The case for vaccination - Page 6

[AbbyGrant]

      Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I am not sure why you mentioned education.  I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

You can follow the vaccine schedule if you want.  As a non-vaxxer, I do not really care if you choose to vax or not. I understand people can look at the same research and come to different conclusion for their family.   I care, deeply, that people do not feel forced to vax and that people can make an informed choice on the matter.  

She was posting some of the reasons she vaccinates on a thread about a case for vaccination. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by telling her she can follow the schedule if she wants and that you don't care what she does.   

ETA -  I noticed you went back and changed "you" to "individual" later which makes it sound a bit better. 

Edited by AbbyGrant - 6/3/12 at 5:32pm

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

      Quote:

She was posting some of the reasons she vaccinates on a thread about a case for vaccination. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by telling her she can follow the schedule if she wants and that you don't care what she does.   

I am not going to argue with you, Abby.

She brought up education and that seems odd on this thread so I asked for clarity.

The rest I thought I was clear on, and if I am not, oh well…she can ask for clarity.  

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I am not going to argue with you, Abby.

She brought up education and that seems odd on this thread so I asked for clarity.

The rest I thought I was clear on, and if I am not, oh well…she can ask for clarity.  

I'm not looking for an argument with you about it. You seemed dismissive and argumentative which seemed unnecessary given what was posted. That was all I really had to say.

[Imakcerka]

Abby Kathy.  This could easily be settled with a dance off.  GO!

[AbbyGrant]

[SweetSilver]

[shiningpearl]

Originally Posted by pers 

No, chickenpox is not a particularly scary disease, but that does not mean it is not worth trying to prevent.  More than a hundred kids used to die a year from the disease - is that too few to bother trying to save?  

Can you please find me the information that says 100 KIDS used to die a year from it.  I have looked at statisics for it and yes, there were 100 deaths (on average), but they never said the ages.  From what I've been able to find, most of the deaths where in adults.  So to give a child the vaccine when they can handle them better and then have the chance that it will wear off when they are an adult does not seem like a good trade off.

I had one dose of the vaccine as an adult 2004 (insurance didn't pay for vaccines for adults), I contracted chicken pox this year, It was NOT FUN, and I'm not even really talking about the itching.  I felt like death and was terrified because I knew of the complications as an adult.  My children contracted it from me, they where really only miserable for 1 maybe 2 days, they had a mom who could take care of them, and cuddle with them,  apply treatment to them and help make them feel better.  I was blessed enough that my mother was able to come and help take care of my children while I was sick, because I couldn't take care of my kids, and she did help apply calamine to my back.  But I honestly feel sorry for this next generation who have not had CP when they have children, because even by giving their children the vaccine they could contract CP themselves.  The next 10-15 year are going to be interesting in that regard. 

BTW, my daughter had the stomach flu a week after having CP and said the stomach flu was worse.

[tonttu]

Okay , just in case the " who loves their kid and who doesn´t " comment was directed to me , I am going to rephrase it now and then I hope , the last person reading this , will understand , what I am saying !

Every Mother loves her children , and every Mother wants , what is best for her children . For me ( personally and no one else ) , vaccination is an important and vital part of their health care . I don´t vaccinate against everything , p . e . flu vacc is a waste of time in my opinion and after the research , I did on the subject .

And yes , I am a University educated , intelligent person , who does not simply follow doctor´s orders . I research decisions and base them on cold , hard facts , that is why I vaccinate .

Is there a risk , yes , but life has risks !

Does it help others by creating herd immunity ? Yes , and even though , I based this decision on the benefit of my own family first , if it helps others by extinguishing potentially lethal or at the least painful , debilitating diseases , that is even better !

Now , if another Mother feels , that by vaccinating her children , she puts them at risk , then that is her decision , and I don´t critizise that , but I expect the same courtesy given to me ! 

After all , this was a pro - vac OP , not yet ANOTHER boxing match of who is right and who isn´t , and the OP gave us some very interesting research findings , that only make my opinion about the value of vaccines stronger !  

Again , that is MY PERSONAL opinion and if somebody else feels insulted by it , I can´t help it !   

Besides , saying that CP is not a scary disease is a big understatement , as is saying that only adults suffer from it . My oldest daughter got it from her older brother , when she was 7 months old and while he had it over with after a few days , she almost died and was gravely ill for many weeks ( even though I was bf and had very high immunity against it that was checked by a blood test a few months earlier )  .

So , needless to say , when my 2 youngst were born and th vaccine against CP was available by that point , as soon as they were old enough , I had them vaccinated , since even only partial immunity against it and them getting it in a milder form is a lot better for me , than taking the risk of going through , what I went through with my oldest daughter .   

Edited by tonttu - 6/3/12 at 4:13am

[AlexisT]

You know, I DO vaccinate solely for others in some cases.

Rubella is a mild illness in children. It's really not a big deal. But CRS is. I vaccinate because of that. This is really why it's universal, period. The UK used to give it only to girls to stop CRS but because immunity is not 100%, CRS dropped but did not go away. When they went to universal rubella vaccination, CRS cases went to near 0.

By the way, Scandinavia has a very, very low incidence of Hep B. US rates of Hep B are higher than Europe's in general, hence adoption of universal Hep B here but not there. Vaccine schedules are adapted to local needs.

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

It's common knowledge.  It's really not in dispute by the vast majority of people and the scientific community.

Oh so true and oh so DANGEROUS.

How many times historically has common knowledge been PROVEN by time and MANY deaths to be UNTRUE.

It is incumbent on each MOTHER not to poison her children. She MUST not take the word of "authority" that what she is putting into her child is not poison.

Mothers must access this themselves.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”

Albert Einstein

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by tonttu 
.

Does it help others by creating herd immunity ? Yes

"Vaccination" created herd immunity is a myth created by the Vaccine Industry. Herd immunity can only be created when a large percentage of the herd contracts the wild disease and develops immunity to it. As we have seen "vaccination" does not confer immunity for the individual and cannot create it for the herd.

"Vaccination" does NOT confer Herd Immunity

[Louisw]

Let us look at the issue of antibodies and immunity in a little detail.

A mid 20th century study on the relationship of diphtheria incidence to the presence of antibodies found no observable correlation between antibody count and onset of the disease. “The researchers found people who were highly resistant with extremely low antibody count, and people who developed the disease who had high antibody counts.” Report No. 272, British Medical Council, London, England, May, 1950.

A group of military recruits were immunized for Rubella, and uniformly demonstrated antibodies, however 80 percent of the recruits contracted the disease when later exposed to it. Similar results were demonstrated in a subsequent study conducted at an institution for the mentally disabled. Allan B.; Australian Journal of Medical Technology; Vol. 4, Nov. 1973, pp. 26 and 27

Disease is obviously a broad bio-ecological question which goes beyond whether one is vaccinated, or whether one’s body is producing desired antibodies. Scientists have concluded that: “It is important to stress that immunity (or its absence) cannot be determined reliable on the basis of history of the disease, history of immunization, or even history of prior serologic determination.” Polk B.F., et al.; An Outbreak of Rubella (German Measles) among Hospital Personnel, The New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 303, No. 10, September 4, 1980, pp. 541-545.

These basic findings and observations suggest that there are serious frailties in vaccination theory and practice.

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Synopsis%20of%20Immunization%20Issues-1.pdf

[Louisw]

"No, chickenpox is not a particularly scary disease, but that does not mean it is not worth trying to prevent.  More than a hundred kids used to die a year from the disease - is that too few to bother trying to save?"

Yes it is if the cost of "saving" these 100 kids is the lives of 1000 other kids.

All invasive medicine is about RISK versus reward. The Vaccine Industry ignores most risk and over sells reward.

NOTHING is more invasive than injecting toxins into your body.

[WildKingdom]

This is the best you can do?  Studies that are between 30 and 60 years old?  Science has come a bit further since then.

Keep posting, Louisw.  You're making the case for vaccination better than I ever could.

[Rrrrrachel]

Louis, I just want to be clear for anyone who maybe lurking that what you're talking about has NO basis in mainstream science and runs contrary to much of it. I'm sure you know that and more power to you,but it's worth pointing out. Also, when you say things like "we know" or "I have shown" you mean "I know" and "I have asserted without meaningful evidence or support"

That is all.

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

One of the main reasons , if not THE main reason , why we now have the lucky situation , that many diseases are not so common anymore , is that people were vaccinated on a large scheme for many years .

This common myth is the reason many people vaccinate.

However we can see that MOST of the decline in the common immunogenerative childhood diseases occurred BEFORE those "vaccinations"

One important thing to notice IMO is that the incidences of a specific diseases and the incidence of scurvy often track together. To me this suggests that vitamin C the CURE for scurvy may prevent serious occurrence of the disease. This seems to hold for Vitamin D also. It is my opinion that if we stopped ALL "vaccination" and made sure our kids vitamin D levels were at least 60 ng/ml and that they received at least three grams of vitamin C/day we would see a VAST improvement in their health. Vitamins are natures "vaccinations" and more. Why is HHS so severely ignoring sound health by suggesting RDAs so vastly below healthy?

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Louis, I just want to be clear for anyone who maybe lurking that what you're talking about has NO basis in mainstream science and runs contrary to much of it. I'm sure you know that and more power to you,but it's worth pointing out. Also, when you say things like "we know" or "I have shown" you mean "I know" and "I have asserted without meaningful evidence or support"
That is all.

I have tried to reference most of my assertions and will not use we.

I have spent thousands of hours on "vaccination" and can say with complete confidence it is a complete and deadly fraud IMO. I have come to this conclusion thru SCIENCE. Most of the "mainstream science" we are given on "vaccination" is nothing but Vaccine Industry supported "science". Fraud by the Medical Industry is a national disgrace. This is the arena MOTHERS have to operate in. The main problem with "vaccination" is the political depopulation agenda driving it.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Bob Reeves 

Vaccines have done huge good but most unfortunately also huge harm.  Increasing the number of vaccines with mercury in them in 1985 from 10 to 57 caused the autism epidemic despite what Rrrrachel says below.  Taking the mercury out of many vaccines albeit slowly in 1999 was a move in the right direction, but still keeping 25 mcg of mercury in flu shots is crazily stupid.  Sorry Rachel but you sound like an anonymous shill for Big Pharma and the CDC.  Contrary to your assertion in your comment below there are over 50 papers that connect mercury in vaccines to autism.  The ones that are used to prove mercury safety are all deeply flawed.  I can send you or anyone else interested copies of many of these papers and a very sound critique of the claims for the safety of mercury in vaccines.  If you are interested just send your request to [e-mail].  I get a lot of emails so if you do not get a response send me a couple of reminders.
 

So, Bob who speaks with such authority- what's your explanation for why autism keeps increasing, even though thimerosol has been removed?  

*edited at moderator request to remove my response to Bob's Pharma Shill Gambit*

Edited by WildKingdom - 6/3/12 at 6:06pm

[Rrrrrachel]

Oh good, the shill gambit again. Love that particular logical fallacy.

If mercury in vaccines caused the "autism epidemic," why hasn't there been a drop in autism since it was taken out? Don't say because it's still in the fu shot because the compliance rate for the flu shot is atrocious and it's not in all flu shots, anyway. What about the research that shows the rate of autism isn't even increasing that much, anyway, and we are just better at detecting it.

Yes, please post the list of the fifty papers connecting mercury in vaccines to autism. I would really like to see it. No need for email, post that sucker publicly. I hope it includes the institutional affiliations and credentials of the researchers, but I can always look them up on my own.

[Rrrrrachel]

Robert, is this you? I'm just curious.

http://www.autismone.org/content/foia-exposes-cdc-lied-claiming-mercury-vaccines-safe