Mothering Mamas Who Thoughtfully Vaccinate - Page 9

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

Not sure what your link is to, but for me, my reason for reading no further on that blog is not just tone, but the tone was the first red flag for me.  The second was taking no comments.  The third was their (I believe it's two moms, but maybe more? - doesn't matter) statement that they want to hear from moms who vax.  So, they think anyone who doesn't vax "has their wires crossed," they are not willing to field comments & they want to hear not from everyone but from moms who are like them only.  Nope, not worth my time.  That's not a discussion; it's a soapbox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 
On the other hand, Mama24-7, you absolutely don't have to hang around on a blog you don't like. I think the link was posted here for mamas who might be interested.

Thanks & I do know that!   I am interested, which is why I'm subbed to this thread & I clicked the link.  As I said when I replied after that link was posted: "I'm always interested to read what others are thinking & feeling which is why I clicked on the blog. "  

I'm guessing no one is interested in answering my questions.  Maybe the author of that blog post would come here to answer.  I'm thinking no; clearly she's not interested in a discussion. :-/

Best wishes,

Sus

[erigeron]

I thought two shots at once seemed to work pretty well and will probably do the same at the next visit (I'm thinking of going back in a month to get the Hib booster; don't want to wait 3 months at this time of year). I never nursed through shots, but have nursed after. I hold her on my lap and keep her from moving--they always want to put her on the table, but it seems easier to me to keep her still against my body, and surely it's cozier for her. 

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

We want to be careful to avoid using too much tone argument here. I would listen to this woman's opinion if only she had a better tone is a pretty dangerous ground to walk on. For more on tone arguments, this is a good primer: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument.

Thanks for posting that link. That's really interesting. 

Sus (Mama 24/7) - why don't you start another thread with those questions. I think we'd rather just keep this thread debate free as I believe we have agreed with the moderators. :) I actually thought they were rhetorical questions (ie. you didn't really want an answer) - back to tone, sometimes it's really hard to tell just from text! 

I haven't nursed through shots, but I almost always nursed immediately following the shot, either in the room where they get them, or later in the waiting room (you're supposed to wait for a while anyway in case of immediate reactions). I am sure there's been research that sweet tastes (including breast milk) help reduce pain in infants - certainly it's comforting and my babies seemed to be content and forget about the shot almost instantly. 

[rightkindofme]

Our doctors office won't do two at once (you work with one tech at a time) and they require that the children be laying on a table by themselves. My kids just doesn't have the fortitude for two in a row like that.

[~Adorkable~]

there was actually a good study that looked at body position, feeding sweets, nursing, parent attitude, comforting, lap sitting and how all of those things did or didn't factor in the to the pain upset that the child seem to be having.

some big conclusions that came from the study:

• sitting up was much better than laying down, i think they mentioned something specifically about having your legs bent at the hip, so as to be a in more protective feeling position with regards to your stomach and torso, that makes a lot of sense to me, i feel very exposed when i lay totally flat and that feeling would probably make we experience pain differently

• sweet things helped, breast milk even in a bottle (as different from formula) helped even more, while breastfeeding directly helped the most because of the other cuddle factors they assumed.  All these type of things help considerably more the younger the child was, i think the study went from newborn to well into toddler years

• sitting on someone lap was considerably better than siting alone on a table

• and an apologetic parent that coddled the kids was not as good as a parent that simply did the normal level of snuggling that kids was used to and made little or no fuss about the shot.

i find most of this to be very true and common sense. i was a piercer for over a decade and i learned many tricks to calm those on my table, one of the first things was to ditch the table in favor of a reclining chair that lay nearly but not totally flat. the moment someone was totally flat, their squirminess was higher and pain threshold was lower.

and when i changed my attitude and mannerism from "helping them cope with the pain" to "giving them something to do" and "assuming they would be fine with the pain" i saw huge change in the average person and their reaction.

my doctors office had a policy of nothing in the mouth during the shot, so that they didn't choke, i talked to my ped the very first appointment and she wrote right on my shot form that i was allowed to nurse, i only once had a lady that said she "couldn't work like that" and i said "fine, go switch with someone that can".  and with regards to them wanting them to sit or lay on a table, it was usually about being able to control their limbs, i found if i was sympathetic to their goal and said that this was the way i could best keep them calm and not moving, they were more open to it, i never had an issue, i got good at nursing while also holding down their arms for the tech, their arms were usually the big concern, since they have hold of the leg already.

now at the last shots around 18m, my kids were very blasé about the whole thing and were more into looking around and seeing stuff and they decided not to nurse when i offered, and only kinda yelped for a sec and then just turned to the boob and happily nursed after. 

I feel super relieved that i have apparently made the whole experience one that does not get their hackles up, frankly i think getting their length measured is more annoying to them in the moment (agafinallyin that is i think about being laid and held totally flat!)

[rightkindofme]

Well gosh. I wish this thread existed four years ago. Do you happen to remember who did the study? If I could print it out and bring it in to my doctors office maybe they might consider changing their policy. It's too late for my kids. I did what I did and I'm comfortable with that. :)

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

Well gosh. I wish this thread existed four years ago. Do you happen to remember who did the study? If I could print it out and bring it in to my doctors office maybe they might consider changing their policy. It's too late for my kids. I did what I did and I'm comfortable with that. :)

This is the one from 2003 when my son was little that led to our experiment in office with breastfeeding during shots - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139493/

However, my search also found one from 2007 that looks like a literature review of several of these types of studies (perhaps the one adorkable mentioned. I just read the abstract not the whole thing) - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/5/e1184.short

Edited by JollyGG - 10/15/12 at 8:06am

[~Adorkable~]

the study i read went into a bit more detail, though it looks like one of hte ones that are sumed up here, i will keep an eye out for it, i think i saved a link somewhere, but it was over 2 years ago, ugh

[prosciencemum]

Love that this thread brought up useful resources to help ease the stress and pain of vaccination. :) 

[prosciencemum]

I found another article which might be of interest here - a discussion about trust in the scientific process and the expertise of scientists to recommend the best choices for vaccination: 

http://scienceofmom.com/2012/01/11/on-parenting-science-and-trust-and-choosing-to-vaccinate/

An exerpt: 

Quote:

What would be naïve is for me to think that I could become an expert on vaccinations.  It would be naïve for me to think that I could understand the vaccine field better than the committees of scientists and doctors who have made this their life’s work. I know how much work it took me to become an expert on one or two corners of nutrition and fetal physiology. It took thousands of hours of reading textbooks and journal articles, sitting in lectures, attending conferences, and struggling at the lab bench before I started to feel even a little bit comfortable calling myself an expert in any field. So I think it is naïve for a parent to think that she can become an expert on vaccines by spending some time on the Internet reading questionable sources, almost all of which have some agenda. I accept that I can’t know everything, and I have enough faith in humanity that I trust others who know more than me.

[miilemons]

Ah, glad to have found this thread, I am mostly what people consider "crunchy" lol... but we do vax. We vax'd my daughter on schedule completely, but then again we did everything routine and cookie cutter with her in the beginning. Since becoming pregnant with my son and informing myself on vaxing we are still going to vaccinate him but I want it on a delayed schedule this time. He is a month old and has not received the hep b, or any other type of vaccine or shot.

[Rrrrrachel]

Welcome! We didn't do hep b at birth, either. It wasn't offered at our birth center, but I also don't like it because it can cause lethargy which can interfere with breastfeeding. got it at two months, though.

[MichelleZB]

I've fallen behind on this thread! I just have a few things:

Rightkindofme, your doctor's office's policy sucks. My doctor pretty much assumed I would be nursing when we did the shot. She was like, okay, I'm all ready as soon as you want to latch him on! I did, and then she administered the shot. For the record, we did two shots per appointment, one at a time. We nursed during the shots at 2 and 4 months, then at 6 months he wasn't hungry so wouldn't nurse. So she just gave him the shot while he was sitting on my husband's lap. He watched it go in his thigh kind of interestedly, and then laughed at our doctor because she was smiling at him. Clearly he didn't have a problem with the pain. When I nursed him at 2 and 4 months, he did pop off and cry right after the shot, and then latch back on, and I'm glad we were nursing because it was comforting for both of us.

I tried to act nonchalant and not overly sympathetic each time, like I do if he bumps his head or something and needs a quick cuddle. I think it helps if you're not panicking.

I've mentioned before on this thread that we didn't do Hep B at birth because we don't do that in Canada. A vaccine at birth seems a bit much to me.

[Rrrrrachel]

My daughter isn't really phased by shots. She cried more watching me get a flu shot than she did when she got her own flu shot.

[Sol_y_Paz]

I have more decisions to make over shots coming up soon

Autoimmune stuff runs in our family and so do allergies.  We will be doing travel internationally, but not until baby is older.  

I am not interested in the roto or flu shot.  

I do want Dtap and MMR. 

Two others I am making decisions about: PC and HIB

I do want to do the chickenpox vaccine but not until a certain age, unsure of that age as of yet. Chickenpox was really bad for me.

I do want to give Hep B but not for awhile, I haven't decided when.  

I would like to do the least amount of shots possible but also still given DC immunity and protection from the shots, without getting so many of the same ones every couple of months.

Any suggestions?  

Edited by Sol_y_Paz - 11/7/12 at 8:33am

[Rrrrrachel]

I curious why you never want to do a flu shot.

[MichelleZB]

I don't think I can give suggestions to you because I don't know about your reasoning for why you like some vaccines and not others, or what your thought process has been. Like, is there a reason why you want to protect from chickenpox (but only after a certain age) but not meningitis? Is it a risk/benefit thing or something else?

I will say that they do give Hep B to adolescents instead of newborns in Canada, if you want to know an alternate schedule for that.

[prosciencemum]

Since HepB at brith has come up several times, I just wanted to comment that in the UK this is only offered at birth to babies of mothers who have tested positive for Hep B. It is available later at any age for children considered at high risk of exposure. 

My daughter was born in the US, but I'm pretty sure she didn't get it at birth either. I don't remember it ever coming up. 

[emmy526]

most babies are routinely vaxed for hepb in the nursery before they go home in the USA..it's common practice...some hospitals, a mom can refuse and get it later at the pedi's

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Since HepB at brith has come up several times, I just wanted to comment that in the UK this is only offered at birth to babies of mothers who have tested positive for Hep B. It is available later at any age for children considered at high risk of exposure. 

My daughter was born in the US, but I'm pretty sure she didn't get it at birth either. I don't remember it ever coming up. 

[Rrrrrachel]

All hospitals mom can refuse and get it later.

I think the policy is different in the US because hep b is so much more prevalent here. The thing about the birth dose is that if mochas hep b (and very frequently if mom ha it she doesn't know) that birth dose is your one best chance to protect baby.

I did want my child to be protected earlier than adolescence because there is a fair amount of child to child transmission.