3 Year Old Might Have Pertussis and 4.5 Month Old is Unvaccinated

[lactatinggirl]

Alright, so here's our situation. 

My brother was coughing a while back. He went into the doctor and they diagnosed him with pertussis, though he doesn't have insurance so they didn't do an actual test. 

A few weeks ago, my husband developed a cough. This was before we had even heard about my brother's doctor visit and we thought it was allergies (which he was also suffering from pretty severely). My two daughters and I didn't show any symptoms, so we went on assuming it must be allergies. His cough continued, but of course he never made a "whooping" sound (most adults do not). He is still coughing about once an hour. A big hacking cough that he's super annoyed with, but he's fine. We decided that he must have whooping cough, but by the time we made this decision he was already beyond the really contagious stage, so there was no point in getting antibiotics. We assumed that the girls and I weren't getting it because of the fact that I'm fairly sure I had it 10 years ago (cough that lasted months, doctors never figured out why, but it was before they started to recognize that the vaccine wears off, so I'm guessing that's why they didn't think it was pertussis). From what I've read, the smallest of babies used to be protected from it by their mother's breast milk because of the antibodies she had from getting it in her childhood. 

Yesterday, my 3 year old started coughing. She has had all of her DTaP shots (though I don't plan on giving her boosters now that I know better, but that's besides the point). She recently stopped nursing (a little over a week ago), so I don't know if that made her more susceptible. I also feel a bit of a tickle in my throat, which mades me doubt what I thought was immunity. 

So, I don't know what to do about my 4 month old. She's not coughing at all, but since she's around my 3 year old and myself 24 hours a day, she's definitely exposed. She's nursing exclusively, so she's getting antibodies that way. I'm also going to go to the store today and get some vitamin C and elderberries for my daughter and myself to take and get our immune systems the best they can be. 

I've cancelled my daughter's 4 month well check (she's actually 4.5 months, but the doctor was out of town for a bit) so that we won't expose all the kids at the doctor's office. I'm wondering if I should get the antibiotic for myself and my older daughter to lessen the risk of spreading it to my younger daughter, though I know the chances of her not getting it when everyone in the house has it are slim to none. I'm also afraid that the doctor will try to push giving her the DTaP vaccine (which I'm totally not okay with) or antibiotics (which I'm not happy about, but realize they have their place). What would you do?

[Rrrrrachel]

I would take that baby to the doctor the very first second she even thought about coughing.  Other than that I'm not sure what you can do.

[Asiago]

I found the following sites helpful on this subject:

http://beyondvaccination.com/showthread.php?349-Got-whooping-cough-The-symptoms-Vitamin-C-and-general-management.

same site:

http://beyondvaccination.com/forumdisplay.php?44-Pertussis

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/193x/ormerod-mj-etal-canadian_med_assn_j-1937-v37-n3-p268.htm

As I recall the following product seemed the high quality and the most concentrated.http://www.nutribiotic.com/ascorbic-acid-8oz.html

I purchased on Amazon.com

As PP posted said, do not hesitate to seek medical advice. From what I understand, newborns tend to have the most difficulty as the cilia has been temporarily damaged from the Pertussis toxin, therefore without any abdominal strength to cough up the mucous, it can create secondary bacterial infection. How to expel the mucous from a newborn is included in the first link given above. Though your baby is not a newborn I would still read it. As mentioned if I were you I'd seek medical advice when you feel it is needed.

It's great that baby is exclusively breastfed.  I really wish I knew the percentage of cases of pertussis among infants who were also exclusively breastfed. 

Good luck, hope all goes well.

Edited by Asiago - 6/6/12 at 1:44pm

[nukuspot]

A person who has pertussis is still contagious during the stage 1-2 of pertussis (which is about 3-6 weeks).  They are no longer contagious after 5 days of abx treatment at any stage in the illness.

if it were me, I would:

1.)  Go to the doctor and I would even pay out of pocket for a diagnostic test for pertussis (PCR is best but nasalpharyngeal swab will do) to dx pertussis if your insurance didn't cover it (most will.)  It takes 3-5 days to come back.  I'd culture the 3 y/o or your husband (or both.)

2.)  If positive I would do abx treatment for everyone in the house (except the baby) to try to reduce the chances she will get it.  I would have a prescription on hand and ready to be filled and given to the baby if she even develops a runny nose.  Abx do not shorten the length/severity of pertussis in most cases because the person has not gone to the doctor until the disease has passed the first stage and has already damaged the lung cilla.  In early detection, it can and will make a difference by killing the bacteria before it gets to the 2nd stage where it damages the cilla.

Also, active immunity from naturally aquired pertussis wanes after 5-10 years, so if you had it 10 years ago I'd consider yourself a possible carrier as well and treat with abx accordingly.

So sorry this is happening!  If it wasn't for the little baby I'd say you could do SA and wait and see, but IMO I wouldn't take chances with a little one in the house.

[lactatinggirl]

From what I've read, the antibiotics only decrease the time period that you're contagious, but they don't actually decrease the severity. There are some who speculate that they could help with severity, but it's not proven. Still, that could be as you said because of the fact that people don't realize they have it until it's too late for help. I don't like the idea of messing with our bodies' balance of bacteria for no reason, but if it's for a good reason I'm totally okay with it. I also don't like the idea of giving my baby an antibiotic before she's even sick, but that is a good idea to keep it around just in case. 

Right now we're all taking sodium ascorbate to bowl tolerance. I'm also putting some essential oils in the humidifier at night and it seemed to help. I plan on making some cough syrup today too. 

I guess I'm just afraid that if we go into the doctor that they're going to go bonkers because she's unvaccinated. They've never questioned our decision, but we also haven't had an open discussion about it. They just ask if we're doing any vaccines today and I say no. We've also only seen this new pediatrician once before (same practice, but a closer office) and she was great before, but who knows how she'll react to us being sick now. 

Nukuspot, could you send me a link about the antibiotic decreasing the severity if you have one? 

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by lactatinggirl 

I guess I'm just afraid that if we go into the doctor that they're going to go bonkers because she's unvaccinated. They've never questioned our decision, but we also haven't had an open discussion about it. They just ask if we're doing any vaccines today and I say no. We've also only seen this new pediatrician once before (same practice, but a closer office) and she was great before, but who knows how she'll react to us being sick now. 

It's very sad you have that worry. Your Doctor has a duty of care to help you and your family stay healthy. I would definitely call and tell them you suspect whooping cough in an unvaccinated child (they may want to isolate you from the healthy children in the waiting room, since even vaccinated children can catch whooping cough), but I am sure they will see you and treat you respectfully. You might want to say upfront if you do not wish this incident to cause them to have a discussion with you about the benefits of vaccinating. Although to my mind if you are convinced you've done the right thing having that conversation and listening to their point of view can only be more information. I realise many of you will disagree (and I think I'm on the wrong board, so I'll stop). 

[nukuspot]

LG--- I agree it's common knowledge that abx will not help pertussis be a milder case once the coughing starts. That is because the damage to the villa has already started. But when it is in the early stages it can help reduce the severity by killing the bacteria before the toxin does much damage to the cilla. You can find this info freely all over, but I will post a link to the CDC for you. http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/diagnosis-treatment.html

You are lucky because you have the option of found some early treatment. Most cases the abx are prescribed too late. I think you would want to do everything you can too to try to prevent the baby from getting it, even if it means having to go to the doctor and endure a vaccine lecture. I'm a non vaxxer and I would in your case for sure!

[nukuspot]

Sorry for the typos I'm on my phone and the auto correct spellcheck kills me. Cila not villa.

[lactatinggirl]

I see the points you're making. Thank you both. If I suspect that my 4 month old is getting sick, I'll definitely take her in. I'm not going to take my 3 year old in because she's already moving beyond the mild stage, so I don't think the antibiotics would help her. I'm also thinking that at the point, with her dad coughing for weeks and her sister coughing for the last week that if she's getting it, she's getting it. It would be pretty unlikely to prevent exposure even if we did get the antibiotics immediately, let alone now. Hopefully she's getting lots of my antibodies. :-)

Side note: I find it very ironic that my fully DTaP vax'ed 3 year old is exhibiting symptoms before my entirely unvax'd 4 month old.

[Louisw]

Pertussis and every disease of the lungs that I know of responds exceedingly well in prevention to a complete repletion of Vitamin D. IMO shoot for at least 60 ng/ml for every member of the family, keep that level year around and your families LUNG problems to include pertussis may be gone.

Your child with pertussis probably needs large amounts of vitamin C. Since vitamin C is completely non toxic I would dose him with vitamin C in judicious amounts, starting with one gram, until he got loose bowels. Since fighting disease can eat up a LOT of C. It may take MANY grams of vitamin C to achieve bowel tolerance.

Find a doctor who is comfortable using large doses of vitamin C to CURE disease if you are uncomfortable doing it yourself. While looking a gram of C once in awhile may keep your child from more harm. But really achieving bowel tolerance is not hard to do. You just keeping giving the gram of C until your child gets the runs.
 

[emmy526]

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Beyondconformity-Whooping-cough-treatment.pdf

Quote:

If you use antibiotics, you

can just about guarantee your child WILL BE sicker.

Put simply, in terms of the infection process itself, antibiotics do not change the outcome of infection in any

way, or make it better.... something confirmed by the 2007 Cochrane Review. 

[Louisw]

"Put simply, in terms of the infection process itself, antibiotics do not change the outcome of infection in any

way, or make it better.... something confirmed by the 2007 Cochrane Review."

Yes and the anti-biotics destroy beneficial gut flora weakening the immune system.

In addition anti-biotics present so many problems. You may find if you stop "vaccinating" the "need" for the abs will drop to ZERO.

“It is astounding to learn that the average child of nine in this country has already had 17 runs of antibiotics in his lifetime! Why is that a problem? The word is attenuation. Attenuation means that the bacteria weren't killed; only half-killed. There are two reasons why this may have happened: 1) Most people stop taking the antibiotic as soon as they feel better. Isn't that true? They think they're fine, but what they just did was allow some bacteria to survive in a mutated form which is now resistant to the antibiotic they just took. Which means that next time the drug won't work.  2) The bacteria mutated and survived the full course of antibiotics.” The Doctor Within, Note there is NO way for the human race to win this game

“90% of upper respiratory infections, including children's ear infections, are viral, and antibiotics don't treat viral infection. More than 40% of about 50 million prescriptions for antibiotics each year in physicians' offices were inappropriate." CDC

“Vitamin C is known to contribute to the development of antibodies and the neutralization of toxins in the building of natural immunity to infectious diseases. There is a very potent chemotherapeutic action of ascorbic acid when given in massive repeated doses, 500 to 1,000 mg (hourly), preferably intravenously or intramuscularly. When thus administered the effect in acute infectious processes is favorably comparable to that of the sulfonamides or the mycelial antibiotics, but with the great advantage of complete freedom from toxic or allergic reactions."  Doctor William J. McCormick 1955

“Vitamin D is a potent antibiotic. Instead of directly killing bacteria and viruses, the steroid hormone under question increases the body's production of a remarkable class of proteins, called antimicrobial peptides. The 200 known antimicrobial peptides directly and rapidly destroy the cell walls of bacteria, fungi, and viruses, including the influenza virus, and play a key role in keeping the lungs free of infection.”  Doctor John Cannell Vitamin D Council

“Herbal medicine aims at the basic cause of the problem not just superficial symptoms. A physician may give an antibiotic drug that clears up an infection but it does not stop the next one because your immune system is not working properly. Someone using herbs tries to correct the weakened immune system so the infection does not come back.” Kerry Bone, founder MediHerb Australia

“In neither case are the bacteria causing illness. They are trying to prevent illness by breaking down the dying tissue. Whether it's rotting yogurt in a blocked colon, a dead coyote in the forest, or infected liver cells in the body of an alcoholic, bacteria are just doing what they do best: cleaning up. When the bacteria are "diagnosed" as the cause of the illness, rather than a sign of the illness, the medical approach is to try and kill them. But that's like killing the garbage men. The garbage remains. Understanding such a simple concept is pivotal in arriving at a holistic outlook toward health.” The Doctor Within

"So in summary with Garlic's Allicin you have a broad spectrum of activity against bacteria, virus, and protozoa. No resistance can be built up so it is an absolutely safe product to use. It has no effect on mammalian cells, and no effect on the lactic acid bacteria." Raw garlic Anti-Microbial Supreme

"A short-term use of high-dose Vitamin A -- 400,000 units daily for up to one week for average 70kg adults can be useful as an anti-infective measure." Doctor Garry Gordon

"Kyolic liquid is the perfect form of liquid natural antibiotics. I have used Kyolic in doses of up to 2 full bottles a day successfully in treating antibiotic resistant pneumonia. Kyolic always helps manage any form of infection. If Kyolic is also applied directly inside the ear, it helps most ear infections. The dosage recommendation is to take it diluted 50% warm water every 2 hours. Use at least 1-2 tsp 4 times a day in helping most infection." Doctor Garry Gordon

"The most cost effective of all the nutrients or herbs that you can take to enhance the immune system is high doses of vitamin C and garlic. Plan to dramatically increase the dose when you feel particularly stressed, or fear you are coming down with something."  Doctor Garry Gordon

"Iodine has anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic, anti-viral, and anti-cancer properties. Without it, you are at risk for cancer of the breast, prostate, ovaries, thyroid, and uterus."  Doctor Al Sears MD

[Kara13Taylor]

3 years ago my 3 week old twin daughter was diagnosed with pertussis and was hospitalized for 3 weeks, it is not joke. My pediatric said they don't carry the actual test to confirm Pertussis.

[Asiago]

Thank you for this post above LouisW (very interesting).

[emmy526]

Did you ask them why not,  since there seems to be a national epidemic of it around the country?  Seems kind of negligent for a pedi office NOT to have a pertussis test handy and available.  Makes me wonder what other kinds of tests they don't do, and then misdiagnose children.  

Originally Posted by Kara13Taylor 

3 years ago my 3 week old twin daughter was diagnosed with pertussis and was hospitalized for 3 weeks, it is not joke. My pediatric said they don't carry the actual test to confirm Pertussis.

[Mirzam]

Interesting article by Hilary Butler on PCR whooping cough tests: false positives, unnecessary antibiotics and inaccurate statistics

http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/_blog/Hilary%27s_Desk/post/Pertussis_MOH_changes_the_diagnosis_criteria_-_31_May,_2012/

[Asiago]

Fascinating Mirzam! It really is not so cut and dried when one hears about these details. The Dartmouth story is really enlightening (regarding the PCR results).

[MrsKoehn]

Originally Posted by lactatinggirl 

I see the points you're making. Thank you both. If I suspect that my 4 month old is getting sick, I'll definitely take her in. I'm not going to take my 3 year old in because she's already moving beyond the mild stage, so I don't think the antibiotics would help her. I'm also thinking that at the point, with her dad coughing for weeks and her sister coughing for the last week that if she's getting it, she's getting it. It would be pretty unlikely to prevent exposure even if we did get the antibiotics immediately, let alone now. Hopefully she's getting lots of my antibodies. :-)
Side note: I find it very ironic that my fully DTaP vax'ed 3 year old is exhibiting symptoms before my entirely unvax'd 4 month old.

So how are they doing?

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by emmy526 

Did you ask them why not,  since there seems to be a national epidemic of it around the country?  Seems kind of negligent for a pedi office NOT to have a pertussis test handy and available.  Makes me wonder what other kinds of tests they don't do, and then misdiagnose children.  

The medical Industry is IMO taking the entirely WRONG approach with pertussis.They are not asking the simple question "Why is it that babies under six months are so at risk for serious pertussis?" Yet everyone else seems to be relatively fine.

Lets see, how did the four month old baby get to the physiological state she is in?

o Her mother (average) had very low vitamin D levels before impregnation

o Her mother had very low vitamin D levels during pregnancy. This is largely so because the CDC has her scared to death of the sun and her ped is so ignorant of gestational vitamin D requirements he thinks the CDC's recommendation of 600 IU of vitamin D/day is just fine.

o Her fetal form was STARVED for vitamin D which is REQUIRED for Neurodevelopment

o She was born STARVED for vitamin D

o During the first three months of her life the mother's milk she was receiving was COMPLETELY devoid of vitamin D because her mother was not receiving the 6800 IU of vitamin D3/day. or better yet its SUN equivalent that is required to produce mother's milk with vitamin D,.

So now a simple very easy to defeat bacteria comes along; very easy to defeat IF you are not starved for vitamin D.

 “Vitamin D is a potent antibiotic. Instead of directly killing bacteria and viruses, vitamin D increases the body's production of a remarkable class of proteins, called antimicrobial peptides. The 200 known antimicrobial peptides directly and rapidly destroy the cell walls of bacteria, fungi, and viruses, including the influenza virus, and play a key role in keeping the lungs free of infection.”  Doctor John Cannell Vitamin D Council

So that is the very simple answer to pertussis for EVERYONE; but your little vitamin D starved baby is most at risk.

Not only is the SUN and vitamin D the answer for pertussis but for virtually ALL LUNG problems. The defensive mechanism is exactly the same for defeating TB, COPD, asthma, and all the lung problems you can think of. The problem pathogen is intercepted IMMEDIATELY in the upper lung and upper respiratory tract by the antimicrobial peptides and defeated. End of story.

Now I ask you what is the Medical Industry to do if things are so simple and FREE; and FREE and FREE???

The simplest answer for your new born is vitamin D3 drops. Please do not use the medical industry's D2 it is toxic. You dose by body weight and IMO shoot for a blood level of 60 ng/ml. Please learn enough about vitamin D to do this yourself. The last thing you want is a dose from a ped who is completely clueless about vitamin D. He is the "blank" who put your baby in the risk of pertussis position. And for gosh sakes take your nude self and your nude baby out in the NOON SUN. Find out how to do this safely WITHOUT gunk on your skins.

"Mainstream medicine's persistent failure to recognize and ensure adequate vitamin D levels has resulted in epidemic deficiency 87% of adults by recent estimates. Given seasonal flu viruses' ability to endlessly mutate and the exorbitant cost to the public for each new round of vaccination, this persistent "oversight" borders on the criminal. Practicing clinicians have achieved efficacy with daily vitamin D supplements of 5,000 IU or higher - virtually eliminating influenza infections even among vulnerable populations."   Life Extension, Note IMO it does NOT border on the criminal it is criminal

“Using the strongest language published to date, the group of Vitamin D experts condemned the current (1997) Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) recommendations for vitamin D, stating "The 1997 FNB recommendations offend the most basic principles of pharmacology and toxicology, leading us to conclude that the current official guidelines and limitations for vitamin D intakes are scientifically indefensible."

“Studies have found the influenza virus is present in the population year-around; why is it a wintertime illness? Even the common cold got its name because it is common in cold weather and rare in the summer. Vitamin D blood levels are at their highest in the summer but reach their lowest levels during the flu and cold season. Could such a simple explanation explain these mysteries?” Doctor John Cannell Vitamin D Council, Note this is explosive please think about it awhile

[lactatinggirl]

Originally Posted by MrsKoehn 

So how are they doing?

Hey sorry it's been so long since I posted! DH and DD1 both coughed for over a month, but thankfully that's over. DD2 and I never got even the smallest symptom. I'm going to assume it's because I likely had it when I was a teenager and still had enough immunity to pass on those antibodies through my milk. Makes me sad that DD1 weaned RIGHT before all this!