Mothering Mamas Who Thoughtfully Vaccinate - Page 3

[katelove]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

      Quote:

Originally Posted by nukuspot 

I just want to say that as a non vaxxer I wouldn't ever assume that vaxxed kids were somehow sicker, less intelligent, etc than my non vaxxed ones. Just wanted to point out that not vaxxing was my personal choice (for multiple reasons) and I don't look down on anyone who vaxxes or think that my children are somehow superior physically or emotionally or mentally. I just wanted to clarify this because I think there is a terrible misconception about stuff like this.

There have been some less than flattering things said on this board about children who are vaccinated, so it's not really a misconception that that belief is out there. But I think it was really nice of you to point out that you don't feel that way. I think there are a wide variety of opinions and beliefs among those on all sides of the issue.

I didn't read it as a misconception that the belief is out there, rather that the belief was a misconception.

[AbbyGrant]

     Quote:

Originally Posted by katelove 

I didn't read it as a misconception that the belief is out there, rather that the belief was a misconception.

Hmmm, that doesn't make sense to me particularly given the audience. I mean we don't need clarifying on that issue. But maybe my reading comprehension is off due to sleep deprivation. Nuku?

[MRubio]

I am a new mother and have researched vaccines for the last 6 months, my son is 12 weeks old Sunday.  I have read countless material on both sides and found the most comfort in Dr. Sears book, The Vaccine Book.  I have struggled with the information and he makes it so easy to figure out and understand on either side.  My husband and I have agreed upon the alternative selective schedule and we are starting it a 3 months to give him the most benefit from my breast milk.  I have prayed and studied and I believe, like prosciencemum, that herd immunity is very important.  Our ped is very laid back and willing to work with us (we met with 6 peds before we found her!) and has 3 children of her own, one of which contracted Rotavirus and he was never in child care.  She says it was terrible and he lost 3 lbs in 5 hours between the vomiting and diarrhea.  She highly recommends we do the Dtap and Rota and alternate with the Pc and Hib.  She uses all the vaccines that Dr Sears suggests so that was a huge relief for me.  I am 40 and have waited a long time for my baby and want to do everything I can to care for him in the best possible way.  I have a friend that is a autism doctor and he recommended that I dose him with 5000iu of Vit A (cod liver oil), 5000iu of Vit D, 200iu of Vit E and 500mg of Vit C 4 days before and after the vaccines.  I feel that we are doing was is right for our family and will be posting our experience when we go on June 19th.  Thanks for starting this thread and giving me more comfort about our decision!!

[nukuspot]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

     Quote:

Hmmm, that doesn't make sense to me particularly given the audience. I mean we don't need clarifying on that issue. But maybe my reading comprehension is off due to sleep deprivation. Nuku?

I'm not trying to say that no non vaxxer feels that way about vaxxed kids, what I'm trying to point out is that it's not a belief held by us all! That's all . For what it's worth IMO I think good childhood health and immunity go much more hand in hand with EBF/extended BF rather than vax status for the majority of kids (those who have experienced vaccine reactions of course are an exception.)

[Rrrrrachel]

Mrubio I'm songlad you found such a great ped! I wish more of them were like that.

[Choose2Reuse]

Usually I stay off the vaccination board because it gets really heated and I don't like getting involved in angry discussions, but I wanted to chime in here just because I feel it's good for people to realize that being pro-vaccination and practicing attachment parenting are not mutually exclusive.  Also, hurray everyone who has kept this thread civil so far! 

I have a PhD in chemical engineering and I did my thesis project in a microbiology lab.  I can read, understand, and find the flaws in the various vax vs. nonvax studies.  DH and I are firmly in the pro-vax camp, and my DD is being vaccinated on schedule.  However, I think it's just as responsible and reasonable to choose to get vaccinations on a delayed schedule, if you prefer (we did consider that before deciding that we were too scared of the whooping cough epidemic, etc.).
 

[MichelleZB]

I also vaccinate myself and my son! My husband and I are very science-minded and firmly in the vaccination camp. I probably would say I am proud to vaccinate my son, because I really believe that the invention of vaccines was one of those crowning human achievements that we should all be terribly proud of. I read a few books on the discovery of the smallpox vaccine, and it's truly amazing. Vaccines have saved so many lives, improved quality of life globally, and are really a beautiful thing and a very clever bit of biology. They literally give me hope for humankind!

Maybe I'm not proud to vaccinate so much as I'm honoured to.

I think it's great we have this thread so that people know that you can be an attachment parent and vaccinate. I breastfeed my son exclusively--he doesn't even have bottles of pumped milk. I don't even pump. We will continue to breastfeed as long as he wants. I didn't consider circumcising him, we co-sleep, and use cloth diapers, and I come from a family of gentle discipliners. I feel like I fit in on this forum everywhere but in this issue, and it has always perplexed me why attachment parenting practices (which are founded in very sound science) and not vaccinating (which is not) have associated themselves like this.

But you know, I've been spending a lot of time on the board and I think I understand a bit more. I think my stance is an easier one to take where I live, in Canada. People's pediatricians in the US are telling them some wacky things, and I think it really undermines trust in the medical system. People have doctors telling them to wean at 6 months, or earlier! On my side, my son's doctor nursed her own son for 14 months and I don't feel like I'm "fighting" her about breastfeeding. I also didn't have to fight or argue with anyone to keep my son intact. Everyone just assumed we would, and the hospital didn't even ask.

I hope I'm explaining myself well, but what I mean is this: breastfeeding and not circumcision don't feel like "alternative" choices where I am, so I don't feel like I'm constantly "fighting the system". But I now know that many people don't have the same experience, and I wonder if it has affected their decisions about vaccinating. I mean, if your doctor told you that your perfectly healthy son needed to be circumcised, which is obvious bunk, would you trust him about vaccines or anything else? Probably not.

Anyway, those were just a few thoughts I had.

I didn't see this thread for a few days because I also stay off the vaccination board! As it was pointed out, I felt like we don't really have a place here because there are subforums for people who don't vaccinate, people who have delayed schedules, but no scheduled vaccinations board. Then I realized that we don't really need a board, just a thread, because it's not like people who do the vaccination schedule have much to talk about, do we? We just pretty much do them. My son goes in for his 6 month shots in a week, and had his 2 month and 4 months already. There was nothing special to report or talk about. I nursed him while he got his shots, which helps, and then after that he was just fine. I was prepared for him to have a low grade fever or be fussy for a day or two, but he acted like nothing had happened. He is a healthy, happy boy, and a prolific gainer!

I also wanted to bring up that my mother had polio at 5 and lost her ability to walk. I'm not sure I have anything to add about that, just wanted to type it. She was one of the lucky ones, the lucky ones who didn't die of it. However, she was such a loving attachment parent (before there was a name for it!) that even she got caught up in the no-vaccination thing and had us excused from being vaccinated for Hep B and things when we were teenagers. Me and my siblings looked up the science for vaccinating later in life and rushed to catch ourselves up.

[nukuspot]

I'm glad you are so content with your decision. That's great. I just want to clarify 2 things (since you seem curious to the motives of non vaxxers). 1.). Our ped is great. My decision to not vaccinate has nothing to do with not trusting her. As a matter of fact, she is so great that when we met with her prenatally and I asked her about how she would feel to have us in her practice as a non vaccinating family and explained why we were making that choice, she replied that she trusts me as a parent and as a well researched health care provider (I'm a licensed midwife) and she supports our decision because she knows it was based on what we saw as fact, not fear. She is not holistic or an ND, she is very mainstream. So we have good ones here in the US too . 2.). I take very slight offense to the assumption that non vaxxers somehow are not scientifically minded. I am sure that was not what you were insinuating, but people could read your post and think you were. I have 2 health care provider licenses in my state, I went through a rigorous midwifery program with a huge emphasis on evidence based medicine, including countless hours spent learning about how to choose and read studies, and wrote a thesis study myself at the end (not vaccine related.) I read all the evidence and well written studies I could find on vaccines at the time (and still keep up on it) and just seem to have come to a different conclusion as yourself, that's all. Not sure if this reply fits on this thread but I just really felt the need to respond this morning. Best to you!

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by nukuspot 

I'm glad you are so content with your decision. That's great. I just want to clarify 2 things (since you seem curious to the motives of non vaxxers). 1.). Our ped is great. My decision to not vaccinate has nothing to do with not trusting her. As a matter of fact, she is so great that when we met with her prenatally and I asked her about how she would feel to have us in her practice as a non vaccinating family and explained why we were making that choice, she replied that she trusts me as a parent and as a well researched health care provider (I'm a licensed midwife) and she supports our decision because she knows it was based on what we saw as fact, not fear. She is not holistic or an ND, she is very mainstream. So we have good ones here in the US too . 2.). I take very slight offense to the assumption that non vaxxers somehow are not scientifically minded. I am sure that was not what you were insinuating, but people could read your post and think you were. I have 2 health care provider licenses in my state, I went through a rigorous midwifery program with a huge emphasis on evidence based medicine, including countless hours spent learning about how to choose and read studies, and wrote a thesis study myself at the end (not vaccine related.) I read all the evidence and well written studies I could find on vaccines at the time (and still keep up on it) and just seem to have come to a different conclusion as yourself, that's all. Not sure if this reply fits on this thread but I just really felt the need to respond this morning. Best to you!

I agree with all of this.  My kids' pediatrician (board certified, MD) is not only supportive of non-vaccinating parents, but encouraging.

There are many, many non-vaxxers who are scientifically minded, myself included.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Before having kids, I was an editorial manager for a major science journal publishing company.  I've seen how written studies get selected for publishing.  It's not this sacred, stringent system that people seem to think it is.

Part of science is observation, which often seems to get dismissed in these discussions.  Just because something isn't published doesn't mean it isn't science or fact.

[serenbat]

I agree with all of this.  My kids' pediatrician (board certified, MD) is not only supportive of non-vaccinating parents, but encouraging.

I also have one of those-he is in his 80's and has seen both side- pre-vac and now and his share of "reactions". I trust him and know he has treated countless patients over the years.

[MichelleZB]

Oh, okay, then. Another theory bites the dust. I guess I was just responding to what I see as a mistrust of the medical system, and trying to get to a place where I understood why people felt that way. And there definitely are some people here who *do* feel that way and I can see why they do. I actually forgot to add into it everything about birth, too! I mean, think of all the crazy, unscientific shit people subject birthing women to, even these days, after all this research.  Why do they induce so readily, for instance? Why don't all hospitals put the baby on the mother's chest right away when all studies show it helps breastfeeding? Seems like a no brainer. Etc. etc.

I think it is possible that some people are wary of vaccinations because they have a right to be wary of everything their medical system throws at them, after all the random stuff they're subjected to. I guess that's what I was trying to say? It doesn't mean everyone is wary of vaccinations for the same reason.

And I guess I said I was scientifically-minded because I love science! And that is definitely a reason why I am pro-vaccine--probably the biggest reason. I mean, the way they were invented, the way they work... isn't it all just a little bit... cool?

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

Oh, okay, then. Another theory bites the dust. I guess I was just responding to what I see as a mistrust of the medical system, and trying to get to a place where I understood why people felt that way. And there definitely are some people here who *do* feel that way and I can see why they do. I actually forgot to add into it everything about birth, too! I mean, think of all the crazy, unscientific shit people subject birthing women to, even these days, after all this research.  Why do they induce so readily, for instance? Why don't all hospitals put the baby on the mother's chest right away when all studies show it helps breastfeeding? Seems like a no brainer. Etc. etc.

I think it is possible that some people are wary of vaccinations because they have a right to be wary of everything their medical system throws at them, after all the random stuff they're subjected to. I guess that's what I was trying to say? It doesn't mean everyone is wary of vaccinations for the same reason.

I don't think you are entirely wrong.

I do think some who do not vaccinate are wary of western medicine.  I don't think very many abandon it completely, but they definitely pick and choose when it is applicable to their lives.  There are numerous reasons for it, and yeah, things like super high C-sec rates do affect how trusting people are overall.  

There are those who do not vaccinate because they are not convinced of the science.  In the interest of not hijacking this thread (but still addressing your point) I will not go into the whys and wherefores here.  Suffice to say there are plenty of people who like science, but are not convinced they should vaccinate for anything, everything or on schedule.  

Naturally, there is some cross-over.

[Rrrrrachel]

I think there are also people who believe vaccines work exactly the way the CDC says they work, they just know (or believe) that in the current situation here in the us their child is very unlikely to contract a vpd and if they do they believe they wil be able to manage the illness.

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I think there are also people who believe vaccines work exactly the way the CDC says they work, they just know (or believe) that in the current situation here in the us their child is very unlikely to contract a vpd and if they do they believe they wil be able to manage the illness.

I'm not in the US so I don't tend to reference the CDC as much but I believe that vaccines work ( although probably not always as well or in the ways stated - observe the latest pertussis decision in Australia). I, and my DH also have science backgrounds. I am a midwife and ED nurse, he is an EDNP. We have 6-7 university qualifications between us and both have masters degrees. I have done an immunization provider course and DH is a peer reviewer for two well-respected journals in our field. I feel we have a reasonable handle on the science ;-)

Our LO is unvaccinated at the moment but will probably be selectively vaxed later.

Oh, and people don't usually see pediatricians here unless there is a problem but our GP is respectful and supportive although not in complete agreement with us.

[nukuspot]

I believe most vaccines work, but the effectiveness is varied based on the vaccine. I usually go by what the package insert says, as the manufacturer has done the most studies on effectiveness. Some like diptheria and tetanus, are quite effective. Others like pertussis, rotavirus, and flu are less so. I am not a "vaccine denier", "anti science" or even a "herd immunity denier" like many pro vax websites try to portray us non vaxxers.

What I do believe in my soul and brain (both science and maternal instinct come into play here) is that while the science around what vaccines are and how they work is pretty amazing....The actual end product (like many other medicines and drugs) have (to me) definite safety concerns. I understand the "why" as to why formaldehyde, aluminum, polysorbate 80, bovine serum, trace thimerasol, etc, etc, are in the vaccines...But that doesn't make me feel any better about injecting them into my small child(ren). I have serious safety concerns, just as I do about things like long term antibiotic use, for example.

I am also not going to go into why I personally chose to not vaccinate, because the explanation would be very long and very intense, and not appropriate for this thread. I would be happy to discuss it on another thread.

I do want to say that I've gone through each vaccine multiple times and created a risk/benefit ratio for each. I always thought I'd do selective vaccination. However when I came down to it, there were none that weighed heavily in the "pro" column at this point and so thus far my DD is unvaccinated and I will not be vaccinating my newborn. However, like Katielove, we will most likely be starting selective vaccination at a later date because the risk/benefit ratio for tetanus and Hep B does go up (to me) as the child gets older and more independent, especially in early teen years.

Hope this helps a little to understand where some of us are coming from...

[Rrrrrachel]

Nuku it is clear to me that you are very well educated about vaccines and have made an intelligent and thoughtful decision based on the information available. Can't ask for more than that.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Olly, thanks for clarifying. It really did come across to me as though you were saying that your kids were proof that there is no evidence that vaccines can cause harm, but if that's not what you meant, then I apologize for misunderstanding.
I'm not trying to stir up controversy any more than you are. I've posted my experiences with my children's severe adverse effects--and a member here PM-ed me that she was sure I was making the whole thing up.
I guess things get stirred up, no matter which side we are on, and no matter how hard we try to be non-controversial.

It's been a busy weekend, I haven't had a chance to come back and respond. I'm glad that I cleared up any misunderstanding. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by nukuspot 


I just want to say that as a non vaxxer I wouldn't ever assume that vaxxed kids were somehow sicker, less intelligent, etc than my non vaxxed ones. Just wanted to point out that not vaxxing was my personal choice (for multiple reasons) and I don't look down on anyone who vaxxes or think that my children are somehow superior physically or emotionally or mentally. I just wanted to clarify this because I think there is a terrible misconception about stuff like this.

The (no-doubt gag-inducing) bragging about my kids was my attempt to cover all of the possible vaccine-related adverse reactions that I've seen raised by others. Physical, psychological, cognitive, emotional, and any other possibilities - I was just trying to be comprehensive in stating that vaccination had no negative effect on their development, in case anyone was wondering about consequences. I wasn't thinking at all in terms of superiority/inferiority between vaccinated/unvaccinated children and it never occurred to me that anyone else would.  

[nukuspot]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Nuku it is clear to me that you are very well educated about vaccines and have made an intelligent and thoughtful decision based on the information available. Can't ask for more than that.

Thank you Rachel, that was very sweet of you to say this. I know we disagree fundamentally about vaccines for our respective kids but I respect your decision and choice, so it's good to know you respect mine.

[Imakcerka]

Rach and Nuk!!!!!!