I don't understand what you're saying. Do you think mothering shouldn't allow people to post pro vaccine threads at all? Hence the comparison to the stance on circumcision? Or just that you don't think there should be a dedicated forum?
Why do you insist on posting to support only threads for vaxing parents?
Thread - not threads. There was one thread. I felt a support only thread belonged on sel/delayed. Turns out I was wrong. In hindsight I should have stayed off and simply started this thread. My apologies to proscience mum for lack of foresight.
So - your turn.
Why do you care if there there is an "echo chamber"? (your words). Some people like support only threads
No she wants the provax camp to find their own forum. There are so many places out there for vaxxers we shouldn't be muddling up what they have going on here. We may join a ddc, talk about parenting but keep our choices to ourselves if they don't adhere to motherings stance on vaccines.
The recent polarization of non-vax vs pro-vax has become heightened in a way it was not before. Partially I believe this is because - compared to 2003, when I joined MDC - not vaxing has gained press coverage, and the media is doing a fine job of encouraging that polarization. Our addition of sub forums has probably furthered that cause. The growth of MDC as a board has added as well. Much different climate when there are 2000 members (or less) compared to the 185K we have now.
So….are you hoping to collapse the forums to make the situation less polarised?
I am not sure that will work. There are numerous posters on INV who do not post on the main page (the bickering is not their thing). As you point out, there are few non-vax friendly places on the net for mothers to chat - it would be sad to lose this one.
If you think this forum is so broken you have to try, then maybe…..
Another way to structure the forums would be similar to the learning section:
have a pro debate forum
have a non debate forum
Everyone can pick and post accordingly.
It would mean less debate (but not none - there is debate on subforums - visit them and see).
On the vax forum the debates get heated and sometimes nasty.
In addition to being a heavy burden for mods, it is hardly welcoming to newbies from any side, or people who do not like drama.
I do think MDC needs to be clear on whether they want to be support or debate based. Maybe it can be both - but what is that going to look like?
There are numerous vaccinating posters throughout MDC who do not post in the Vax forums AT ALL because they are tired of being attacked for their choices. Do you want them to be kept silent?
There are numerous vaccinating posters throughout MDC who do not post in the Vax forums AT ALL because they are tired of being attacked for their choices. Do you want them to be kept silent?
That or leave... obviously.
Wait that's not directed at Kathy. Just so we're clear.
There are numerous vaccinating posters throughout MDC who do not post in the Vax forums AT ALL because they are tired of being attacked for their choices. Do you want them to be kept silent?
I actually think MDC should provide a space for the pro-vax POV with a pro-vax subforum. I am pretty sure I have been clear on that.
I think it should be more clear- when you are PRO one way and wishy~washy another issue you send mix messages (especially to newbies)- if your core is one way- stand on and make it clear but saying we are one way ONLY on this and well, well, on this......it comes off as such
regardless of this issue, I feel there are far tooooooo many subs and I don't support a dedicated forum -either all or nothing- free open real debate-IMO
I understand the need to collapse some of the subforums, but I think that at least the vax forum should be collapsed to 2, not to one. One could be support only, regardless of position, the other for debate, sort of like "Spirituality" vs. "Religious Studies".
There are other areas of MDC where many subforums could be collapsed into one without any feelings being hurt. I promise, as an occasional poster to "Yarn Crafts" that I will not rankle those who prefer sewing instead. But as a frequent poster to "Unschooling", I appreciate the protection the subforum gives me to express ideas that others find mindboggling. It hasn't happened recently, nor is it the hotbed of arguments that the vax forum is, but I really feel like some areas need the subforums so that we can have some sort of freedom in our discussions, and not have to digress to explain, for example, what the entire point of unschooling is....again! It would be highly frustrating for me to ask advice from other unschoolers about something specific, and have the thread turn into another unschooling vs. classical schooling debate, or... (the vax forum is no stranger to this) accusations of child abuse because I do not sit my kids down and make them study.
So, I feel there is a need to keep subforums in particular areas, not just because of how busy they are.
I think it should be more clear- when you are PRO one way and wishy~washy another issue you send mix messages (especially to newbies)- if your core is one way- stand on and make it clear but saying we are one way ONLY on this and well, well, on this......it comes off as such
regardless of this issue, I feel there are far tooooooo many subs and I don't support a dedicated forum -either all or nothing- free open real debate-IMO
So they need to take a firm stand on every issue there is? That seems strange.
Oh I say bring it down to ONE! The vax forum that is. And then let it run wild. I like chaos.
I'm going to find a mod gig for you.....
So...the recent pro-vax thread has no crazy accusations of non-vaxers, and yet has more posts by non-vaxers than by vaxers. So....we aren't going to get a place to post without being told that we are wrong for *something* about our beliefs? It's wrong to be *proud* of the way we view medical treatment? I'm kind of tired of the "well, the non-vax forum is needed, but AP parents who DO vaccinate have no place here on MDC unless they are willing to constantly defend themselves, or absolutely stay away from the Vax forum entirely because they WILL be attacked here"
Please note other admin's presence on that thread - which is being discussed - and that obviously - the whole forum is being discussed. Reymember how long the board has been here, and how things have changed since we have even added the sub forums. When we started there was NO PLACE on the internet to discuss not vaxing. Just like there was nearly no place to discuss AP. When we added the sub forums we were allowing for discussion we saw that was needed for selective/delayed vaxers, something we had not needed before. Now, please note that we are discussing what is needed *AGAIN* and trying to evaluate how to meet that need. We are not a static entity, we do have to make changes. Also note that 98% of our staff is volunteer with no perks other than they love to be here. Sometimes things might not move as fast as you like, but be aware that we are talking about it, and working on ideas to meet needs. At NO TIME have I said "pro-vaxers don't get a space to talk about their stuff". I said we likely would not be adding more sub forums.
So….are you hoping to collapse the forums to make the situation less polarised?
I am not sure that will work. There are numerous posters on INV who do not post on the main page (the bickering is not their thing). As you point out, there are few non-vax friendly places on the net for mothers to chat - it would be sad to lose this one.
If you think this forum is so broken you have to try, then maybe…..
Another way to structure the forums would be similar to the learning section:
have a pro debate forum
have a non debate forum
Everyone can pick and post accordingly.
It would mean less debate (but not none - there is debate on subforums - visit them and see).
On the vax forum the debates get heated and sometimes nasty.
In addition to being a heavy burden for mods, it is hardly welcoming to newbies from any side, or people who do not like drama.
I do think MDC needs to be clear on whether they want to be support or debate based. Maybe it can be both - but what is that going to look like?
We didn't use to have sub forums. Funnily enough, everyone posted in one and magically, no one died. And there were support threads, and debate threads. But strangely enough, the only way to have that happen is if the MEMBERS take on some of that burden. I can post and ban and suspend and whatever til I am blue in the virtual face, but if the members are unwilling to support that kind of open discussion environment, and actually discuss the topic, then it won't work. NO matter what format we try. Yours, mine, joan smith off the street.
That or leave... obviously.
Wait that's not directed at Kathy. Just so we're clear.
If it is directed at me - I have never said that - I am explaining the reasoning behind why things are the way they are, and some of my thoughts on why things are going the way they are. I was trying to add insight into the discussions that we are having behind the scenes, to keep you informed. I didn't figure anyone would be too thrilled if you all got excited about getting your own forum and then were told that no, we aren't adding forums, we are taking them all away.
No it wasn't directed at you but I'm not calling people out. It was directed at someone else and I'm pretty sure they know who they are.
I think it should be more clear- when you are PRO one way and wishy~washy another issue you send mix messages (especially to newbies)- if your core is one way- stand on and make it clear but saying we are one way ONLY on this and well, well, on this......it comes off as such
regardless of this issue, I feel there are far tooooooo many subs and I don't support a dedicated forum -either all or nothing- free open real debate-IMO
If you are discussing MDC's core stance - it has always been informed consent/research.
You can have informed consent and research and choose to vax or not vax.
.I'm late to the party, after just 4.5 hours, but I have question.
Why, exactly, do pro vaxers need a forum? I'm not against them having one. I guess I just don't understand why the mainstream needs a forum for support and discussion? I thought the discussion was for making a decision really, or support for when something has gone wrong? Or, support for when one of our kids gets sick with one of those vpds, and we'd like help from other btdt people.
What are the provaxers going to be talking about over there? I mean, if you just want us all to know you are here, and to be nice, great. Hi! But, otherwise? I don't get it?
And, I absolutely support putting it back in one forum. I remember that, and I learned an incredible amount there. Clicking through all the subforums, and trying to remember all the rules of what goes where and who thinks what, and how I'm supposed to talk to them gets exhausting. Actually, I've stayed away because the effort wasn't worth it to me. One forum means we can just be ourselves. We already know who thinks what and why...so, why do have to practice framing our statements in pro/non/whatever ways just because we are on different forums? It's not English class, lol.
I'm late to the party, after just 4.5 hours, but I have question.
Why, exactly, do pro vaxers need a forum? I'm not against them having one. I guess I just don't understand why the mainstream needs a forum for support and discussion? I thought the discussion was for making a decision really, or support for when something has gone wrong? Or, support for when one of our kids gets sick with one of those vpds, and we'd like help from other btdt people.
What are the provaxers going to be talking about over there? I mean, if you just want us all to know you are here, and to be nice, great. Hi! But, otherwise? I don't get it?
And, I absolutely support putting it back in one forum. I remember that, and I learned an incredible amount there. Clicking through all the subforums, and trying to remember all the rules of what goes where and who thinks what, and how I'm supposed to talk to them gets exhausting. Actually, I've stayed away because the effort wasn't worth it to me. One forum means we can just be ourselves. We already know who thinks what and why...so, why do have to practice framing our statements in pro/non/whatever ways just because we are on different forums? It's not English class, lol.
I'm also late to the party... But I think the idea is that while vaxing may be "main stream" some of us pro-vaxers come to the decision to vax not from a "I do everything mainstream medicine tells me to" POV but after a lot of thinking & searching & researching & debating.
I actually don't really take part in much of the debate re. vaxing here on MDC, so that's just my best guess at why some pro-vax MDC'rs would want a pro-vax subforum. I actually wouldn't feel comfortable at all in a mainstream discussion about vaxing, even though we chose to vax DS. I'd much rather talk to other mamas who have really thought about this topic from a critical stand point.
And, I absolutely support putting it back in one forum. I remember that, and I learned an incredible amount there. Clicking through all the subforums, and trying to remember all the rules of what goes where and who thinks what, and how I'm supposed to talk to them gets exhausting. Actually, I've stayed away because the effort wasn't worth it to me. One forum means we can just be ourselves. We already know who thinks what and why...so, why do have to practice framing our statements in pro/non/whatever ways just because we are on different forums? It's not English class, lol.
I have not been here long enough to have experience re-subforum-explosion. I do have experience over in the unschooling forum, though, and for a while it seemed you couldn't say anything remotely critical of public schools, or classical homeschooling without having someone ask "what's wrong with it?" and have their feelings hurt and the point of the thread derailed but it wouldn't be a personal slam from either side. (I exaggerate, of course, before someone calls me on this! Yes, it's hyperbole.....)
I have heard in other threads, from folks who were here in the days, that it was more difficult to write anything definitive (my words) without someone getting upset, and that threads were overly moderated. Could it have been in part that there weren't enough subforums? I predict that if the site gets too crazy collapsing subforums too far in many corners of MDC that mods will have their hands full and feelings will get hurt and things will start getting over-moderated again. I see, obviously, that subforums don't prevent this either, but I think combining too many might be incredibly troublesome.
There are many ways you could divide the vax camps, but I see 2 clearly emerging: those who are comfortable and happy with the chaos and debate and those that really just want to read "the facts" (loaded term here!), get some support and make their own choices without all the trouble of sifting through 400 posts of arguments.
I'm late to the party, after just 4.5 hours, but I have question.
Why, exactly, do pro vaxers need a forum? I'm not against them having one. I guess I just don't understand why the mainstream needs a forum for support and discussion? I thought the discussion was for making a decision really, or support for when something has gone wrong? Or, support for when one of our kids gets sick with one of those vpds, and we'd like help from other btdt people.
What are the provaxers going to be talking about over there? I mean, if you just want us all to know you are here, and to be nice, great. Hi! But, otherwise? I don't get it?
And, I absolutely support putting it back in one forum. I remember that, and I learned an incredible amount there. Clicking through all the subforums, and trying to remember all the rules of what goes where and who thinks what, and how I'm supposed to talk to them gets exhausting. Actually, I've stayed away because the effort wasn't worth it to me. One forum means we can just be ourselves. We already know who thinks what and why...so, why do have to practice framing our statements in pro/non/whatever ways just because we are on different forums? It's not English class, lol.
Re: the bolded, why do non-vaxers need a forum? I don't think they do.
I agree with getting rid of the subforums though.
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