The case for vaccination - Page 32

[Taximom5]

Lookis like what Wakefield published was true:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html

From 2006:
 

"The study appears to confirm the findings of British doctor Andrew Wakefield, who caused a storm in 1998 by suggesting a possible link. 

Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease - and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus. 

Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles."

http://www.wakehealth.edu/News-Releases/2006/Wake_Forest_Researcher_Warns_Against_Making_Connection_Between_Presence_of_Measles_Virus_and_Autism.htm?LangType=1033

"A high percentage of autistic children have chronic bowel disease, a discovery in the late 1990s that eventually led to the measles virus connection."

"Walker said that relieving the bowel discomfort has been shown to improve other conditions associated with autism, such as cognition and the ability to learn. 'There’s case after case where kids improved cognitively, behaviorally and biomedically when you treat the bowel disease. There is a great improvement from better nutrition alone. You see improvements in their overall condition.' ”

 

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Tontuu-

I have removed your post.  It is disrespectful and does nothing to further this conversation.  If you wish to debate a link or debate the finding of a study, do so without namecalling and being disrespectful. 

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I don't have time today to go through each of those studies and explain how they don't mean what you think they mean, but your statement thr Wakefield results had been replicated is just not true. Sorry.

Here is an almost identical finding by a world class researcher.

“John O’Leary, PhD a world-class researcher and molecular biologist from Ireland, using state of the art sequencing technology, showed how he had found measles virus in the gut of 96% of autistic children, compared to 6.6% of normal children. This virus did not come from the natural disease; it came from the measles vaccine.”

Rachel it is patently clear that MUCH of autism is associated with the measles vaccine. Why do you so fight this FACT?

If we accept this FACT we are given an approach to autism we can implement easily.

1) Postpone or eliminate the proven  toxic MMR vaccine.

2) Check our autistic child for gastrointestinal dysbiosis.

"Vaccinations have been developed, originally, for children with perfectly healthy immune systems," she says. "GAPS children are NOT fit to be vaccinated with the standard vaccination protocol."   Note Doctor Natasha recommends NO vaccines until the infant is tested and found to be NOT GAPS, then vaccination can be CONSIDERED, if the infant has GAPS NO vaccines until the infant's GAPS condition is completely gone.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/02/crucial-role-of-microflora-in-health.aspx?e_cid=20120402_DNL_art_2

[tonttu]

So , basically , we have found the answer ! We stop vaccinating against measles , and then treat all the autistic kids against bowel disease and they are fine , right ? 

It´s just strange , that MMR doesn´t get administered until a child is 12 months old , at least where I live , but most children I have heard of with autism shows first signs of the disease a lot sooner

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

So , basically , we have found the answer ! We stop vaccinating against measles , and then treat all the autistic kids against bowel disease and they are fine , right ? 

It´s just strange , that MMR doesn´t get administered until a child is 12 months old , at least where I live , but most children I have heard of with autism shows first signs of the disease a lot sooner

Many kids do not show autism signs until after 12 months.

Many children develop fairly normally - then regress.  This study puts it at 20-40% who develop fairly normally then regress.  In my family of origin, I have one nephew who showed some autistic tendencies from birth and one who absolutely did not. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041203100809.htm

I tend to think the rate of regressive autism is higher than 40%, but that is a hunch.

[stik]

Taximom, the Daily Mail is a British tabloid.  They maintain a very low standard for journalism.  Consequently, I see them as an extremely unreliable source.

Your second citation in post 621 of this thread appears to have been misconstrued.  The article specifically states:

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. – An American scientist whose research replicates a connection published in England in 2002 between the measles virus and bowel disease in autistic children strongly warns against making the “leap” to suggesting that the measles vaccine might actually cause autism.

“That is not what our research is showing,” said Stephen J. Walker, Ph.D., an assistant professor of physiology and pharmacology at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. Walker and colleagues have issued an abstract to be presented at this week’s International Meeting for Autism Research, indicating that a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.

Walker notes that many autistic children have GI problems, and that their condition improves after their GI issues are addressed, but adamantly asserts that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. 

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

So , basically , we have found the answer ! We stop vaccinating against measles , and then treat all the autistic kids against bowel disease and they are fine , right ? 

I noticed your tone is sarcastic, so I take it you've never heard about the gut brain connection or of autism symptoms improving after bowel problems are treated?

Edited by ma2two - 7/9/12 at 3:44pm

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by stik 

Walker notes that many autistic children have GI problems, and that their condition improves after their GI issues are addressed, but adamantly asserts that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. 

He does not "adamantly assert that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism." He would look quite foolish if he did. Perhaps a closer reading of the article is in order.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by stik 

Taximom, the Daily Mail is a British tabloid.  They maintain a very low standard for journalism.  Consequently, I see them as an extremely unreliable source.

Just so you know, the Daily Mail is pretty much the only newspaper in Britain that actually reports even slightly anti-vax stories. The Daily Mail is not the lowest of the low when it comes to tabloids, that accolade goes to either the Sun or Star, followed by the Daily Mirror.

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Many kids do not show autism signs until after 12 months.

Many children develop fairly normally - then regress.  This study puts it at 20-40% who develop fairly normally then regress.  In my family of origin, I have one nephew who showed some autistic tendencies from birth and one who absolutely did not. 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041203100809.htm

I tend to think the rate of regressive autism is higher than 40%, but that is a hunch.

Research is changing on that issue, Kathy, I've read several studies later that detect brain differences in children as young as six months who are later diagnosed with autism, despite showing no signs of it at the time. I wonder if in a few years we won't have a very different perspective on regressive autism, but that's just speculation.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


Research is changing on that issue, Kathy, I've read several studies later that detect brain differences in children as young as six months who are later diagnosed with autism, despite showing no signs of it at the time. I wonder if in a few years we won't have a very different perspective on regressive autism, but that's just speculation.

Would those 6 month old babies go on to develop autism if they received no further vaccines? Interesting question for further research.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


Research is changing on that issue, Kathy, I've read several studies later that detect brain differences in children as young as six months who are later diagnosed with autism, despite showing no signs of it at the time. I wonder if in a few years we won't have a very different perspective on regressive autism, but that's just speculation.

OT a little - but there is some research that shows children with regressive autism have larger brains from a very young age:

http://www.babycenter.com/204_head-size-tied-to-regressive-autism-in-boys_10360190.bc

I first learned about head size and autism a number of years ago and wondered if it could not be used as a screening tool (given the importance of early detection):

Another link:

http://www.cranialsubluxations.com/medical_research/increase_in_head_size_may_predict_autism.htm

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by stik 

Walker notes that many autistic children have GI problems, and that their condition improves after their GI issues are addressed, but adamantly asserts that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. 

You're putting words in his mouth, and making your own assumptions about that. His words were, "that is not what our research is showing."

Well, gee.  That's exactly what Wakefield et al said, too:  "We have not proved a causal association between MMR and autism."

And what both felt were of utmost importance:  a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.

[stik]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

You're putting words in his mouth, and making your own assumptions about that. His words were, "that is not what our research is showing."

Well, gee.  That's exactly what Wakefield et al said, too:  "We have not proved a causal association between MMR and autism."

And what both felt were of utmost importance:  a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.

Can you explain how this helps make the case for vaccination?  Because that's what this thread is about.  I respect that many here do not agree with the case for vaccination, but this thread is supposed to explain what that case is.  There's a different thread for the case against vaccination.  I know this isn't the "support only" thread for moms who vaccinate (but not too proudly, because that's offensive), but I feel we're getting off topic here.  There are many other threads that present the case against vaccination. 

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by stik 

Can you explain how this helps make the case for vaccination?  Because that's what this thread is about.  I respect that many here do not agree with the case for vaccination, but this thread is supposed to explain what that case is.  There's a different thread for the case against vaccination.  

So she's not allowed to refute an obvious falsehood? The "case for vaccination" is made stronger when it does not rely on obvious falsehoods. The falsehood here, being, Walker asserted that his research showed that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism.

[stik]

Walker asserted that his research did not suggest that the MMR vaccine caused autism.  He said there was measles virus from the MMR vaccine in the guts of many autistic children, but did not apply causality to that.  As he shouldn't.  It's entirely possible that a large chunk of the population has measles in their guts, but we only check people with GI problems so we don't know.

Let's just take the paraphrasing out to eliminate the confusion here.  Walker,

strongly warns against making the “leap” to suggesting that the measles vaccine might actually cause autism. “That is not what our research is showing,"

The quotation from the Daily Mail that Taximom presented directly contradicts the press release on the research from Doctor Walker and Wake Forest University. 

I have spent many, many years being super-polite and not contradicting obvious falsehoods that appear in the anti-vax forum.  Although I have invested considerable time and energy in cultivating the virtue of not pointing out flaws in other people's beliefs in those people's safe space and would love it if others returned the courtesy, I don't think that the pro-vax POV needs help from falsehoods. 

However, the questioning of obvious falsehoods is not what is going on here.  This is more like "obnoxious minor tweaking of word order to contest the meaning of a statement over and over again for the purposes of undermining a view that non-vaxers don't agree with in the hopes that the people who do support vaccination with finally all go away, since an entire forum on the board dedicated to only their view with no debate whatsoever is unsatisfying to anti-vaxxers who seek rigid uniformity on this subject." 

My bottom line here: Walker says his findings do not reveal the cause of autism, and it would be irresponsible to make that jump.  The Daily Mail, which avidly reports on the anti-vax side of the vaccine controversy, has misrepresented Dr. Walker's findings in order to sell papers. 

ETA: Also, I see no reason why anyone should have to deal with measles, mumps, chicken pox, tetanus, diptheria, polio, or the host of other VPDs if they can be prevented, and while I think mandatory vaccination would be inappropriate and damaging to people with allergies to vaccine ingredients, family or personal histories of adverse reactions to vaccines, and assorted health problems, I think it would be great if everyone else vaccinated.  It would help protect my kids from outbreaks of VPDs.  Thanks! 

[Goddess3_2005]

Am I on mothering.com? Mothering has published article after article against using vaxs, there is no place for a thread like this here.

Oh and look up encheplalitis from vaccines on this forum, it's clear the brain damages occurs from thos first 2 mon vaccines. NAK

[Goddess3_2005]

iPad won't let me edit, if vaccines work so week, why would you care if my kids aren't vaxed? And don't try to feed me that herd immunity BS

[Rrrrrachel]

Very thoughtful and educated.

[stik]

Over the past few months, there have been many discussions of MDC's official position on vaccination.  To summarize: MDC opposes mandatory vaccination, and takes no other position on the issue of vaccines. 

There is a WHOLE FORUM dedicated to people who do not vaccinate.  Please enjoy it responsibly.  This thread is not in the "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum.  This is the "Vaccinations" forum, where people get to discuss many topics related to vaccination. 

The title of this thread is "The Case for Vaccination."  That means that this is a thread in which people can talk about the reasons why they advocate vaccination. If you would like to discuss a different topic, like the case against vaccination, or your belief that MDC should never ever have a pro-vax thread because that would invert the natural order of the universe, I would take it as a personal favor if you would start a different thread or join one of the many others now in progress so this thread can stay on topic. 

Since we're here to talk about the case for vaccination, I would like to add that it is my personal belief that the rate of vaccine reactions is frequently over-stated by the anti-vax camp, to the point where a couple moms have shown up on MDC in the last couple months looking for information on "detoxing" or "chelating" healthy children with no sign of adverse vax reactions because they feel guilty that they once vaccinated.  Not only are these children now more vulnerable to VPDs because they aren't up-to-date on their vaccines, but their mothers are considering toxic and dangerous "treatments" for problems that their children don't have.  Basically, some moms are so wracked with guilt over having once vaccinated that they plan to torture their children to atone for their sinful vaccinating ways.  This is deplorable.

Vaccination reactions are very rare, and children who show no sign of vaccine reactions are, in fact, not having vaccine reactions.  Some of the things that have been described as vaccine reactions on MDC (classics include a strange faraway look, twitching during sleep, and many others) are better explained by other factors (examples include peeing, an REM cycle, and many others).  The risks of an adverse reaction to vaccines are dramatically smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.  Vaccines are contraindicated in specific and limited circumstances, such as for individuals with allergies to vaccine ingredients, and people with family and/or personal histories of auto-immune disorders, vax reactions, and certain other health conditions that are really not very common at all.