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The case for vaccination - Page 36  

post #701 of 713

I'm not concerned, though I am FURIOUS that anyone would suggest that VPDs should make a big comeback and that should be seen as a good thing. 

 

Let me put it this way: Suppose I suggested that all newborns should be injected with a high dose of thimerosol because I believed it to be not only harmless, but beneficial.  In this hypothetical situation, how would you feel about me?

post #702 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

I'm not concerned, though I am FURIOUS that anyone would suggest that VPDs should make a big comeback and that should be seen as a good thing. 

 

Let me put it this way: Suppose I suggested that all newborns should be injected with a high dose of thimerosol because I believed it to be not only harmless, but beneficial.  In this hypothetical situation, how would you feel about me?

 

I don't feel any differently about you than I have all along.  You can suggest anything you want, it doesn't make it reality.

 

You've suggested things I don't agree with and that I do believe are harmful quite often.

post #703 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

Taximom talks all the time about how terrifying it was to see her child seizing with a vaccine reactions.  I'm sure it was.  I've seen enough seizures to know the feeling of helplessness and fear, and I wasn't even watching my kid seizing. 

 

 

 

Every time we talk about vaccine risks, Taxi unleashes a tirade at anyone who doesn't demonstrate proper respect for the terrifying, damaging nature of her son's vaccine reaction. 

Interesting.

 

You have never suggested that anything should be done about minimizing or preventing vaccine reactions.  In fact, you've been very clear that you believe that most parents who report severe vaccine reactions are over-reacting, making it up, etc (which is exactly how I was treated by medical personnel until my child was actually examined by someone who had previously seen a vaccine reaction):

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

Vaccination reactions are very rare, and children who show no sign of vaccine reactions are, in fact, not having vaccine reactions.  Some of the things that have been described as vaccine reactions on MDC (classics include a strange faraway look, twitching during sleep, and many others) are better explained by other factors (examples include peeing, an REM cycle, and many others).  The risks of an adverse reaction to vaccines are dramatically smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.  Vaccines are contraindicated in specific and limited circumstances, such as for individuals with allergies to vaccine ingredients, and people with family and/or personal histories of auto-immune disorders, vax reactions, and certain other health conditions that are really not very common at all. 


 

Vaccines absolutely SHOULD be contraindicated in individuals with family and/or personal histories of autoimmune disorders--individuals with such histories are barred from taking part in vaccine safety studies--but they're not.  See the CDC pink book.
 
post #704 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

Let me put it this way: Suppose I suggested that all newborns should be injected with a high dose of thimerosol because I believed it to be not only harmless, but beneficial.  In this hypothetical situation, how would you feel about me?

Well, let see…..

 

Many pro-vaxxer have defended potentially giving thimerosal to pregnant women vis a vis the flu shot, which crosses the placenta….

 

What's the difference?

post #705 of 713

So that analogy isn't working for you, Bokonon.  Thanks for sharing your feelings. 

 

Kathy's suggestion implies a high degree of callousness towards my children and others like them.  While I know that Kathy is unlikely to be effective in making public policy, I'm not going to let it pass unremarked, in this thread on the case for vaccination, that anti-vaxxers on MDC have seemed incredibly willing to throw other people's children under the bus of late.  If there is to be any hope of civil conversation between the factions on this issue, anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases.   

 

Mainly, though, I think it would be nice if the people who think that my kids should be repeatedly exposed to preventable diseases that would be REALLY, REALLY dangerous for them?  Would go talk about it in their special dedicated forum for people who agree that measles is better than vaccination, where I will not run into it.  *This thread* is about the case for vaccination, and part of that case is that VPDs have serious consequences for some people.

post #706 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

So that analogy isn't working for you, Bokonon.  Thanks for sharing your feelings. 

 

Kathy's suggestion implies a high degree of callousness towards my children and others like them.  While I know that Kathy is unlikely to be effective in making public policy, I'm not going to let it pass unremarked, in this thread on the case for vaccination, that anti-vaxxers on MDC have seemed incredibly willing to throw other people's children under the bus of late.  If there is to be any hope of civil conversation between the factions on this issue, anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases.   

 

Mainly, though, I think it would be nice if the people who think that my kids should be repeatedly exposed to preventable diseases that would be REALLY, REALLY dangerous for them?  Would go talk about it in their special dedicated forum for people who agree that measles is better than vaccination, where I will not run into it.  *This thread* is about the case for vaccination, and part of that case is that VPDs have serious consequences for some people.

 

I think you are repeatedly putting words into Kathy's mouth and assuming an intent that simply is not there.

 

You refuse to think of vaccine-injured children as anything but anecdotes, but are imploring the community to consider your children as a reason for widespread, mandatory vaccination.  Honestly, the hypocrisy is mindboggling.

post #707 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

Kathy's suggestion implies a high degree of callousness towards my children and others like them.  While I know that Kathy is unlikely to be effective in making public policy, I'm not going to let it pass unremarked, in this thread on the case for vaccination, that anti-vaxxers on MDC have seemed incredibly willing to throw other people's children under the bus of late.  If there is to be any hope of civil conversation between the factions on this issue, anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases.   

 

Throwing other peoples children under the bus...  What about children who have had vaccine reactions?  Where is the compassion for them?  There isn't any - it is all about denial and dismissal.

 

Civility is a two way street.

 

 

 

Mainly, though, I think it would be nice if the people who think that my kids should be repeatedly exposed to preventable diseases that would be REALLY, REALLY dangerous for them?  Would go talk about it in their special dedicated forum for people who agree that measles is better than vaccination, where I will not run into it.  *This thread* is about the case for vaccination, and part of that case is that VPDs have serious consequences for some people.

 

There is obviously some baggage around the fact the non-vaxxing forum exist while a pro-vax forum does not.  Well, go friggin ask for one! I will abide by its regulations.  It is lame that the person who brings it up the most is a non-vaxxer (moi).  You cannot have it both ways - you (general you) should not whine about the existence of the non-vax forum while simultaneously refusing to ask for your own forum.

post #708 of 713

Taximom, I have always respected your feelings about your children's vaccine reactions.  I don't agree with your assertion that your ds's vaccine reaction caused his autism, but I have never denied that he had a serious reaction.  Per your report in several threads, your son had a lengthy seizure.  While febrile seizures are not considered severe reactions by the medical establishment, they are usually not lengthy.  If my kid did that (or, frankly, if my kid had a brief febrile seizure) we would be in the ER screaming for medical attention.  I agree that what your son had was a serious vaccine reaction.  You probably haven't noticed this respect, because I also have found you to be cruel to other posters, including me, and choose to avoid talking to you whenever possible.  But you are the reason why, every single time I talk about who should be vaccinated, I wind up writing a run-on sentence full of caveats about people who shouldn't vaccinate.  I don't think vaccination should be mandatory, and I don't think all children should be vaccinated.  I was really certain that I had seen something from the CDC on not vaccinating people with auto-immune disorders, but if I am in error on that, I think it's what the policy SHOULD be. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Interesting.

 

You have never suggested that anything should be done about minimizing or preventing vaccine reactions.  In fact, you've been very clear that you believe that most parents who report severe vaccine reactions are over-reacting, making it up, etc (which is exactly how I was treated by medical personnel until my child was actually examined by someone who had previously seen a vaccine reaction):

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik View Post

 

 

Vaccination reactions are very rare, and children who show no sign of vaccine reactions are, in fact, not having vaccine reactions.  Some of the things that have been described as vaccine reactions on MDC (classics include a strange faraway look, twitching during sleep, and many others) are better explained by other factors (examples include peeing, an REM cycle, and many others).  The risks of an adverse reaction to vaccines are dramatically smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.  Vaccines are contraindicated in specific and limited circumstances, such as for individuals with allergies to vaccine ingredients, and people with family and/or personal histories of auto-immune disorders, vax reactions, and certain other health conditions that are really not very common at all. 


 

The reports of severe reactions are the ones I trust.  it's the reports of minor reactions I'm skeptical about. 

post #709 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

I think you are repeatedly putting words into Kathy's mouth and assuming an intent that simply is not there.

 

You refuse to think of vaccine-injured children as anything but anecdotes, but are imploring the community to consider your children as a reason for widespread, mandatory vaccination.  Honestly, the hypocrisy is mindboggling.


I've said that I'm grateful to others who vaccinate because it helps increase herd immunity which benefits my children.  This is not the same as imploring others to vaccinate. 

post #710 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by stik View Post

So that analogy isn't working for you, Bokonon.  Thanks for sharing your feelings. 

 

Kathy's suggestion implies a high degree of callousness towards my children and others like them.  While I know that Kathy is unlikely to be effective in making public policy, I'm not going to let it pass unremarked, in this thread on the case for vaccination, that anti-vaxxers on MDC have seemed incredibly willing to throw other people's children under the bus of late.  If there is to be any hope of civil conversation between the factions on this issue, anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases.   

 

Mainly, though, I think it would be nice if the people who think that my kids should be repeatedly exposed to preventable diseases that would be REALLY, REALLY dangerous for them?  Would go talk about it in their special dedicated forum for people who agree that measles is better than vaccination, where I will not run into it.  *This thread* is about the case for vaccination, and part of that case is that VPDs have serious consequences for some people.

Oh, I get it.  You're making a joke out of this whole issue, pretending to be all upset about "anti-vax callousness" towards people whose children have predisposition to complications, when you treated my own similar complaints "from the other side" with utter contempt and derision.

 

Well.


I guess if you think that that makes a case for vaccination, and you think it's funny on top of it...

 

I guess it is pretty funny that you say, "anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases," when the pro-vaxxers have absolutely no sympathy for anyone's concerns about consequences of vaccines.

post #711 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 


I have stood in the middle of the two-way street that is civility for a long time.  I have been hit by traffic.  People in cars are yelling at me because I don't want my kids to get mumps.  My baggage right now is about EUGENICS.  It's about the assertions that:

 

- "We" would be better off "as a society" if mumps and rubella were common

- Measles is good for "us"

- Unvaccinated children are "better" than vaccinated ones.

 

Kathy, while you've denied that you mean my child any harm, you keep returning to this thread with no explanation of how your proposal about mumps and rubella is supposed to benefit children like mine, or even how they will be protected from the dangers it will expose them to. 

 

I didn't want a pro-vax only forum last week, but I sure as hell do now. 

post #712 of 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Oh, I get it.  You're making a joke out of this whole issue, pretending to be all upset about "anti-vax callousness" towards people whose children have predisposition to complications, when you treated my own similar complaints "from the other side" with utter contempt and derision.

 

Well.


I guess if you think that that makes a case for vaccination, and you think it's funny on top of it...

 

I guess it is pretty funny that you say, "anti-vaxxers should, at the very least, sympathize with pro-vaxxers' concerns about consequences of diseases," when the pro-vaxxers have absolutely no sympathy for anyone's concerns about consequences of vaccines.

 

I'm really upset about anti-vaccination callousness.  I respect your complaints, I just haven't bothered to talk about it because your contempt for me has been clearly evident since you insulted my children in January. 

post #713 of 713

I'm closing this thread for now, until someone has a chance to read it.

 

I'm not sure what the heck is going on in here - if it is the heat, or what, but folks, personal issues need to be taken to PM. We are dreadfully off topic and now just poking at each other.

 

So, someone will read through this and deal with issues, and then decide if it needs to be reopened.  

 

Thanks.

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