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The case for vaccination - Page 33  

post #641 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess3_2005 View Post

iPad won't let me edit, if vaccines work so week, why would you care if my kids aren't vaxed? And don't try to feed me that herd immunity BS


Vaccines work well, but they work better if more people use them.  Herd immunity is not BS, and is part of the case for vaccination. 

post #642 of 713
Thread Starter 
Stik, be never been sadder I can't get the thumbs up to work on my iPad. Well said.
post #643 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

ETA: Also, I see no reason why anyone should have to deal with measles, mumps, chicken pox, tetanus, diptheria, polio, or the host of other VPDs if they can be prevented, and while I think mandatory vaccination would be inappropriate and damaging to people with allergies to vaccine ingredients, family or personal histories of adverse reactions to vaccines, and assorted health problems, I think it would be great if everyone else vaccinated.  It would help protect my kids from outbreaks of VPDs.  Thanks! 

 

It really sounds like you think mandatory vaccination is okay for every one who doesn't have allergies to vaccine ingredients, family or personal histories of adverse reactions to vaccines and assorted health problems? Is this for the "greater good", never mind if a few unfortunate children are sacrificed for the many? No thanks! You honestly think that this would protect your children, when the majority of outbreaks of these diseases occur in vaccinated populations, some outbreaks occurred in 100 percent vaccinated? What protects children is a fully functioning, unadulterated healing/immune support system. I am sorry but my children getting their tetanus shot is not going to protect your kids in any way whatsoever. According to the CDC, there has been no confirmed case of diphtheria in the US since 2003, and there really is no point is going into the likely hood of catching polio, unless you want to call it by another name, Acute Flaccid Paralysis, maybe? Yes, herd immunity is BS because it has nothing to do with vaccine "immunity", which is becoming more and more apparent how fleeting that is. Herd immunity requires more than just a one time event and life-long immunity, it also requires ongoing re-exposure, and medical science is trying to mimic this with more and more boosters. The problem with this is that it leaves the very young, (without the benefit of maternal antibodies) at risk for diseases they never were in the past, and with chicken pox, the old at risk for shingles because they are no longer re-exposed to children with benign chicken pox.

 

It is such as shame that in the desire to prevent children getting from measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, the age-old understanding that these are natural diseases, and that help they immune system to mature has been lost on parents today. Vaccines do not do that, they do the opposite and open up children to auto-immune deficiencies which result in asthma, eczema, diabetes etc. Measles, provided it is managed properly, without antipyretics and antibiotics is unlikely to be dangerous, and will confer not just life-long immunity but also protection against degenerative bone and cartilage diseases, and immune system diseases like asthma and allergies, sebaceous skin diseases and even cancers. Having mumps has been shown to prevent ovarian cancer. 

post #644 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

I noticed your tone is sarcastic, so I take it you've never heard about the gut brain connection or of autism symptoms improving after bowel problems are treated?

Oh yes , I know all about that , especially since I have ulcerated colitis myself and believe me , when I feel good " down there " , my whole body , including my head feels better .

But that goes for anybody and just because , it makes a person , any person feel better , it simply means , that an autistic person has one less thing to aggravate them , not that they are cured or anywhere near that 

post #645 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

Over the past few months, there have been many discussions of MDC's official position on vaccination.  To summarize: MDC opposes mandatory vaccination, and takes no other position on the issue of vaccines. 

 

There is a WHOLE FORUM dedicated to people who do not vaccinate.  Please enjoy it responsibly.  This thread is not in the "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum.  This is the "Vaccinations" forum, where people get to discuss many topics related to vaccination. 

 

The title of this thread is "The Case for Vaccination."  That means that this is a thread in which people can talk about the reasons why they advocate vaccination. If you would like to discuss a different topic, like the case against vaccination, or your belief that MDC should never ever have a pro-vax thread because that would invert the natural order of the universe, I would take it as a personal favor if you would start a different thread or join one of the many others now in progress so this thread can stay on topic. 

 

Since we're here to talk about the case for vaccination, I would like to add that it is my personal belief that the rate of vaccine reactions is frequently over-stated by the anti-vax camp, to the point where a couple moms have shown up on MDC in the last couple months looking for information on "detoxing" or "chelating" healthy children with no sign of adverse vax reactions because they feel guilty that they once vaccinated.  Not only are these children now more vulnerable to VPDs because they aren't up-to-date on their vaccines, but their mothers are considering toxic and dangerous "treatments" for problems that their children don't have.  Basically, some moms are so wracked with guilt over having once vaccinated that they plan to torture their children to atone for their sinful vaccinating ways.  This is deplorable.

 

Vaccination reactions are very rare, and children who show no sign of vaccine reactions are, in fact, not having vaccine reactions.  Some of the things that have been described as vaccine reactions on MDC (classics include a strange faraway look, twitching during sleep, and many others) are better explained by other factors (examples include peeing, an REM cycle, and many others).  The risks of an adverse reaction to vaccines are dramatically smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.  Vaccines are contraindicated in specific and limited circumstances, such as for individuals with allergies to vaccine ingredients, and people with family and/or personal histories of auto-immune disorders, vax reactions, and certain other health conditions that are really not very common at all. 

bow.gifbow.gif

 

THAT about sums it up for me !!!

post #646 of 713
Thread Starter 
Herd immunity is real and it's measurable. There are multiple studies that have measured herd injury by measuring how disease rates go down in the non vaccinated population when vaccines are introduced in part of a community. Saying herd immunity doesn't exist or doesn't exist as a result of vaccination is like saying the sun goes around the earth. We know the contrary is true.

I didn't see anywhere stick advocated for mandatory vaccination, so don't put words in her mouth just so you have a straw man to rail against.
post #647 of 713
Mirzam, I've seen your evidence for those assertions in other threads, and I found it scientifically weak and unconvincing. Do you have questions about the case for vaccination, or perhaps an argument in favor of vaccines that you think would be a compelling contribution to this discussion?

I have expressly and explicitly stated, in several threads including this one, that I do not support mandatory vaccination.

If no one vaccinated, we would essentially have mandatory measles and mumps, which could have serious adverse consequences including death for children in a higher risk category, like my children. So yes, I do think it would be great if everyone who did not have medical contraindications to vaccination was vaccinated. I acknowledge that I don't get to make decisions for everyone. My decisions in re vaccination only directly affect me and my children. Indirectly, you may get herd immunity, which is the burden of not getting sick. The decision to expose a child to a contagious illness potentially directly affects many people who may not know or consent. So if we're talking about not forcing people to do things, I feel strongly that people who vaccinate come out ahead. We don't force others to get shots, and we don't force them to get measles either.
post #648 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

Since we're here to talk about the case for vaccination, I would like to add that it is my personal belief that the rate of vaccine reactions is frequently over-stated by the anti-vax camp, to the point where a couple moms have shown up on MDC in the last couple months looking for information on "detoxing" or "chelating" healthy children with no sign of adverse vax reactions because they feel guilty that they once vaccinated.  Not only are these children now more vulnerable to VPDs because they aren't up-to-date on their vaccines, but their mothers are considering toxic and dangerous "treatments" for problems that their children don't have.  Basically, some moms are so wracked with guilt over having once vaccinated that they plan to torture their children to atone for their sinful vaccinating ways.  This is deplorable.

 

 

I don't think that's fair.  Numerous non-vaxxers told that poster (I can only think of one such post) not to chelate or detox.  Posters are not responsible for how other posters feel, think or act.

 

If we are applying that logic, lets apply it to the several posters here whose children had an adverse reaction to vaccines, but continued to vaccinate as they had been led by the pro-vax community to believe that the reactions they saw with their own eyes were not real and that vaxxes were very necessary and wonderful.  2 out of 3 of said posters had children who had further serious reactions - with long term consequences.

 

Are pro-vaxxers who post here to blame for parents who continue to vaccinate after serious reactions?


Edited by purslaine - 7/10/12 at 6:35am
post #649 of 713
IMO, treating physicians are resposible for people who continue to vaccinate after serious reactions. I haven't seen any pro-Vax posters on MDC deny that vaccine reactions happen. Nor have I seen anyone claim that an actual serious reaction was nothing and a parent should keep vaccinating.

I have seen anti-vax posters claim that VPDs were completely benign because they were featured on the Brady Bunch and the Flintstones, so I would like to enter into the evidence in favor of vaccines the entirety of the TV series House.

While we're here, are non-vaxxing parents responsible for the outbreak of measles that quarantined and hospitalized kids in the San Francisco area a few years back? Because I think one could argue that had those parents taken the risks of a measles outbreak a little more seriously, they would have made some different choices (which would not have had to include vaccination) that would have helped limit impacts on vulnerable members of the community.
post #650 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

While we're here, are non-vaxxing parents responsible for the outbreak of measles that quarantined and hospitalized kids in the San Francisco area a few years back? Because I think one could argue that had those parents taken the risks of a measles outbreak a little more seriously, they would have made some different choices (which would not have had to include vaccination) that would have helped limit impacts on vulnerable members of the community.

 

I think vaccines may (emphasis on the "may" - but that is enough for me) play a role in auto-immune disorders and autism.  I will take my chances with measles over auto-immune disorders or autism.  

 

Is it kind of sucky that my choice (particularly if taken en masse by a community) may contribute to a spike in measles for people who would make a different choice than me?  Yeah, it is.  I honestly wish vaccines were 100% effective, so that my not vaccinating could not (even hypothetically) contribute to a vaccinated person getting a disease.

 

None-the-less, if it comes down to the needs of society over the needs of my kids, I choose my kids.  Moreover, if my suspicions about the harm vaccines can do is at all correct - well, it is not like autism and autoimmune issues have no cost to society.  

 

I think people who choose to vaccinate against CP are choosing their kids and their needs over society - as we strongly suspect the uptake in shingles (a far more painful disease than CP) is due to less wild strains of CP kicking around - and this "uptake" could well last many years. 

post #651 of 713
I don't buy the alleged cp vax/ shingles connection.

I vax primarily for my kids' benefit, but the benefit to the community is a nice bonus, and I consider the indirect benefits to my children's community to be an important piece of the case for vaccination. I actively seek out opportunities to be altruistic. I think altruism is a really important value.

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism. We had a whole thread about this lack of evidence a couple months back. The anti-cax camp didn't find the lack of evidence convincing and Paul Offitt was much maligned, but it is a valid part of the case for vaccination. People with autoimmune disorders shouldn't be vaccinated, per the CDC.

And hey, it always makes my day when non-vaxers drop by to mention that they don't care if my kids get seriously ill as long as their kid doesnt get a condition that doesn't appear to be caused by vaccines anyway. So thanks for that. Good to know.
post #652 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

IMO, treating physicians are resposible for people who continue to vaccinate after serious reactions. I haven't seen any pro-Vax posters on MDC deny that vaccine reactions happen. Nor have I seen anyone claim that an actual serious reaction was nothing and a parent should keep vaccinating.
 

Tonttu said this (on this thread):

 

"The argument " my kid had a reaction " is a bad one as well , I myself had a bad reaction to a vacc booster , when I was a teenager , but when I got the same booster several years later , everything was fine and I had no adverse reactions  . "

 

So, yes, here is some evidence the pro-vax community underplays vaccines reactions.

 

Otherwise, I agree with you:  a doctor has some responsibility in continuing to vaccinate someone who had a severe reaction.  Likewise, a hcp would bear the responsibility for chelating a child unnecessarily.  Parents bear some of the responsibility.  Posters?  Not so much.  We can state our arguments and point out our links, but it is up the parents to decide what to make of them.

post #653 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

And hey, it always makes my day when non-vaxers drop by to mention that they don't care if my kids get seriously ill as long as their kid doesnt get a condition that doesn't appear to be caused by vaccines anyway. So thanks for that. Good to know.

Wouldn't you choose my kid getting ill over yours? 

post #654 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Herd immunity is real and it's measurable. There are multiple studies that have measured herd injury by measuring how disease rates go down in the non vaccinated population when vaccines are introduced in part of a community. Saying herd immunity doesn't exist or doesn't exist as a result of vaccination is like saying the sun goes around the earth. We know the contrary is true.
I didn't see anywhere stick advocated for mandatory vaccination, so don't put words in her mouth just so you have a straw man to rail against.

 

I thought correlation did not equal causation?

post #655 of 713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Wouldn't you choose my kid getting ill over yours? 

I don't choose who gets sick. If I did, I would choose no kids getting sick. What kind of question is that?
post #656 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

I thought correlation did not equal causation?

Herd immunity has plenty of evidentiary support. If you think that evidence is crap or want to propose an alternate mechanism, that's your perotative, but, out of courtesy to people who are discussing the case for vaccination, it would be great if you did it in a different thread.
post #657 of 713

Stik, I am no longer going to engage in conversation with you because we are just so far apart there can be no point of agreement in anyway, you can think what you please, and it will not affect my opinions in any way whatsoever, and I am sure the reverse is true. I chose not to live in fear of disease, I chose to be in control of my reality, I realize you will not understand this, and that is okay with me. As I have said before, given your beliefs, I am truly glad you vaccinate your children because it must give you some sense of security, however it appears not quite enough when you start demanding that others vaccinate there children to further protect yours. Even though you claim not to be for mandatory vaccination, it sounds to me like you really don't trust the vaccines your children have had. You obviously wish to protect your children at all costs, I just think you are going the wrong way about it and you seem to be demanding others do it your way as well. 

 

I think you should stop berating mothers for worrying about the damage vaccines may have caused to their children, if I could take back the vaccines my eldest DD had those 22 years ago, I would. I hate the fact I allowed her to have HBV as a neonate, and the BCG as a one day old, it was done without my permission. I also hate that she twice suffered the DTP scream, at 4 months and 6 months old, I hate that I was so scared of menigitis, that I insisted when she was a 15 month old that her ped order the Hib vaccine from Japan for her. Thankfully, the man would only give one vaccine at a time and he delayed the MMR until she was 18 months old. I hate that when she was five, even though I had begun to understand vaccines had problems, I still vaccinated her because the school requested it. Do I think she suffered damage, yes, every vaccine results in damage to the body, many of the vaccines my DD had contained thimerosol. She never had any auto immune issues, however, her school experience was extremely challenging for her because of mild ADD, it was a real struggle for her to graduate high school, and she chose not to go to college. Compare this to my unvaxed children, it is like night and day, and I feel bad for her that she struggled so much. 

post #658 of 713
And I think this thread is about the case for vaccination, and opposing perspectives should go in a more appropriate thread.
post #659 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post


Herd immunity has plenty of evidentiary support. If you think that evidence is crap or want to propose an alternate mechanism, that's your perotative, but, out of courtesy to people who are discussing the case for vaccination, it would be great if you did it in a different thread.

 

Ah, I see.  You can go off-topic but no one else can if they disagree with you.

 

I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.  Isn't the point of the thread to discuss both sides of the case for vaccination?

post #660 of 713
This thread and an opposing thread titled "the case against vaccination" were created simultaneously. So no, this thread was not created to discuss both sides of the issue. It was created to allow posters to explain one side of the issue.
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