I'm confused. The alternative phrasing stik posted upthread is still debate, just nice respectful debate. That wouldn't work in a no debate forum. So are we proposing we can't debate or we have to play nice?
- topicVaccinationstagged by System, 5/21/12
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Vaccination Forum Guidelines Reminder and Discussion - Page 13post #242 of 3335/24/12 at 8:04pm
- Respectful debate would be an improvement, if we could manage it.
- I tend to think of "I feel" statements as irrefutable. You can't deny that a person feels the way they feel. So if we stick to explaining how we feel about sources and don't try to force others to share our feelings, we should be OK. I hope.
I posted the thread. Also a sparkly little explanation of my feelings about the MMWR. Go post people! Or failing that, go hit like.post #243 of 3335/24/12 at 8:10pm
Okay, what I don't understand here is this: how can you have a research forum without discussing the validity of the research that is presented? Just links with no context to interpret them are not very useful to people who are new to the subject, and I think this is really counterproductive too because I feel it's important to know that research needs to be interpreted. And this interpretation is obviously going to turn into a debate. So I'm on the side of those who are opposed to the research forum.post #244 of 3335/24/12 at 8:36pmpost #245 of 3335/24/12 at 8:50pmerigeron we post links with our own commentary. Someone can post back saying something like. I don't know if that's true... here's why. The initial poster doesn't not get bent out of shape but looks at the new information and ponders for a moment. Says thanks for your addition. I still feel that my original thoughts stand. The poster that added information to the thread can say "understood". RESPECT!post #246 of 3335/25/12 at 3:33ampost #247 of 3335/25/12 at 3:42ampost #248 of 3335/25/12 at 3:50ampost #249 of 3335/25/12 at 3:51ampost #250 of 3335/25/12 at 4:39ampost #251 of 3335/25/12 at 5:14ampost #252 of 3335/25/12 at 6:12amThread StarterI am not anti-debate at all, but I suggested that the Research forum be discussion=yes, debate=no, support-only=no. As a mod, I have no idea exactly how I'd draw the line there; but the goal of this forum is to be informative without being intimidating. Debate is intimidating to many.
I like the idea of posting links with mini summaries, and go ahead and point out potential limitations from the get-go. For example, "this study has a limited sample size", "this study was partially funded by Merck", "this study contradicts older studies", etc. Remember, for those new to this issue, they may not want to spend weeks following all of these links and processing research papers. Then again, half of the challenge is finding the information, but the other half of it is knowing what to do with it. People who aren't used to reading scientific papers may need guidance knowing what to look for.
I would also LOVE to see a Vaccines 101. I'm talking BASIC:
post #253 of 3335/25/12 at 6:26am
- What vaxes are on the mandatory schedule, and when
- What vaxes aren't on the schedule but are "recommended" to certain populations (flu shot for pregnant women, etc.)
- Links to ingredients and info sheets
- Description of VADs, symptoms, etc.
- A summary of major players (and their COIs/perspectives/etc.: Sears, Offit, Wakefield)
- Common questions, concerns, points of research, and a summary of major sources out there (Autism, herd immunity, mercury, aluminum, etc.)
- Abbreviations explained (CDC, VAD, DTP, OPV, WHO, etc.)
If "This study has limited sample size" etc. is not considered debate, then I'd be happy as long as different input can be added.
Honestly, I don't care about feelings ("I feel" statements). We can be respectful without everything being generated from our groove. There's nothing disrespectful about saying "This study has limited sample size" and then someone else saying "The study that is said to contradict this one has an even smaller sample size."
I don't really care about just a list of links, I can find stuff on Google myself. What is invaluable is the ability to read through input on both sides and being able to weigh it, read the links with a critical eye (helped by the experience of others), and come to my own conclusions.post #254 of 3335/25/12 at 6:30am
Quote:Originally Posted by Mosaic
I am not anti-debate at all, but I suggested that the Research forum be discussion=yes, debate=no, support-only=no. As a mod, I have no idea exactly how I'd draw the line there; but the goal of this forum is to be informative without being intimidating. Debate is intimidating to many.
So I'm really not trying to be a PITA just trying to clarify what's going on here...is this just a suggestion for those of us reading along here or is this going to be part of the forum guidelines. Either way, I think it might be problematic for members and mods to figure out where the line is between discussion and debate. I can't quite figure out what discussion without debate would look like other than everyone agreeing.
I think this could get tricky, especially with autism. I'd rather not see it.post #255 of 3335/25/12 at 6:40am
Mosaic - thanks for explaining your thinking. I think that a lot of those suggestions would result in problems, as the viewpoints about the different COI etc. are quite radically different.....
I'm confused about (at least!) two things still....
1. Am I allowed to say "that science is wrong" when it is wrong? Between scientists we do that all the time, and we often even tell people they don't understand things..... on here it seems that's not allowed?
2. If I see an interesting thread on the "I'm not Vaccinating" forum am I "allowed" as a pro-vax mother to post my opinion there, or should I be keeping out of it? For example I take the thread which is at the top right now asking for opinions on a video produced by WHO about an increase of polio in some countries.post #256 of 3335/25/12 at 6:59amThread StarterWe really need to step back and remember that the research forum is guided to those TOTALLY new to the issues. They may google "vaccines and autism" and end up here, so I think it would be helpful to give newbies a summary of the issue: a summary of where the issue came from and an explaination of why it's a contentious topic. Same thing with COI: you don't have to agree with it to understand why others might. MANY research papers have disclosures at the bottom saying that they were partially funded by xyz, and people may interpret that different ways.
Oops, I have a meeting to go to... I'll be back to answer your questions!post #257 of 3335/25/12 at 7:08ampost #258 of 3335/25/12 at 7:08am
I guess I just don't like the idea of that kind of stuff being on some kind of relatively static list with no discussion. It would have no context. And who writes the summary of why it's contentious? It would be really difficult to make it neutral and show all side. And, if people have google, then I don't see what a list here like that is going to do for them anyway. I'm not trying to be snarly here at all, I just have some serious misgivings about this, again especially when it comes to something as contentious as autism.post #259 of 3335/25/12 at 7:10am
I would love if we could talk about issues. My point was it could get tricky to make a list of issues and why they are issues.post #260 of 3335/25/12 at 7:14am
Saying something like this-- "You totally can find any crazy thing to support any crazy idea on the internet, and my area of study is nothing scientific, so I can probably be easily fooled by plausible-sounding information (if you don't trust Offit, for example) " would probably be best if left OFF of the research forum.
In the regular Vaccination forum, it would fit right in.
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