Formal Debate Thread: Unvaccinated children are healthier than fully vaccinated children - READ...

[AdinaL]

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This debate's assertion: 

Unvaccinated children are healthier than fully vaccinated children

[Imakcerka]

Edited to say I'm coming back in a bit after I do some more research. 

[stik]

I suspect that, if you control for exposure to VPDs and underlying health conditions, vaccinated and unvaccinated children are about equally healthy.  I don't have sources to back that up right now - I need to find some, but I thought I would throw that out there to get things started.
 

[purslaine]

We need to define health.

Does health include such things as ADHD?  Allergies?  Mental well-being?  Is it a straight forward "incident of illness" thing?

Here is how WHO defines it:

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

and Merriam Webster:

a : the condition of being sound in body, mind, or spirit; especially : freedom from physical disease or pain

b : the general condition of the body <in poor health> <enjoys good health>

[emmy526]

I agree... who's going to define it for everyone so all drs are on the same page when talking about 'health'?   What is healthy for one dr, may be the opposite for another...an example is the dr who smokes cigarettes and doesn't consider it a bad enough health risk to quit-not for him anyway.  

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

We need to define health.

Does health include such things as ADHD?  Allergies?  Mental well-being?  Is it a straight forward "incident of illness" thing?

Here is how WHO defines it:

Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

and Merriam Webster:

a : the condition of being sound in body, mind, or spirit; especially : freedom from physical disease or pain

b : the general condition of the body <in poor health> <enjoys good health>

[Rrrrrachel]

I have heard the argument that vaccines overwhelm and therefore impair the immune system.  This is not the case. Children and even infants are equipped to handle the pathogens in vaccines.  They are exposed to thousands of pathogens a day, the number in vaccines, even when several vaccines are given at once, pale in comparison.  Further more, while children receive more vaccinations than decades ago, those vaccinations contain fewer pathogens. (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full)

Several studies show that there is not a higher incidence of various infections in recently vaccinated children (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=294&issue=6&page=699) (http://www.aerzteblatt.de/pdf/DI/108/7/m99.pdf).  One study in Germany even showed the incidence of various non-vaccine related infections were LOWER in vaccinated children.  (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023764)  

[AdinaL]

For the sake of this debate, let's define health in a general way, the way most parents would: less colds, less flu, less contagious illnesses.  

Let's leave ADHD. ASD and other neurological ones out of this round.

[MichelleZB]

I can't imagine it makes much difference, normally, as long as the unvaccinated child doesn't get one of the diseases (which are somewhat rare).

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

For the sake of this debate, let's define health in a general way, the way most parents would: less colds, less flu, less contagious illnesses.  

Let's leave ADHD. ASD and other neurological ones out of this round.

So autoimmunity doesn't count as poor health? Allergies, asthma, eczema, etc? I think there's a problem if a parent considers a child with those conditions to be healthy.

[AdinaL]

I didn't say anything about autoimmune conditions.  I said let's use the definition that a parent would use - leaving neurological conditions out of this round.  I gave three examples, but those are not the only examples.  I think autoimmune conditions would fall under things that would cause a parent to define health as good or poor.  

So, further clarification then to the assertion: Unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children.  For purposes of this debate health meaning: less cold/flu, less contagious diseases, less autoimmune conditions - anything that would be considered by a parent/layperson to be "unhealthy".  This debate will leave neurological conditions out, as that is a much broader debate.

Acceptable? Or is there something else that we wish to debate about the assertion? 

[Just1More]

Well, even that definition of health is difficult to determine.

For example, my non-vaxed kids are very healthy, rarely "sick".  Another family we spend time with has kids the same age as mine.  Their kids are fully vaxed and ALWAYS sick.  Always going to the doctor, always on meds, always having tests for stuff.  But the true difference is our perception.  Her kids get a sniffle, and off they go to the doctor.  My kids get a sniffle, and on we go with life unless it gets bad.  Our kids probably had the same thing, but her kids are labeled sick because of her actions.  Mine aren't because, frankly, I ignored it. 

And, perhaps more important to this thread...her vaxed children are also reportably sick, while my non-vaxed are not.  What are the studies going to prove then?  I imagine anything more than antedoctal would be very hard to prove.

I'm interested to see what everyone finds.

[stik]

Originally Posted by ma2two 

So autoimmunity doesn't count as poor health? Allergies, asthma, eczema, etc? I think there's a problem if a parent considers a child with those conditions to be healthy.

Well, to be honest, my kids have all three of those conditions (respiratory allergies, not anything that involves anaphylaxis - we are concerned about bees because of some serious hives in response to ant bites, but neither kid has ever been stung) and I consider my children healthy 99.5% of the time.  For us, eczema, allergies, and asthma are very manageable.  I've had kids with serious allergies in my classes, and without the paperwork and the mandatory epi-pen training at the beginning of the year, you would never know.  Those kids' parents described them as healthy.  And while some asthma is a daily struggle to manage, other kids' asthma is controlled really well and has little/no impact on the child's daily life.  Based on my own experiences, I don't think there is a problem if a parent considers a child with these conditions healthy.  I think we may need to do more work to describe health for the purposes of this discussion.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by stik 

Well, to be honest, my kids have all three of those conditions (respiratory allergies, not anything that involves anaphylaxis - we are concerned about bees because of some serious hives in response to ant bites, but neither kid has ever been stung) and I consider my children healthy 99.5% of the time.  For us, eczema, allergies, and asthma are very manageable.  I've had kids with serious allergies in my classes, and without the paperwork and the mandatory epi-pen training at the beginning of the year, you would never know.  Those kids' parents described them as healthy.  And while some asthma is a daily struggle to manage, other kids' asthma is controlled really well and has little/no impact on the child's daily life.  Based on my own experiences, I don't think there is a problem if a parent considers a child with these conditions healthy.  I think we may need to do more work to describe health for the purposes of this discussion.

I think health should be defined in a biological sense, not how much a condition bothers someone or affects their day to day lives. I really don't understand how anyone could consider someone with asthma to be healthy, but I realize a lot of people do.

And because I know there are parents who consider their children with autoimmune conditions to be healthy, I don't think this debate will work with the word "healthy" in the premise. I think there should be a list of health conditions, and an effort to see if never vaccinated children have fewer of them, the same, or more than fully vaccinated children.

[Just1More]

Originally Posted by ma2two 

 I think there should be a list of health conditions, and an effort to see if never vaccinated children have fewer of them, the same, or more than fully vaccinated children.

I agree with this.  I think we need to take them one at a time. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by ma2two 

I think health should be defined in a biological sense, not how much a condition bothers someone or affects their day to day lives. I really don't understand how anyone could consider someone with asthma to be healthy, but I realize a lot of people do.

And because I know there are parents who consider their children with autoimmune conditions to be healthy, I don't think this debate will work with the word "healthy" in the premise. I think there should be a list of health conditions, and an effort to see if never vaccinated children have fewer of them, the same, or more than fully vaccinated children.

I would agree: asthma is asthma - even if it is a spectrum and many people roam around feeling fine much of the time.

Medication is prescribed for it, activities are sometimes curtailed because of it, asthmatics probably have more doctor and hospital visits for respiratory issues, etc 

Health is not simply not sickly.   

I agree with ma2two - health should be defined in a biological sense (for me that means - do they have xyz).  Getting a handle on who reports as sickly could be really difficult and subjective.

[stik]

I really don't understand how anyone could consider someone with asthma to be healthy, but I realize a lot of people do.

My asthmatic 5yo had a playdate with a friend in the morning and spent the afternoon charging around the backyard and riding her scooter in the driveway.  She showed the 2.5 yo from next door how to climb a rope ladder.  We had a chat about not standing in the front yard and screaming for the kids from down the street.  And now she's had a puff on her inhaler for prophylaxis and gone to bed.  She's REALLY physically active.  She can climb the rock wall at REI, swim across an Olympic-sized pool by herself in any direction you like, and hike for hours.  She glows.  If she's not healthy, none of us are.  I don't think you can generalize from her and say that actually all asthmatic kids are fine, but nor can you generalize against her and say that all asthmatic kids are unhealthy. 

If our list of conditions is too specific, we're going to have a lot of difficulty finding sources.  As many threads have pointed out before, there are few studies comparing unvaccinated and vaccinated children.  There are more studies on partially vs. fully vaccinated children. 

Could we start with frequency of contagious illnesses?  There might be some studies on that we could track down.  I don't know of any for asthma.  Rrrrachel cited a German study in another thread earlier today.  Rrrrachel, would you be willing to link that study to this thread so we could see what specific conditions we could constructively bring into the conversation?
 

[AdinaL]

You guys are killing me. LOL

So, if you have to have evidence (that is not "my neighbor's kids always have colds and mine don't") chances are that evidence is going to be based on reported illness that required treatment, right? So, illness requiring treatment would be considered unhealthy by most. So start digging.

The common argument that you hear thrown around is that unvaxed kids are more healthy than their vaxed counterparts. So if you go to research tha what do you find? Vaxed kids have more allergies, but less flu? Unvaxed kids have less flu, but more athlete's foot?

Run with it folks. Newbies to this research are going to start with a premise such as this one and start googling...where does that get you?

[Just1More]

http://www.vaccineinjury.info/home.html

I don't know if this is the same study or not, and I don't know if this is a reputable site (anyone know?), but this appears to be a huge study in-process debating this very question.

[Imakcerka]

Can I just start by saying I'm at a loss on this one.  I have looked everywhere and what I have found is evenly split.  This is going to be a tough one.  I'm looking for all illnesses.  All things you may go to the Dr. for.  And I know you said non neuro Adina but everything I've looked at so far throws it all in together and it's very hard to ignore parts of it.  Ya know?  I'll be back.  Either way this is a very good start in my opinion.

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Just1More 

http://www.vaccineinjury.info/home.html

I don't know if this is the same study or not, and I don't know if this is a reputable site (anyone know?), but this appears to be a huge study in-process debating this very question.

That is not the same study I was referring to. That is a very unscientific Internet poll.