more on thimerosal - Page 5

[Rrrrrachel]

I gues is interpret that to mean an autistic child wouldn't also be diagnosed ADHD, it's just part of their autism,but not that ADHD children and adults are all autistic.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Even if all that were true, which is debatable to say the least, it still doesn't make the claim that ADHD is an ASD correct.

Sorry, it is true. Check out the Wired article "Inside the Battle to Define Mental Illness" (12.27.2010) and Dr Allen Frances statements to Gary Greenberg. Dr Frances, in 1994, was in charge of the writing up of the DSM-IV. That year The New York Times called him "Perhaps the most powerful psychiatrist in America". Dr Frances turned whistle blower and told Greenberg,

There is no definition of a mental disorder. It's BS (my contraction, I don't want to fall foul of the UA). I mean, you just can't define it."

and

These concepts [of distinct mental disorders] are virtually impossible to define precisely with bright lines at the borders.

Edited by Mirzam - 6/22/12 at 12:00pm

[Lollybrat]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

According to http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-child-does-not-have-bipolar-disorder/201203/autism-and-attention-deficit-hyperactivity-d-0,

"ADHD is considered by DSM IV and DSM-5 to be an intrinsic part of Autistic Disorder  not meriting a separate diagnosis."

The sentences immediately proceeding say this:

As stated in DSM IV, "Symptoms of overactivity and inattention are frequent in Autistic Disorder, but a diagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder is not made if Autistic Disorder is present." (p.74, DSM IV, copyright 2000, text revision.) DSM 5 proposes to retain this rule.

What it all means is that under the current DSM (and apparently the next DSM), it is inappropriate give a child who has a diagnosis of ASD an additional diagnosis of ADHD.  Children with ASD often have hyperactivity and/or inattention, but these should be considered part of their autism and not treated as a separate condition.

It is very controversial and despite what it says in the DSM, there are many doctors who will diagnose a child with both ASD and ADHD.  

My son has Autistic Disorder and does have both hyperactivity and inattention. His school requested that we have him evaluated for an additional diagnosis of ADHD, because when attempts to mainstream him were a disaster the school thought we should try medication before increasing his services.  We agreed to have the evals done, but insisted that they be done by his private psychologist (not the school psychologist). So DH and I and the school staff did all the rating scales and the psychologist talked to all of us and consulted with his developmental ped. Then the psychologist wrote a detailed report that says yes, DS does have elevated hyperactivity and inattention and that these are features of his autism and he does not qualify for an ADHD diagnosis.

(Going completely off-topic, after this the developmental ped ordered some bloodwork and found that DS's iron stores were borderline low.  She prescribed an iron supplement  and WOW did it make a difference in his inattention and hyperactivity.  The dev ped says she sees this a lot.)

[chickabiddy]

Autism/ASD incorporates ADHD (autistic children are assumed to have ADHD and typically don't get ADHD added to the diagnosis list), but ADHD is also a stand-alone diagnosis.  It is not considered part of the autism spectrum on its own.
 

[AbbyGrant]

  *

Edited by AbbyGrant - 6/28/12 at 8:40pm

[Mosaic]

The Autism/ADHD diagnostic criteria conversation is fascinating, but off-topic. If you'd like to chat about this some more, I can try to figure out how to split this off into a new thread in Health & healing, or you could help me out and start a new one there. But in this thread/forum? Yeah, notsomuch, please and thank you!

[AbbyGrant]

     *

Edited by AbbyGrant - 6/28/12 at 8:39pm

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Sorry, it is true. Check out the Wired article "Inside the Battle to Define Mental Illness" (12.27.2010) and Dr Allen Frances statements to Gary Greenberg. Dr Frances, in 1994, was in charge of the writing up of the DSM-IV. That year The New York Times called him "Perhaps the most powerful psychiatrist in America". Dr Frances turned whistle blower and told Greenberg,

No need to be sorry. You haven't actually proved anything with the Wired article. And I actually don't entirely disagree with everything Frances says especially when it comes to overdiagnosis. What I mainly disagreed with in your post was that these disorders along with all other mental disorders are not medical conditions and there are no tests for any of them.

They are absolutely not medical conditions according to the DSM and there are absolutely no chemical or biological tests for mental illness, ie the result of this blood test shows you have ODD/schizophrenia/bi-polar/autism etc, though there can be co-morbid medical issues associated with autism for sure, but then is the diagnosis autism or something else? The diagnosis of these mental conditions rest solely on the arbitrary menu of human behaviors listed in the DSM. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I guess I interpret that to mean an autistic child wouldn't also be diagnosed ADHD, it's just part of their autism,but not that ADHD children and adults are all autistic.

Pretty much. The author mentions right before that statement that DSM IV states "Symptoms of overactivity and inattention are frequent in Autistic Disorder, but a diagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder is not made if Autistic Disorder is present" which is from a section about co-existing diagnoses. He also goes on to say "the symptoms of ADHD are not part of the symptoms listed for DSM critera for autistic disorder."

I've heard some speculation that when the DSM5 comes out children might be able to get both diagnoses if they meet the criteria for both, but the details are still sketchy.

The bolded are behaviors, not medical conditions. The DSM-V by defining all these separate mental disorders allow for the pharmaceutical companies to develop yet more drugs for these so-called mental disorders. Autism is the pharma's next big market for their drugs.

[Mosaic]

Second reminder:

The Autism/ADHD diagnostic criteria conversation is fascinating, but off-topic. If you'd like to chat about this some more, I can try to figure out how to split this off into a new thread in Health & healing, or you could help me out and start a new one there. But in this thread/forum? Yeah, notsomuch, please and thank you!

Get back on topic, please.

[Mirzam]

Sorry, I didn't see your post until it was too late.

[Ellen Paul]

The US Govt. has refused to protect us because it doesn't want to be sued for creating generations of autistic and disabled or diseased citizens. So it continues to ensure that thimerosal etc. gets into toddlers by means of implementing more frequent flu shots with thimerosal, while agreeing to remove thimerosal from most other shots. How clever and uncaring. Pharm and US Govt/CDC,. etc. are and always have been bedfellows. Caviat emptor.

[threenorns]

bottom line:  according to the FDA, there is "no" safe level for mercury so it doesnt' matter if it's x mcg or whatever - NO level is safe.

also, dont' forget we're not talking about one shot - we're talking about repeated shots, multiple doses, and the effect of accumulation in body tissues.

[Rrrrrachel]

Except you're applying the FDA standards for methyl mercury to ethyl mercury, which behaves completely differently in the body and is eliminated much more quickly.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Except you're applying the FDA standards for methyl mercury to ethyl mercury, which behaves completely differently in the body and is eliminated much more quickly.

 Ethylmercury is more rapidly metabolized in the brain and kidneys than methylmercury.  Many scientists believe it is actually more dangerous than methylmercury..  And there are apparently susceptible subgroups who are unable to eliminate it effectively, such as those with vitamin D deficiency, and those with autoimmune disorders.

I've posted many links on the science supporting this in previous threads.  You are welcome to go back and reread them. 

Here are two more interesting discussions:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/07p0331/07p-0331-cp00001-006-(47-pages)-vol1.pdf

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/ethyl_vs__methyl.htm

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Except you're applying the FDA standards for methyl mercury to ethyl mercury, which behaves completely differently in the body and is eliminated much more quickly.

Actually I think it's worse than that, I think those are the FDA standards for metallic mercury (which has no safe level). Neither methyl mercury or ethyl mercury is the same as that (just like table salt is no the same as chlorine). 

There's a lot of debate over relative safety of ethyl versus methyl mercury. It's all a bit beside the point for (most) vaccine safety considerations anyway because there's none of either in any childhood vaccine, and not in most types of available flu shot either. 

[emmy526]

they already shielded themselves from lawsuits with passing the 1986 law limiting the liability.  http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

Originally Posted by Ellen Paul 

The US Govt. has refused to protect us because it doesn't want to be sued for creating generations of autistic and disabled or diseased citizens. So it continues to ensure that thimerosal etc. gets into toddlers by means of implementing more frequent flu shots with thimerosal, while agreeing to remove thimerosal from most other shots. How clever and uncaring. Pharm and US Govt/CDC,. etc. are and always have been bedfellows. Caviat emptor.

[Rrrrrachel]

Not only are they refusing to protect us but they're actively trying to make as many autistic toddlers as possible by pushing flu shots, but not the flu shots without thimerosal, just the other ones?

Thanks PSM, you're right. Those aren't the standards for methyl mercury either, and it is pretty much irrelevant.

Yes ethyl mercury is eliminated more quickly, so it doesn't build up in the body between vaccinations. I'm glad to see you're finally recognizing there's a difference, taxi!

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

It's all a bit beside the point for (most) vaccine safety considerations anyway because there's none of either in any childhood vaccine, and not in most types of available flu shot either. 

That's a very misleading way to put it.  When you mention that there is no thimerosal in most of the different types of "available flu shots" that implies that more people actually get thimerosal-free flu shots than thimerosal-preserved shots.  And that's not true.  The thimerosal-preserved flu shot is by far the most commonly used flu shot, even though there are several different thimerosal-free versions made.  There are still MORE thimerosal-preserved shots, by far.  And they are given routinely now to women in all stages of pregnancy, and to infants as young as 6 months old.  Last time I checked my local Walgreen's, which is pushing flu shots FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS THEM, they did not stock thimerosal-free flu shots.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 


Yes ethyl mercury is eliminated more quickly, so it doesn't build up in the body between vaccinations. I'm glad to see you're finally recognizing there's a difference, taxi!

You seem to have trouble understanding what I have posted.

I have never failed to recognize the difference between ethyl mercury and methyl mercury.

I also stated quite clearly (bolded because apparently you missed it the first time):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

 Ethylmercury is more rapidly metabolized in the brain and kidneys than methylmercury.  Many scientists believe it is actually more dangerous than methylmercury.