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The case for vaccination - Page 8  

post #141 of 713
6/3/12 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post

I was under the impression that "thimerisol-free" is not actually completely free of it, just dramatically lowered.  

 

???????

Most pediatric vaccines, with the big exception of flu shots, are now thimerosal free. This chart shows which vaccines still have "trace" amounts of mercury (0.3 mcg), indicated by the * with the underline.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm The full amount of mercury is 25 mcg. Don't be fooled by the .01% in the thimerosal column. That looks like a small amount, but move over to the mercury column, and it translates to 25 mcg mercury.

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post #142 of 713
6/3/12 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

The percentage of people that get a flue shot is very low and many pregnant women get the thimerosol free version. If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

Rrrrrachel, if thimerosal is a factor in autism, we would not yet have seen a significant drop off because the CDC has not yet studied children born AFTER thimerosal-free pediatric vaccines were in full use.

In addition, thimerosal used in conjunction with aluminum may exponentially increase reactions, and several new aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines were added to the schedule.

Flu shot uptake has dramatically decreased in the last couple of years, but uptake was very high before that, due to aggressive marketing (such as the h1n1fiasco, and the brilliant tactic of announcing a flu shot shortage in 2004).
post #143 of 713
6/3/12 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

See my post #122. Also, several of Taximom's posts. It's public record and absolutely no secret that the CDC's most recent autism statistics are from kids born in 2000, before any change was made to the amount of thimerosal in vaccines.

post #144 of 713
6/4/12 at 4:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow View Post

Missed that, thanks.  I was just responding to a report.  sigh.   What post specifically is that one in?  My head hurts and I don't think I can take a look through every single post for nastyness without going into a full blown migraine. 

 

Any name calling whatsoever needs to be edit out.  Everyone needs to read through their posts, and edit it out. 

 

It is possible to disagree and argue without accusations and calling people names.  The vaccination forums have become a den for nastiness, and it needs to stop.  If I were a new member looking for information on either side of this debate, I would have run screaming. 

Thank you!

post #145 of 713
6/4/12 at 4:45am
Thread Starter 
There are several studies that show the actual rate of autism hasn't changed, but it's just diagnosed more now. I've posted them before. I guess we'll see what happens over the next few years. I think it's interesting the excuse of the flu hot is already being prepared, even though compliance has ALWAYS been low and many children and pregnant women get the thimerosol free version.
post #146 of 713
6/4/12 at 4:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

The percentage of people that get a flue shot is very low and many pregnant women get the thimerosol free version. If the thimerosol is causing it there should still be a significant drop of.

Rrrrrachel, if thimerosal is a factor in autism, we would not yet have seen a significant drop off because the CDC has not yet studied children born AFTER thimerosal-free pediatric vaccines were in full use.

In addition, thimerosal used in conjunction with aluminum may exponentially increase reactions, and several new aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines were added to the schedule.

Flu shot uptake has dramatically decreased in the last couple of years, but uptake was very high before that, due to aggressive marketing (such as the h1n1fiasco, and the brilliant tactic of announcing a flu shot shortage in 2004).

 

How many pediatricians continued using thimerosal preserved vaccines after the thimerosal free vaccines were available? Do you have that information? Because without it, we don't know when we would expect to see a significant drop off in the autism rates if autism is in fact caused by vaccines (which it isn't).

post #147 of 713
6/4/12 at 4:49am
Thread Starter 
I also think its interesting we're assuming the children born in 2000 were expose to just as much thimerosol as other children. Seems like at worst thy would've been exposed to less (since it began being removed in 1999) yet the autism rate is higher.
post #148 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:03am
Thread Starter 
And of course let's not forget the multiple studies and iom report rejecting a connection between thimerosol and autism.

It's also really interesting to look at the chart of when various childhood vaccines were certified thimerosol free. Leaving aside the flu shot, only three brands (infanrix, pediarix, tripedia) ever contained thimerosol and it was just a trace. Two of the three were certified thimerosol free in 2001 or earlier.
post #149 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:06am
Thread Starter 
Whoops, I missed engerix (certified thimerosol free in 2000), so that makes four brands. Of the flu shots 4 of 8 are thimerosol free since 2004 or earlier, only one ever contained thimerosol, one more contains a trace.
post #150 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:09am
Thread Starter 
Super, I don't have that information but it seems reasonable to me that they didn't all just carry on just as before, so I assume there were fewer thimerosol containing vaccines give than before (and, of course, there weren't that many to begin with)
post #151 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
(I see that was directed at taxi, but I put my oar in anyway. I've never been shy)
post #152 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Super, I don't have that information but it seems reasonable to me that they didn't all just carry on just as before, so I assume there were fewer thimerosol containing vaccines give than before (and, of course, there weren't that many to begin with)

 

See, thats what I'm thinking - even if a pediatrician chose to use up what they had left, wouldn't they then start ordering the thimerosal free vaccines? I think so, but Taxi seems to think that all children everywhere only received thimerosal vaccines until 2004, and I was wondering if she had any sources that would back up her claim.

 

Always feel free to jump in :)

post #153 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:31am
Thread Starter 
Apparently there is someone somewhere on the Internet that once spotted a multiuse vial at some pediatricians office sometime on 2004.
post #154 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

There are several studies that show the actual rate of autism hasn't changed, but it's just diagnosed more now.
That is highly debatable - even among very mainstream experts.
I've posted them before. I guess we'll see what happens over the next few years. I think it's interesting the excuse of the flu hot is already being prepared, even though compliance has ALWAYS been low and many children and pregnant women get the thimerosol free version.

 

Compliance rate for the flu shot last year was around 43% overall and 51% in children.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/health/story/2011-09-21/CDC-urges-all-Americans-to-get-flu-shots/50498538/1

 

According to this article (2006 - anyone have more recent numbers?) 90% of flu shots contain thimersol:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_3400.cfm

 

Personally, I do not think children and pregnant women are more likely to get the thimerosal free flu shot.  I imagine many hcp (health care providers)  use what they have on hand. I don't think most hcp are going to bother switching to a thimerosal free vaccine for children and pregnant women - most do not think thimerosal is dangerous.  I doubt many people are going to ask for thimerosal free vaccines - many do not know about thimerosal, and if they do, they do not realise it is in flu vaccines.  


Edited by purslaine - 6/4/12 at 6:19am
post #155 of 713
6/4/12 at 5:57am
Thread Starter 

That's not true, kathy.  Both my ped and my OBGYN specifically stock and offer the thimerosal free shot exclusively to their patients.  When I tried to get a flu shot last year when I was pregnant at my local pharmacy the pharmacist specifically and without any prompting on my part pointed out to me that the shots they had contained thimerosal and some people believed it caused birth defects.  

 

I agree that my point about the rate of autism not declining is debatable.  I was just offering it as a piece of the puzzle not a definitive statement.

post #156 of 713
6/4/12 at 6:00am

Wow, this thread has gotten off-topic. Just to be part of the problem, I'm a pharmacist for a large retail chain and I immunize, and I definitely save preservative-free vaccine for pregnant women (pharmacists aren't allowed to immunize kids under 14 in my state).
 

post #157 of 713
6/4/12 at 6:06am
Thread Starter 

I don't think we've totally lost our way.  I think discussing both sides of the points I made in the original post is fair game.

post #158 of 713
6/4/12 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

That's not true, kathy.  Both my ped and my OBGYN specifically stock and offer the thimerosal free shot exclusively to their patients.  When I tried to get a flu shot last year when I was pregnant at my local pharmacy the pharmacist specifically and without any prompting on my part pointed out to me that the shots they had contained thimerosal and some people believed it caused birth defects.  

 

 

That is an anecdote, rrachel  (and yes, I like anecdotes, but only taken en masse when there are a gazillion anecdotes that all say the same thing)

 

Do you have any statistics on what percentage of kids and pregnant women receive thimerosal free vaccine? 

 

The only stat I found was that 90% of flu vaccines do contain thimerosal - but the stat was a bit old (2006)


Edited by purslaine - 6/4/12 at 7:18am
post #159 of 713
6/4/12 at 6:11am
Thread Starter 

You're right, it is an anecdote, but since you made a statement about what HCP do in general, one single anecdote to the contrary is enough to disprove your statement.  It's called a counter example.  

 

I will look for more stats, but saying that 90% of flu vaccine contains thimerosal is not at all the same as saying 90% of women and children who get the vaccine get the thimerosal version, I'm sure you know that though, being  a fellow math lover.

post #160 of 713
6/4/12 at 6:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

That's not true, kathy.  Both my ped and my OBGYN specifically stock and offer the thimerosal free shot exclusively to their patients.  When I tried to get a flu shot last year when I was pregnant at my local pharmacy the pharmacist specifically and without any prompting on my part pointed out to me that the shots they had contained thimerosal and some people believed it caused birth defects.  

 

 

That is an anecdote, rrachel  (and yes, I like anecdotes, but only taken en masse when there are a gazillion anecdotes that all say the same thing)

 

Do you have any statistics on how what percentage of kids and pregnant women receive thimerosal free vaccine? 

 

The only stat I found was that 90% of flu vaccines do contain thimerosal - but the stat was a bit old (2006)

 

Are you saying that when a pregnant woman gets a thimerosal containing vaccine her baby is at greater risk for autism? I'm confused.

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