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Formal Debate Thread: Unvaccinated children are healthier than fully vaccinated children - READ... - Page 5  

post #81 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorehon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
One looked at children vaxxed at 60 days versus 90 days and went by a parents diary (which is not much more than anecdotes).

 

If the researchers asked all participating parents to complete a "diary" with specific, defined information, then this is a huge improvement over polling or "my neighbor's kids are always sick, but mine aren't."  It's not the same level of detail as if they had taken temps and tested snot every day for a year, but they probably made significant efforts to make sure that their group had consistent standards to work with.  


And if were talking about what a typical parent would consider "healthy" it becomes even more relevant.
post #82 of 147

I reached the end of the internet.  I wanted to come to this debate prepared.  What I have found is the difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed is that unvaxxed children have a much higher risk of acquiring a vaccine-preventable disease. 

 

It appears as though they are equally as healthy until there is an outbreak.  I could give references but I just finished reading over 50 different articles.  Maybe more all of them biased according to their perspective sides.

post #83 of 147
I just wanted to say I haven't participated in the debate as I only have my phone to access the Internet while I am away from home, but I've appreciated reading it all and how civil everyone has been. Thank you!
post #84 of 147

I've enjoyed reading as well.  I really like how everyone is putting in and being respectful.  Goes a long way.

post #85 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

I reached the end of the internet.  I wanted to come to this debate prepared.  What I have found is the difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed is that unvaxxed children have a much higher risk of acquiring a vaccine-preventable disease. 

It appears as though they are equally as healthy until there is an outbreak.  I could give references but I just finished reading over 50 different articles.  Maybe more all of them biased according to their perspective sides.

The only thing I am aware of other than that is that I know research has been done in developing countries regarding non-specific effects (both beneficial and detrimental depending on the situation) of some particular vaccines on all-cause mortality (maybe morbidity too, can't remember). But I am not certain if/how those findings would relate to vaccination in developed areas. Overall, I think there are just so many problems with designing a study looking at this issue that I'm not sure any real meaningful results can be obtained.
post #86 of 147
I think those studies are interesting and I kept waiting for someone to bring them up. I wonder if they're a case of because someone is immunized they live longer and therefore have mor elf an opportunity to die of things other than the vpd.
post #87 of 147
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

 

Children and even infants are equipped to handle the pathogens in vaccines.  They are exposed to thousands of pathogens a day, the number in vaccines, even when several vaccines are given at once, pale in comparison.  

 

I posit NO child is equipped to handle the METHOD of "vaccination". The direct injection of toxins directly into the body uncensored by the bodies normal censoring mechanisms is UNNATURAL and RISKY.

 

Doctor Andrew Moulden has shown us the disastrous results of this transgression on our natural body order.

 

http://vactruth.com/2009/08/03/vaccinations-are-causing-impaired-blood-flow-ischemia-chronic-illness-disease-and-death-for-us-all-hp/

post #88 of 147
The body is absolutely equipped to handle pathogens introduced this way. Otherwise it would be a major health crisis every time you child skinned their knee or lost a tooth. It does not bypass all of the bodies "censoring systems," there is something called the lymphatic system whose role is to handle these things.
post #89 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post

I think we can get somewhere without statistics, also.

 

For unvaccinated children to be healthier, there would have to be something in vaccines that causes ill health. Have vaccines been shown to cause long term ill health? What would the mechanism there be?

 

Some "vaccine" ingredients

 

– thimerosal (mercury);
– aluminum hydroxide and phosphate;
– ammonium sulfate;
– amphotericin B,
– animal tissues and fluids, including horse blood, rabbit brain, dog kidney, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, pig blood, and porcine (pig) protein/tissue;

-- Antibiotics
– calf serum and fetal bovine serum;
– betapropiolactone;
– macerated cancer cells;
– egg protein

-- formaldehyde;
– formalin;

-- Human Diploid Tissue – organ and tissue from aborted baby tissue
– synthetic phenol;
– gelatin and hydrolyzed gelatin;
– glycerol;
– human diploid cells (from aborted human fetal tissue);
-- Methanol

– MSG;
– the anti-biotics neomycin and neomycin sulfate;
– phenol red indicator disinfectant dye;
– phenoxyethanol (antifreeze);
– potassium monophosphate;
– polymyxin B;
– polysorbate 20 and 80;

-- Polyoxidonium – Synthetic polymers and nanomaterials
– residual MRC5 proteins;
– sorbitol;
– sucrose;

-- Squalene – An oil based adjuvant that has never been approved in the United States as safe
– tri(n)butylphosphate;

-- Triton X-100: A detergent that should not be injected into the human bloodstream
– VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells linked to the SV-40 virus known to cause leukemia and MANY other cancers
– washed sheep red blood cells.

post #90 of 147
That article seems to revolve around the idea that vaccines cause an increase in white blood cells, which create a kind of log jam leading to ischemia. You know what else causes an increase in white blood cells? In far larger numbers than vaccines? Infections. Such as infections from vaccine preventable diseases.
post #91 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

The body is absolutely equipped to handle pathogens introduced this way. Otherwise it would be a major health crisis every time you child skinned their knee or lost a tooth. It does not bypass all of the bodies "censoring systems," there is something called the lymphatic system whose role is to handle these things.

 

When your child skins a knee he does NOT inject himself with a two inch long needle and inject the dirt DEEP into his body.

 

The human body is equipped to handle cuts and scrapes; it is not equipped to handle the deep injection of toxins.

post #92 of 147
Louis, your list of ingredients is off topic unless you can provide some documentation that those ingredients in the amounts contained in vaccines harm children's overall health. Not that they cause adverse reactions in a small number of cases, but that they lead to a generally less healthy life for children who have been vaccinated.
post #93 of 147
I would like to see some documentation on that two inch measurement, but that aside, once you get through the skin I think it's pretty much all the same until you hit bone. Skin on an adult is around .35 to 4.5mm thick, depending on what part of the body you're talking about. Presumably on a baby or child skin tends to be thinner. So no, I'm not convinced there I such of a difference between a scrape (ok, a serious scrape) or a cut and an injection.

(read more about skin here: http://dermatology.about.com/cs/skinanatomy/a/anatomy.htm)
post #94 of 147
Looks like even for adults we're talking injections 1.5" or less. Much shallower for infants and children.

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf
post #95 of 147
Wow, and a bunch of vaccines are subcutaneous not intramuscular, so their injection is even shallower.
post #96 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisw View Post

 

Some "vaccine" ingredients

 

– thimerosal (mercury);
– aluminum hydroxide and phosphate;
– ammonium sulfate;
– amphotericin B,
– animal tissues and fluids, including horse blood, rabbit brain, dog kidney, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, pig blood, and porcine (pig) protein/tissue;

-- Antibiotics
– calf serum and fetal bovine serum;
– betapropiolactone;
– macerated cancer cells;
– egg protein

-- formaldehyde;
– formalin;

-- Human Diploid Tissue – organ and tissue from aborted baby tissue
– synthetic phenol;
– gelatin and hydrolyzed gelatin;
– glycerol;
– human diploid cells (from aborted human fetal tissue);
-- Methanol

– MSG;
– the anti-biotics neomycin and neomycin sulfate;
– phenol red indicator disinfectant dye;
– phenoxyethanol (antifreeze);
– potassium monophosphate;
– polymyxin B;
– polysorbate 20 and 80;

-- Polyoxidonium – Synthetic polymers and nanomaterials
– residual MRC5 proteins;
– sorbitol;
– sucrose;

-- Squalene – An oil based adjuvant that has never been approved in the United States as safe
– tri(n)butylphosphate;

-- Triton X-100: A detergent that should not be injected into the human bloodstream
– VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells linked to the SV-40 virus known to cause leukemia and MANY other cancers
– washed sheep red blood cells.

 

Yeah, okay. But that's not my question. I wanted to know if any of those ingredients are known to cause ill health in trace quantities. Heck, some of those things aren't even dangerous in fairly large quantities.

post #97 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I think those studies are interesting and I kept waiting for someone to bring them up. I wonder if they're a case of because someone is immunized they live longer and therefore have mor elf an opportunity to die of things other than the vpd.

I don't think that's a conclusion that would be supported by what I'm thinking of since it looks at higher mortality related to some specific vaccines & lower mortality related to others. I'm kind of rushed today so I wanted to sort of show you what I'm talking about-

http://adc.bmj.com/content/95/9/662.full?ijkey=cae8ebefd98b3fc1101c463ede066fc6cec99b81&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/161.full
http://www.bandim.org/download.php?f=1acf60cbc50f9328e67e6a612ef6c060

So is there anything to the assertion that measles & BCG vaccination reduce overall mortality in children in developing countries while DTP & polio vaccination are related to higher mortality rates in those children? If so, it seems like they're saying some vaccines make the kids healthier overall while some make them sicker. Would that have any relevance with regard to overall child health in developed countries?
post #98 of 147
From the second link you posted:

"As early as the mid-1970s, measles vaccination showed an overall improvement in the probability of child survival, for children aged 12–24 months old in particular.1 Subsequent studies2– 7 on measles vaccination status and child mortality across different populations reported substantial reductions in overall mortality of at least 30%, particularly in high child mortality areas. A recent case-control study,8 using data collected prospectively, demonstrated that measles vaccination also reduced overall child mortality by 27%, especially in children aged 12–59 months old, in relatively low mortality populations of sustained high childhood vaccination coverage (more than 90%) over the past decade. This phenomenon has been termed the ‘non-specific beneficial’ effect of vaccines,"

Hmm, so some vaccines lower "all cause mortality"

Crap, my baby woke up, I will have to come back and finish in a minute.
post #99 of 147
Ok sorry.

So some lower all cause mortality, seeming to imply vaccinated children are healthier. That article then goes on to say some don't lower mortality, but dot raise it either. It doesn't talk about the sex specific impact of dtp that I saw. I have ward about that before and I still have questions about it. Presumably the issue is while it lowers death from d, t, or p te death rate from other things go up, but the overall death rate goes down? I haven't been able to find clear information about that.

I got started on the third article. Seems like a lot of good information there but not something im going to be able to get through tonight.
post #100 of 147
I know, it's a lot right? I didn't pull all the individual studies & reviews because I just don't have the time but many of them are referenced in those pieces so you should be able to find some interesting things. The ones about male-female differences are probably in the Bandim stuff.

This is sort of interesting too - in consideration of how vaccine schedules may impact overall health effects:
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/3/e000707.full
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