The case for vaccination - Page 5

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Why ?  Because I have done my research and because I love my kids and for those reasons , I have chosen to do so !

Yes , I believe in herd immunity and for me the risk of a vaccine - induced problem is a much smaller risk that that of an unvacced child getting a certain disease and suffering the side effects .

No , I don´t believe , non - vaccers don´t love their children and I am sure , they have their reasons to deny their children this crucial part of modern health care , but maybe they should step back and think about the fact , that they can thank those of us , who have been vaccinated , that many horrible and dangerous diseases , that used to cost countless people´s lives , have been in many parts of the World been virtually eradicated , because if the herd immunity we have created !   

You should reword the bolded.  It is really offensive.  That is about as non-shooty as I can get 

[tonttu]

Sorry , if I offended some people , but there have been quite a few occasions , when people on this forum told me , that I am basically an idiot if I vaccinate my kids and if I loved them , I wouldn´t ! 

However , if you read my post thoroughly , you will see , that I DID NOT say , others ( non - vaccers ) don´t love their children , I simply stated MY side of the discussion and for me that is " I love my kids , that is why I vaccinate " .

Others on Mothering say " I love my kids and that is , why I don´t ! " 

And the herd immunity is something , even non - vaccers have agreed to , that they don´t have to worry about their kids or themselves contracting certain diseases , because there are so many people , who have been vacced for so many years , that they are virtually gone ( the diseases I mean )  

So , that is not an attack on my side , it´s simply a statement ! 

And one many people on this forum agree with ! Plus , personally , I don´t have a problem anymore with others putting me down , I will never stop vaccinating and I really believe in the benefits , if others reap the benefit from my action and by me contributing to herd immunity , even better ! 

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

You should reword the bolded.  It is really offensive.  That is about as non-shooty as I can get 

If you're going to say "ick" about people who consider society in their decision, then you really shouldn't critique others about being offensive. If you can dish it out....

[thegoodearth]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Sorry , if I offended some people , but there have been quite a few occasions , when people on this forum told me , that I am basically an idiot if I vaccinate my kids and if I loved them , I wouldn´t ! 

However , if you read my post thoroughly , you will see , that I DID NOT say , others ( non - vaccers ) don´t love their children , I simply stated MY side of the discussion and for me that is " I love my kids , that is why I vaccinate " .

Others on Mothering say " I love my kids and that is , why I don´t ! " 

And the herd immunity is something , even non - vaccers have agreed to , that they don´t have to worry about their kids or themselves contracting certain diseases , because there are so many people , who have been vacced for so many years , that they are virtually gone ( the diseases I mean )  

So , that is not an attack on my side , it´s simply a statement ! 

And one many people on this forum agree with ! Plus , personally , I don´t have a problem anymore with others putting me down , I will never stop vaccinating and I really believe in the benefits , if others reap the benefit from my action and by me contributing to herd immunity , even better ! 

I think it's great that you feel confident in your decision to vaccinate. I wonder though how you don't see that your previous post could be seen as offensive? 

I'm just curious do you vaccinate on the Scandinavian schedule or the US schedule or another schedule? 

[tonttu]

Well , my 4 oldest on the German vaccine schedule until we moved to Scandinavia in early 2000 , the last 2 on Scandinavian from the start ! But they are quite similar anyway ! Why ? 

[thegoodearth]

No real reason - just curiosity since you live outside of the US. You're right - they are similar with some differences. One difference being that it appears Hep B is only recommended for high risk groups on the Scandinavian schedule but on the US schedule Hep B is routinely done. Anyways - I know this is off topic... carry on

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Quote: Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama So, 60% of my immune system was entirely used up by the vaccines I received as a child, and is irreplaceable? Then, every time I get sick 10% is used up? So, after getting all my vaccines, and being sick 4 more times I'll have ZERO immune system left? You do see how ridiculous this is right? No, no silly! They get used up in a logarithmic fashion! 1/x will approach 0, but never actually reach it!!! See, now it's clear, right?

Now I need to know logarithms to discuss vaccines? Crap, I studied those AGES ago! Off to find my old math texts...

[Rrrrrachel]

That's not just because we're shot happy. There are differences in the populations of the two countries.

[SweetSilver]

Why can't we agree that we love our children, so we research, think about the costs and benefits, and make our decision based upon that?  And still have it come out differently?  And still be good, loving parents?

Can we make different decisions based on the same information and agree to disagree?  (Though that might not be much fun!)

Why is having two different outcomes from the same information (assuming it's the same) such a problem?

Folks posting on the forums does not equal any stance Mothering takes on vaccinations.  So, if there is any seeming imbalance, it is nothing in the design.

Yeah, bringing up "I love my children so I vaccinate" is incendiary whether you believe it to be or not.  And mentioning "taking it for the team" is sarcastic whether it is meant to be or not.

[Rrrrrachel]

Isn't that what she said? I'm sure non vaccinating parents love their kids too?

[tonttu]

Exactly ! Parents , who love their kids , will ( try to ) do , what they feel , is best for them ! That is , what I said ! 

[pers]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

-I would need to know how many CP deaths occur in kids that have pre-existing conditions.  I think they should be screened out of the numbers, as we should use kids with no pre-exisitng conditions.  Obviously, the risk profile for a medically fragile child is different from a healthy child.

Chickenpox vaccine is typically first given around age one.  Can you be absolutely certain that the child who appears healthy at age one will not have developed a condition that makes them medically fragile by whatever age they get chickenpox.  

But if we are going to start removing contributing factors, we need to start screening out some of the car accident deaths too.  Of the 2,136 kids who died in car accidents, 209 of them were in alcohol related crashes where the driver of the car they were riding in had been drinking.  Also, 53% of the children who died were not restrained (probably some overlap with the drunken driver category).  The numbers I'm looking at don't mention unsafe driving practices such as speeding, tailgating, talking on the phone/texting, etc., but I'd hazard to guess these may have contributed to at least a few deaths.  So if you are a sober parent with a properly restrained child who is following the rules of the road and paying proper attention to your driving, the risk of your kids dying in a car crash on the way to the doctor/clinic would be considerably less than shown by these numbers.  

Quote:

 

-One car trip every two days?  Round trip? That seems low.  I would say mine average 1 round trip per day, and we are not an exceptionally busy family.  

Yeah, since I was making up a number, I tried to deliberately lowball it against the case I was trying to make.  

But, say the average child made one full round trip in a car each day, or 365 round trips per year.  Then there would be  60,000,000 x 365 / 2136 = 10,252,809 round trips each year for each death. Compare that to the chickenpox death rate and  10,252,809/100,000 = 102.5.

So

10,252,809 round trips in a car results in 1 death

10,252,809 cases of chickenpox results in about 102 deaths

and on that basis, chickenpox would be over 100 times deadlier than the car trip to and from the doctor.  

Quote:

-Does Varicella need a booster - in which case 4 car trips ( 2 round trips) are needed?

Yes, it does.  But is the parent really making a special trip just for a chickenpox vaccine?  Or are they getting it when they would be at the clinic for other vaccines or at the doctor for a checkup anyway?  Are they going to run an errand nearby that they would otherwise run later, so thus saving a trip?   

All this is getting rather silly.  There isn't data to come up with absolutely conclusive numbers on comparative risks, and we could add and remove possible factors endlessly, but my point still stands - it is ridiculous to suggest that a child being vaccinated for chickenpox is actually being put in more danger just by being driven to the clinic for the vaccine than if they were left to get the disease naturally.  

Quote:

I do love me some math.

I might swallow my words on car trips if your math is correct, but I will not swallow my words on my concern around CP.  It is not a scary disease, and should not be included on the schedule, IMHO. (particularly given the emerging shingles issue).

________________________

BTW, my 13 and 16 year old had chicken pox. I agree the vaccine might* eventually mean less shingles - but it is an awfully long wait. We are sacrificing not one but at least 2 generations to higher shingles rates, over a disease that is usually benign in childhood.  Oh, or they could get the Shingles vaccine (Handy!  Wonder if the people who make the CP vax also make the shingles vax?  )

* I say might because:

-is there any evidence one can get shingles from the varicella vaccine?

-does the varicella vaccine wear off (we might not know yet - as CP vax is fairly new)?

No, chickenpox is not a particularly scary disease, but that does not mean it is not worth trying to prevent.  More than a hundred kids used to die a year from the disease - is that too few to bother trying to save?   What about all the kids who live but have really nasty cases requiring hospitalization or have to suffer through the pain of pox in the eyes, throat, or vagina (ugh!) or are left with permanent scarring?  Sure, it doesn't happen to most kids, but ask around, and you'll hear plenty of "I recovered just fine, but it was a horrible experience" stories from people.  Also, this board seems to be disgusted with people who mention the need for parents to take time off work to care for a sick child as a factor, but the reality is in the US with it's lacking social policy and the current economic climate, taking a week (or longer) off work can be devistating for a family already struggling to pay rent if the parent has to take it unpaid or, worse, loses their job because of it.  

I'm actually not sure myself if the chickenpox vaccine is a good thing or not.  It was a hard choice to make for my kids when considering the shingles factor (and yes, the chickenpox vaccine uses a live virus and you can get shingles after it, but the weakened vaccine virus is much less likely to result in them than the wild virus) and how long it would last (iirc, data from Japan's long use shows it lasts a very long time... but only a small portion of the population was vaccinated there, so kids were regularly being "boosted" by exposure to the wild virus there, and perhaps immunity could wane here if everyone was vaccinated and so did not have that regular exposure).  

It just bothers me when people go "pooh, pooh, chickenpox?  No big deal, why would we even bother?"  as if something is only worth trying to prevent if you are terrified of it.  The questions that matter are does the vaccine work, is the child better off being vaccinated or getting the disease naturally, and (to a lesser extent) is society better off with from a health standpoint with or without the vaccine, and (to an even lesser extent) are we better off from an economic standpoint using the vaccine or with parents missing work/losing jobs and the medical bills generated by the disease?  These things are how we decide, not just "does the thought of chickenpox leave me quaking in my boots?"

After all, if only the vaccine was 100% safe and effective and proven to give a lifetime of immunity with no shingles concerns, it would be worth giving just to prevent a week of feeling horrible and missed work/school, to my mind at least. Chickenpox may not be deadly in the vast, vast majority of cases, but it still sucks.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

Yeah, bringing up "I love my children so I vaccinate" is incendiary whether you believe it to be or not.  And mentioning "taking it for the team" is sarcastic whether it is meant to be or not.

I am the one who said "taking one for the team."  I edited it to "possibly taking one for the team." as that is more correct.

Is it sarcastic?  Within the context I said it, I meant it.  If you only vax your kid for herd immunity reasons, you are putting your child at slight risk for what you perceive to be a benefit to society.  That sounds almost worse, although it isn't sarcastic.  

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

.

Yeah, bringing up "I love my children so I vaccinate" is incendiary whether you believe it to be or not.  And mentioning "taking it for the team" is sarcastic whether it is meant to be or not.

Why is it incendiary for someone who fears losing to their child to a vaccine-preventable disease to say, "I love my children so I vaccinate?"

And why is it sarcastic for me to say that my kids and I DID take one for the team--and if I had the choice, I would never never never never ever do it again, and I wish I could take it back?
Edited by Taximom5 - 6/2/12 at 4:53pm

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

If you only vax your kid for herd immunity reasons, you are putting your child at slight risk for what you perceive to be a benefit to society. 

Who are you talking to here though?  I've never once heard anyone say they only vaccinate for herd immunity and to benefit society as if that had no benefit for their child. That just doesn't make sense.

[purslaine]

nm

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 


Why is it incendiary for someone who fears losing to their child to a vaccine-preventable disease to say, "I love my children so I vaccinate?"
And why is it sarcastic for me to say that my kids and I DID take one for the team--and if I had the choice, I would never never never never ever do it again, and I wish I could take it back?

Bringing it up-- even when the person also states that even non-vaxxers love their kids-- stating that it is the reason for vaccination, well that's a given.  We all love our kids.  So, when someone states that they made a choice because they love their kids in a thread that is debating those choices is--OK incendiary is an overstatement-- still troublesome.  And I wasn't the first to point it out.  But I was the one who said statements like that, even when followed by an admission that non-vaxxers love their kids too, can be (offensive) even when unintended.  Arguments on that line just don't help the conversation.

I was just seeing the argument go off into places that are hard--impossible-- to argue with or against.  I was trying (feebly, I'll admit) to express that I was seeing the thread get a bit personal and ....testy.  From all sides.  

I didn't mean to get it even further off topic.  I'll go back to the sidelines.......

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

I know. I felt exactly like you when I first joined in. Most Mothering style parenting choices I believe are well based in mainstream scientific research (if not having yet gone mainstream in the population). I actually think that Mothering, in linking itself to anti-vaxers, calls into question all the rest of it's parenting style, which is a massive shame, and it turned me off the community for a while (although I still kept doing everything the way I felt was right!). We all know the world could use more breast fed, co-slept, worn babies, and definitely more cloth diapering! Choosing not to vaccinate has nothing to do with those other choices and we're just as much a part of that natural parenting community. I suspect in fact the silent majority.

Have you thoguht about a subtle pro-vax line in your signature. Doesn't need to be the only thing there, but just something to tell other mothers like us that it's OK to be here.   

Yay, Prosciencemum, thanks for being here! You've made me more comfortable here.

I'm not really a signature person. But I will think about it if it makes other moms like me feel more comfortable.

Part of the reason I vaccinate is because I believe herd immunity is best for society and all children--not just mine! Of course I take the welfare of the community at large into account! My taxes pay for the healthcare of all Canadians, and the education of all of Canada's young people. I don't see why I can't follow public health standards that help keep all of us safe.

I just wanted to comment about that, since some people have stated that the decision to vaccinate or not is ultimately just about your child, and even people who vaccinate must feel that way. I don't.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

I didn't mean to get it even further off topic.  I'll go back to the sidelines.......

You don't have to go back to the sidelines.  People do get testy on this forum, it is OK  (helpful, at least to me) when someone who is not overly engaged in the bickering comes on and says what they see.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

My taxes pay for the healthcare of all Canadians, and the education of all of Canada's young people. I don't see why I can't follow public health standards that help keep all of us safe.

Mine, too.  And I do not begrudge it - even the money that goes towards vaxxes   I like health care to be free even if I do not use it.

I am not sure why you mentioned education.  I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

You can follow the vaccine schedule if you want.  As a non-vaxxer, I do not really care if individuals choose to vax or not. I understand people can look at the same research and come to different conclusion for their family.   I care, deeply, that people do not feel forced to vax and that people can make an informed choice on the matter.  

Edited by purslaine - 6/2/12 at 7:17pm