June Chit Chat - Page 3 « Back to Group Discussions

[seraf]

Shay has demonstrated some memory for a few months now, so I don't see why some things might not make it into the long term memory from a very young age. Certain feelings or scenes that stood out, for example, might be remembered for a very long time. I remember unhappy things like bad dreams, car accidents and fears and good things like tickles, games and evaporation lessons from my dad (wth?). I don't remember being taught the ABCs, I wonder if that's what they are talking about people remembering after age two, things that can be taught and demonstrated.

[birdhappy85]

I have some very early memories too. Oddly enough, both of them dealt with being scared of the height I was at and worried of falling. I know one of the memories was when I was < 2 years old. My dad put me in the baby seat attached to his bicycle and took me for a ride. I distinctly remember the fear I had when I was belted into the seat at an angle and the bike felt unstable as he hopped onto it and drove off. The other time was a memory of my dad carrying me down the staircase at our old house. That one was so random... I have other early memories too but nothing about being in my crib. My parents totally practiced CIO too. Although I don't support CIO in their way, I don't feel that I had any negative effects from my baby sleeping days. The crib wasn't scary for me. But I know some people believe the effects could manifest in other ways so memories aren't necessarily a good test of that.

[birdhappy85]

Hey Sara, you inspired me to shower with the baby (I recall you saying a while ago that you showered with Shay). It was way too fun!  I'm going to do that more often. Sora LOVED it. Much easier than killing my back bending over the tub (if I'm not in the mood to bathe with her). I'm not much of a bath person.

[Jaimee]

Episodic memories like you're describing are somewhat different than explicit or implicit memories, I believe.  In order to recall events over long periods and describe them you need the language to do so.  When you have this language ability will depend on many things.  So some will be able to retain memories from an earlier age than others.  I'm sure the nature of the event has some bearing on this as well.

Things like increasing attention span and language acquisition are forms of implicit memory, which develops much earlier.  This is what you are likely seeing in Shay.

[MrsKatie]

Originally Posted by seraf 

Shay has demonstrated some memory for a few months now, so I don't see why some things might not make it into the long term memory from a very young age. Certain feelings or scenes that stood out, for example, might be remembered for a very long time. I remember unhappy things like bad dreams, car accidents and fears and good things like tickles, games and evaporation lessons from my dad (wth?). I don't remember being taught the ABCs, I wonder if that's what they are talking about people remembering after age two, things that can be taught and demonstrated.

My father has a vivid memory from when he was 7 months old and they used radiation to zap his tonsils (awesome).  He remembers lying on the table with a giant metal machine looming over him and moving towards his head.  So, yes - I'm sure that some early traumatic or especially intense images might remain permanently.

Christina - Please, please get help.  My concern is that you seem resigned to these feelings.  This is not how life needs to be, this is not how you need to feel.  You have options here, you have a choice.  I understand the hesitation, or even unwillingness, to take meds.  But you need help.  We can't do it for you.  Your husband and your baby need you.  They are suffering along with you.  Like Sara said, depression and other kinds of mental illness impacts more people than just you.  Your family and friends are hurting, too.  I don't say this to guilt-trip you, but I feel a little desperate for you.  I understand depression.  I really, really do.  I have held a loaded gun to my head.  I let it get that bad.  And for what?  I wish I had gotten help sooner; I wish I had gone on meds sooner.  Please, please get help.  We're all rooting for you.

[dashley111]

Originally Posted by birdhappy85 

I have some very early memories too. Oddly enough, both of them dealt with being scared of the height I was at and worried of falling. I know one of the memories was when I was < 2 years old. My dad put me in the baby seat attached to his bicycle and took me for a ride. I distinctly remember the fear I had when I was belted into the seat at an angle and the bike felt unstable as he hopped onto it and drove off. The other time was a memory of my dad carrying me down the staircase at our old house. That one was so random... I have other early memories too but nothing about being in my crib. My parents totally practiced CIO too. Although I don't support CIO in their way, I don't feel that I had any negative effects from my baby sleeping days. The crib wasn't scary for me. But I know some people believe the effects could manifest in other ways so memories aren't necessarily a good test of that.

Mine was being scared of height also!  My mom says I could not have been more than 8 months old because that is how I was when we moved from the aprartment I can describe.  But, I was in a baby carrier (like, the car seat kind) being carried up the stairs, facing backwards and looking down.  I am able to remember that, along with the color of the door we walked into and the plant sitting right inside the door (it was big).

Christina I agree with Katie when she says "I feel desperate for you".  That is exactly it.  Its a caring kind of "I wish you would seek help".  Every single one of us would LOVE for you to be able to enjoy life right now.

[Jaimee]

I totally believe that some people are simply more intuitive and can have the types of memories you ladies are talking about.   But here are some articles I have come across stating more or less what I was trying to impart in my earlier posts.

Dissociations in Infant Memory: Rethinking the Development of Implicit and Explicit Memory

Rovee-Collier, C.   

Department of Psychology, Busch Campus, Rutgers, State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick, NJ 08903, United States

 

View references (280)

Abstract

Extending the Jacksonian principle of the hierarchical development and dissolution of function to the development and dissolution of memory, researchers have concluded that implicit (procedural) memory is a primitive system, functional shortly after birth, that processes information automatically, whereas explicit (declarative) memory matures late in the 1st year and mediates the conscious recollection of a prior event. Support for a developmental hierarchy has only been inferred from the memory performance of adults with amnesia on priming and recognition-recall tests in response to manipulations of different independent variables. This article reviews evidence that very young infants exhibit memory dissociations like those exhibited by adults with normal memory on analogous memory tests in response to manipulations of the same independent variables. These data demonstrate that implicit and explicit memory follow the same developmental timetable and challenge the utility of conscious recollection as the defining characteristic of explicit memory.

Memory and trauma impact: A development approach  ( Review )

[A memória e o impacto do trauma: Numa perspectiva desenvolvimental]

Moura, M.^a, Estrada, J.^b  

^a  Serviço de Psiquiatria da Infância e Adolescência, Hospital Dona Estefânia, CHLC, Lisboa, Portugal
^b  Serviço de Psiquiatria e Adolescência, Hospital São Francisco Xavier (CHLO), Lisboa, Portugal

 

View references (16)

Abstract

The purpose of this article is to review the main neuroanatomic structures and the neurotransmission process involved at memory. Memory is dynamic based on the reunion of aspects of neuronal activation, in a process based on the individual experiences. It will be described the importance of limbic regions and their interaction during processing, codification and consolidation of a memory - each one related with neuronal rebuild. Further the authors describe the memory types known (explicit and implicit memories); the characteristics and their progress during normal development. It will be addressed other issues like child amnesia, retrieval and trauma. Forgetting is one of the essential features at explicit memory. Many studies describe a U inverted effect at memories with emotional value. Events with moderate or elevated emotional intensity are printed as important (by limbic structures like amygdala and orbito-frontal cortex) being more easily recorded. If the experience is very intense the explicit memory codification processing at hippocampus will be inhibited and as a consequence also does the retrieval. Meanwhile the implicit memory will remain and may constitute pathologic memories. The psychological trauma blocks the explicit memory processing which will jeopardize the cortical consolidation of the traumatic experience. Focus on trauma an important question is memory precision and the impact of trauma, on a neurophysiologic and psychopathologic way. Trauma and stress aren't inoffensive because their presence will induce pathological neuronal rebuilding (myelination, synapse formation, neurogenesis) at main memory structures like amygdala or hippocampus. When the nature of the changes is irreversible the explicit memory processing, learning and Psychiatry syndromes may arouse, for example: Mood and Anxiety disorders (including Posttraumatic Stress Disorder); Personality Disorders; Dissociative disorders; Psychosis. © 2010 CELOM.

Development of memory in infancy and early childhood

[Entwicklung des Gedächtnisses bei Säuglingen und Kleinkindern]

Knopf, M. , Goertz, C., Kolling, T.  

Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main, Institut für Psychologie, Georg-Voigt-Straße 8, 60054 Frankfurt/Main, Germany

 

View references (33)

Abstract

This review paper gives an overview about the ontogeny of implicit and explicit memory in infancy and toddlerhood. Most memory researchers in developmental psychology come to the conclusion that while implicit memory performance is already found in infants in the first weeks or even the first days of life, evidence for explicit memory can only be found in the second half of the first year. In addition, there is a lot of (theoretical) consideration that explicit memory in babies and toddlers reflects general knowledge, which means that early explicit memory performances are based on semantic memory. Episodic memory as defined by Tulving (2001), which means the remembering of own, past experiences (mental time travel), is based on several precursors (e.g., development of self, multiple models of representation). Due to these preconditions episodic memory is only found at the end of the second year of toddlers. Key words: Ontogeny of memory, development in infancy and toddlerhood, implicit and explicit memory, deferred imitation, knowledge vs. remembering. © Hogrefe Verlag Göttingen 2011.

[LunaLady]

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Edited by LunaLady - 6/25/12 at 10:44pm

[jbk21]

Is there something we can do?  Anyone we can call?  Can you ask your husband to get you help?  No matter how small the first step is, or who has to do it for you, it is progress.  You are brave, Christina.  You can do this.

[jbk21]

I also wanted to add- you are already heading in the right direction, Christina.  You are talking to us about it.  We aren't going to let you go backwards- just keep moving toward progress.  It is going to get better.  It really is.  I promise.  I had thoughts like "my family would be better off without me."  It never got to the point where I really felt like I wanted to harm myself, more like "what good am I to them?"  But those thoughts that made me realize I was not okay.  I don't think like that anymore, thank goodness.  Please keep moving forward, Christina. Take the next steps, whether you call a PPD support line, your midwife, your doctor, anyone.  Talk to your husband, a trusted friend, whoever can help you right now.  Have them make some calls for you if you need to.

 It really, truly will get better.  Just stay on the road to progress.  

[Jaimee]

Christina, with your previous posts I could still think to myself that you might just be having a particularly rough transition to parenthood that would ease over time.  But with your last post where you speak of having suicidal thoughts, there is no question that help is necessary.  Several other people have had sage words for you regarding depression and getting help.  Reach out to your dh and get him to call someone that can help.  Now.  Please!  And keep talking to us.. we are all here for you! 

[LunaLady]

I think my husband is done with me, honestly. I'm pretty sure he's given up on me already. 

[Jaimee]

If you feel you can't talk to him right now then a friend, a relative, a hotline...

KING COUNTY

Serving King County

Crisis Clinic of King County

24 Hour Crisis Line

• [phone]
• 1-866-4CRISIS
  (1-866-427-4747)
• TDD Line
  [phone]

[jbk21]

Oh honey, I don't know why you think he has given up on you (obviously I don't know all the details of your relationship) but I hope that isn't the case.  What about your parents?  in-laws?  friends?

[birdhappy85]

Christina - We are here for you!  It's so great already that you're sharing this with us. This isn't easy stuff to talk about to anyone. I want to stress that I guarantee your husband has not given up on you. Lean on him if you need to. Even if he acts angry or ticked off. He is your greatest support, and you've shared with us before just how wonderful he is to you. Let him be there for you. No matter how frustrated and helpless he may feel, he would want you alive and well. Period. My DH has had to deal with suicidality from me several times early on in our relationship and I never would've gotten better had I not reached out to him and had him help me get help when I couldn't help myself. He drove me to the hospital once. And coming from experience here, please try everything in your power to not let the suicidality take action... I've had suicide attempts as a teenager, and I wish I had been able to advocate for myself enough to get the help I needed before taking such action to end my life. It was insanely traumatic for me and everyone around me. I would give anything to go back in time and change how those days played out. As much as I feel like crap for having hurt everyone around me, I still survived and they healed from it. Nobody heals after actually losing someone to suicide. Not even a baby. I don't say that to piss you off. I say that because my therapist once said that to me and followed it with statistics on how much higher the chances are that a child will commit suicide if they lose a parent to suicide - no matter the age of the child at the time it happens. I was SO ANGRY WITH HER for saying that to me. But once I got over the anger, I realized why she said it to me. It wasn't to make me feel guilty. That's not why I'm saying it to you either. Please get help. And we'll keep talking to you here for as long as you need! We love you, girl!

[dashley111]

Im not terribly close, but im local enough that if you absolutely NEED help I can help you find resources, pr whatever you need. Short post from my phone, but to me it seems like absolutely everything you are feeling is very classic in PPD. You are absolutely not alone.

[dashley111]

I also want to add that there is a scenario in life where Rhyko is 2, and you can look at him while he plays and feel love in your heart- and you CAN love your life, and have fun as a family.  Those things are totally possible.  By seeking help for yourself your making that a reality for you, for Rhyko, and for your DH.

[jbk21]

Originally Posted by dashley111 

I also want to add that there is a scenario in life where Rhyko is 2, and you can look at him while he plays and feel love in your heart- and you CAN love your life, and have fun as a family.  Those things are totally possible.  By seeking help for yourself your making that a reality for you, for Rhyko, and for your DH.

Absolutely that.  Believe it, Christina!  We're all here for you and want this for you.

[CDsMom1031]

You know, it really probably is doable. I just need to suck it up and do it... Like you ladies said. It WILL suck at first, but we'll adjust. Just like I adjusted to counting calories, and that's paid off tremendously!

We really don't spend money. Like a lot of you, we aren't shoppers. We lounge at home and dress up when we need to, but for the most part, we're a jeans/t-shirt family. I can't tell you the last time we went clothes shopping. Conner has more clothes than I do, 10-1.

Out of our 17 bills, 2 of them are hospital bills from Conner, 7 of them are reoccuring bills (Utilities, mortgage, etc.), and 8 (GASP!) are bills we could eliminate. That's my goal. DH makes roughly $3000 (Give or take, a lot of his money is decided by OT) a month, and I make roughly $900.

We have rougly $2300 in bills. Only $1500 of that is reoccuring debt. If we could get rid of our debt, we'd live so comfortably, even WITHOUT me working.

*Sigh* I've got some work to do. I gotta figure this stuff out, LOL.

[Becky Wheeler]

Hey, good thing is, TAXES! They help a lot! We paid some of our debt with them and it saved our asses as far as paychecks go. Have you calculated how quickly you'd be done with debt, once you've eliminated the unneeded bills? I'm a nut about that stuff. I like to predict how much and when. It helps a lot.