all have a human responsibility to protect others from injury when dangers are within our control.  I'm not asking that people build fortresses around themselves or their property.  We live in a society where responsibility is a two-way street.  This isn't brain science, it's common sense.

 

 

If you are on your way home from work ( ex. and you work in a bakery and have gluten all over your clothing, or a restaurant/bar and you have peanut "dust", thai satay splatter, etc) are your obliged to have removed your clothing prior to leaving to protect those you may encounter and or can cause danger to on your way home? Same if you have ivy and it doesn't bother you- must you remove it to protect others that wonder into your yard? 

 

Responsibility is two way but where you draw the line is what counts- there are certain requirements/law but there are lots of areas such as with allergies you are not required to protect other- where is that line? This thread seems to make those who don't take allergy precautions the baddies here.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Gates may not be required by statute

as with this, in my state, we can't enforce corporations to do so, asking citizens to do the same is mute- we have areas where these pits are within walking distance from homes (in towns) and given the situation as a Commonwealth, we err on the side of personal responsibility in most requirements-most of these pits are 500 to 1000+ feet deep and are right in communities and have been for over 200 years- every area is different-only working quarries are gated to protect equipment - children were taken last summer from a family because one drown in the bath tub- parents were not watching and it was deemed they did not take the responsibility needed in the situation, you can have a large ponds (back yard fish ponds are deep enough to drown a child), again you do not need to gate it-very little difference- some people only  think "pool" and don't get the 4ft fish pond is there too! 

post #106 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

Responsibility is two way but where you draw the line is what counts- there are certain requirements/law but there are lots of areas such as with allergies you are not required to protect other- where is that line? This thread seems to make those who don't take allergy precautions the baddies here.

 

I'll let the courts and the legislature draw the bright lines.  Where the lines aren't so bright, I'll look inside myself and ask myself:  can my actions or inactions potentially harm others?  Is there something small and reasonable that I can do to prevent harm?  For me, it is about doing what I feel is right, whether someone or some law is dictating it or not.  Of course there are going to be levels of varying responsibility that people feel toward others.  I just know what feels right for me. 

post #107 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

I'll let the courts and the legislature draw the bright lines.  Where the lines aren't so bright, I'll look inside myself and ask myself:  can my actions or inactions potentially harm others?  Is there something small and reasonable that I can do to prevent harm?  For me, it is about doing what I feel is right, whether someone or some law is dictating it or not.  Of course there are going to be levels of varying responsibility that people feel toward others.  I just know what feels right for me. 

Exactly. I don't give up my seat on the subway to a pregnant woman or small child because I "have to"; I do it because it's the right thing to do. Likewise, I don't eat on the bus or let my kid run around with food and make a mess of public playgrounds--not only because of food allergies, but because I don't see why other children should have to play in my child's mess. 

 

No one has suggested that those who don't take allergy precautions are "baddies." Allergies are simply not on most people's radars, and those of us who have food-allergic kids GET THAT, really we do. The original point of the thread was to 1) ask what people who ARE sensitive to other children's food allergies do and 2) to see what reasonable precautions might be most useful. No one said, "Everyone must do x, y, and z or they are scum!" The thread devolved only when people who DO wish to take precautions were attacked. 

post #108 of 112

Okay, now I've finally read the whole thread. I don't worry about it in peanut-filled public spaces (playground, where I always see pbj sandwiches; museums with pb-allowed lunch areas; camps that allow nuts; airplanes). We normally eat a lot of peanut butter, as a good vegetarian protein source. 

 

But, I don't do overtly-peanut-containing lunches for my kids when they go to school/homeschool coop, nor breakfasts with nuts on the days they have school/coop. The fact that there is a known peanut-allergic kid, though not severely allergic, at coop makes me more vigilant as well. I don't make sure every single thing in my kids' lunches is guaranteed completely free of any trace though. It seems like everything says "May be manufactured on equipment used to process peanuts, tree nuts, etc." and if it doesn't say it CONTAINS peanuts or peanut oil, etc., I don't worry about it. The parent of the allergic child at coop says that's fine, as her son has to actually eat peanuts himself to react, not just be near them. If his allergy was more severe, I imagine we'd try to have specific clothes and special food for the days we did activities with him.

 

When a child that I know has an allergy comes over to play, I make sure we have peanut-free products for him to eat and my kids eat the same snack that he does. When he was coming for a birthday party, I made sure everything in the cake was peanut-free and that most of the food was totally peanut-free/cross contamination-free. (I believe 1-2 of the snacks had that "may be manufactured on equipment also used to process nuts" and I just warned he and his mother of the labels and he chose other stuff to eat). For the cake, it took a couple of days to make and decorate, so I kept my kids from eating nuts for all those days and the day of the party.

 

I don't think I'd allow a highly peanut allergic child who reacted to any residue or airborne exposure come to our house, though, because we eat so much peanut butter normally and I would worry that some could be somewhere unexpected. 


Edited by LitMom - 5/24/12 at 8:15pm
post #109 of 112

Ds has allergies, a lot of them, but not to nuts and nothing that will kill him. 

 

But I rarely give him anything peanut (except whole peanuts at baseball games).  If he has other nuts, he usually eats them at home, and he pretty much always washes up after eating because he is messy!

At public places, I usually bring fruit or veg for snacks, but occasionally he will ask for pistachios or almonds.  If he has either of those I have him wash his hands before returning to play equipment, and I make sure all the shells get put in the trash.   

He has friends who are VERY allergic to nuts so I make sure he doesn't have any at all on days we are going to play with them. 

 

 

I do think people should be aware, especialy when what they are eating could kill someone.   I get people spraying that spray-on sunscreen near me without moving to an empty area and that stuff makes my throat close up and gives ds a rash, its really awful! 

post #110 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by leighi123 View Post

 

 

 

I do think people should be aware, especialy when what they are eating could kill someone.   I get people spraying that spray-on sunscreen near me without moving to an empty area and that stuff makes my throat close up and gives ds a rash, its really awful! 

And scents!  They give me an awful headache.  I know they are not the same as nut allergies….

 

None-the-less…I think the root of the problem is the same…people not acknowledging or caring that they live in communities and that their actions can negatively affect someone.  

post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post

When the older one was in preschool, there was a kid there with a bad peanut allergy, and I wouldn't let her have anything peanut related until after she was in school each day. So no peanut butter on toast for breakfast, for instance.

yup this was us too. one of the kids in dd's daycare was deathly allergic to avocado and strawberries - dd's fav. food. we had them only on fri and saturday. 

 

because of my exposure to this if dd ate pbj i'd not serve it before the park. however dd hates pbj - always has so wasnt an issue. but i never made her an egg sandwich at the park either. 

 

we are not so much into nuts. a bit of almond and cashews and walnuts and if and when budget allows hazelnut.

 

instead we eat a lot of beans - a huge variety of beans. 

post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

I'll let the courts and the legislature draw the bright lines.  Where the lines aren't so bright, I'll look inside myself and ask myself:  can my actions or inactions potentially harm others?  Is there something small and reasonable that I can do to prevent harm?  For me, it is about doing what I feel is right, whether someone or some law is dictating it or not.  Of course there are going to be levels of varying responsibility that people feel toward others.  I just know what feels right for me. 

I would have had your philosophy too. however i was working for a private legislative company and heard about a elem. boy dying in school in maine coz the state refused to do anything about peanut less snack (meaning everything - peanut oil, proccessed in facility that has used peanuts) being sold in school. the boy ate a teenie bit from a friend who had one processed in a nut using facility. he was not the first death and the govt did nothing and i watched the bill die. 

 

i wasnt a mom then. however i was moved v. deeply by this. 

 

esp. after i heard that some kids actually lose their critical allergy when they are older if they are kept in a completely specific allergy world - i became even more careful. 

 

plus watching my friend carry her epipen to playdates was reason enough (however for them it was bees - not pbj)

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