Public School & Homeschool? - Page 3

[zebra15]

I know I'm late to the thread but if the OP is still looking for some science type ideas I have a couple thoughts.

When DS was in early elementary school he enjoyed 'The Magic School Bus' which was available at the library. Both the books and the DVD's - yes the reading level and probably the material were below his learning level but the cartoons and music were right at his attention level.  He was able to take the basic thoughts, concepts, principles and totally run with them!  (FWIW he loved the 8x8 picture books so much more than the chapter books).   He also loved (and still loves) puzzles.  He just finished 1000 pcs of the Periodic Table and we will get that framed.  We've also had books on the elements (T. Grey) and chemistry in general.  Legos, building and blocks have been a huge hit and a great investment.  Activities like Lego camp, science camp and weekend programs are wonderful as well.

One concern about the OP's kiddo, if s/he is HG/PG and only in the 1st grade AND your district holds off on accommodation until 3rd grade it could be too late for your child. By the time my kiddo was 3rd grade age he was working at late elementary school level and reading at the high school level.  Any accommodation a public school could have offered would not have worked anyway.  Academically I had this high functioning kiddo, emotionally I had a 7-8 yr old.

OP  keep your eyes peeled.  There could be a school that better matches your child's needs - magnet, charter, private, public with open enrollment etc -  Just because you are slotted for school x doesn't mean you are stuck there.  Kids can make new friends, kids tend to adjust fairly well to new environments.  Just something to think about.

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by chaimom 

 I'm sorry, but I can't take your opinion seriously after this comment. LOL!  What an amazing statement. May I ask what research backs this up?

It's not research.  It's history and observation.  

The psychological experience of traditional school -- the social experience included -- was explicitly designed to adapt the population to the needs of the industrial revolution.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

It's not research.  It's history and observation.  

The psychological experience of traditional school -- the social experience included -- was explicitly designed to adapt the population to the needs of the industrial revolution.

Bolding mine.

I've tried to resist taking this thread OT, but I can't let this go. Schools have existed pretty much as long as civilization has existed. The concept pre-dates the Industrial Revolution by millenia. The Ancient Babylonians had schools. The concept of children gathering together for instruction is not something new. It's actually a logical and natural development of humans living together in communities.  

I really don't think that it will be helpful to the OP to delve into the different types of schools and classrooms and pedagogical theories that exist and the huge variety of school experiences that are available today. I also don't want this to devolve into a school vs. homeschool discussion. But really....

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

Schools have existed pretty much as long as civilization has existed. The concept pre-dates the Industrial Revolution by millenia. 

The structure of modern compulsory state-funded mass-education, though, definitely draws on the Prussian military and the industrial model. There were certainly gatherings of children under the tutelage of adults for millennia, but those were in many ways different from our current state-run, authority-based compulsory mass education public schools. For instance, schooling was voluntary on the part of the family, and the teachers were paid by the family or the church and were therefore in a very real sense accountable to their learners. Many of the structures we now take for granted (age-levelled classrooms, rigidly subject-by-subject blocks of instruction, detentions, standardized testing, etc.) are part of that military heritage and were adopted as a way to produce a compliant class of worker bees. An excellent scholarly examination of all of this is "An Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. 

My middle children attend a lovely, humane, innovative public school. I would take issue with pigpokey's implication about the structure of social relationships at school, at least in my experience. However I do think that there is a sense in which the authority-driven mass-education structure of public school tends to favour a style of interaction which is unusual in a free society governed by fundamental rights.

Miranda

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

...An excellent scholarly examination of all of this is "An Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. 

My middle children attend a lovely, humane, innovative public school. I would take issue with pigpokey's implication about the structure of social relationships at school, at least in my experience.

yeah, I've read that book too, and it does not reflect my kids' experience.

Education plays out differently in different parts of the US and in different countries, which is part of why the sweeping generalizations don't work. Charter schools and magnet school for example, have had a massive impact on the city we currently live in. They've effected how the neighborhood schools approach things by making the publicly funded schools compete for customers with other publicly funded schools.

Schools continue to evolve and change. Sometimes in positive ways, sometimes in negative. But to think that schools function the same way the did 50 or 100 years ago is just foolish.  There is certain rhetoric that gets repeated over and over in the homeschooling community, so many homeschoolers think its true. But when that rhetoric gets repeated to other people having other experiences, it really falls flat.

The schools my kids have attended, both public and private, were not focused on turning out factory workers. And their social interactions weren't stilted based on Prussian history. Really.

For our family, homeschooling became phenomenal isolating when we lived in an area where ALL homeschooling groups required signing a statement of faith for a religion we don't practice or believe in. After having attempted to function in that environment, one of my DDs was really surprised at how the separation of church and state work in government funded schools. She was thrilled at starting at a traditional public school, where it was illegal for people to make rules about what she could and could do based in her religion.

It was just sad. I honestly didn't realize how deeply the bizarre homeschooling situation was effecting her until after she started school.

[pickle18]

It all seems kinda apples and oranges to me.  It's not a fair comparison to pit your amazingly-awesome-super-terrific homeschooling group against a crappy, poorly funded public school - but it is equally unfair to compare an excellent public school to an isolating, bizarre, religiously-exclusive homeschooling experience. 

Whether public school is better for your child than the alternative of homeschooling depends largely on your own desire as a parent to homeschool, your child's preferred learning style, educational resources, your available community in either situation, etc.  

Anyway, I don't think any of that has anything to do with the facts that Miranda pointed out.  I think that there are elements of public school that are structured toward an industrial society and those that draw from military traditions.  I do think there is something artificial about kids spending all day in social situations with only kids of their exact age, about the general "jump when we say jump" mentality of bells ringing and switching subjects.  Those things that are perceived as necessary to structure and organize a massive institution that does run much like a knowledge factory, that liberates parents to work outside the home, etc.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

An excellent scholarly examination of all of this is "An Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto. 

I'm aware of Gatto's work. "Excellent scholarly examination" is a pretty generous description, considering the lack of proper citations and questionable statistics he throws around without verification. Without such little academic niceties and his unfocused, obviously biased invective, it's open to dismiss it as rambling, repetitive rhetoric. One person's "passionate" is another person's "polemical". As an aside, I have the same difficulty reading Grace Llewellyn, another legendary homeschooling advocate. Both obscure their important contributions to the discussion about education with disorganized, poorly edited writing. I often wonder, since many homeschoolers seem to consider their books to be wonderful examples of written work, what kind of writing the homeschooling children are producing if these are the authors that they are emulating. 

Having said that, I agree that Gatto has some important things to say about the history and development of schools. However, with his obvious prejudice against any kind of organized educational system, he obscures the fact that "schooling" as a community activity is natural and normal and has occurred throughout human history. The libertarian ideal of dismantling all schools of any kind and leaving education to family units - parents - on the basis that it is the most natural and optimal method for learning rests on a fallacious belief about the social history of humans. Unfortunately, that's the take-away that I've often seen in people who are enthralled by Gatto. Usually I ignore the homeschooling rhetoric that "school" is an unnatural and twisted modern concept. For the purposes of the discussion in this thread, I don't think it's fair to discuss whether school is a valid option for the OP's child and the concepts of community and learning without a more complete understanding of this history. 

I have more to say, but dd needs the computer...back later....

[ollyoxenfree]

I thought I'd get back to this discussion earlier, but I haven't managed to get the time before now. It's just as well, because although I have a lot more to say, I've reconsidered.  I was more than a little grumpy yesterday when I wrote my post. I was procrastinating and feeling guilty about that. And Gatto kinda irks me because he has such a black and white libertarian view and offers no real help or hope. So that hit a nerve. I acknowledge that he has important things to say about the history of public schooling. Personally, I wonder what public schools would look like if Maria Montessori had received more respect when she visited the U.S. in 1914, instead of being undermined, criticized and dismissed by the administration of the day. I suspect that a lot of the complaints about age-leveled classrooms, grading, standardized testing, interrupted workflow, over-regulation and other "factory model" issues would be either reduced or eliminated. Whatever, it's futile to speculate.  

Anyway, I don't think it's really appropriate for me to continue, since it isn't really helpful in this thread.  

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

And Gatto kinda irks me because he has such a black and white libertarian view and offers no real help or hope.

I agree. I used to be a fan, and I think I've read all his works. But now through the filter of wider experience, I see him as very limited. Using writings about the shortcoming of SOME schools doesn't  back up homeschooling in the way many homeschoolers believe it does. It creates this false belief that schools, suck there fore, homeschooling is good. But that isn't true. Some schools are quite good, esp for the right students. And homeschooling depends on so, so many factors, including the exact parents and children involved and the community in which they live, that no generalizations are really possible.

I think your comments are helpful in the thread, and the OP thinks so as well. I don't think it's appropriate to allow homeschoolers to dictate every conversation on Mothering.com. They have their own board, which is a support only board. The rest of mothering, including the gifted board, is fair game. If they want to bring stuff up, they open the door.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I don't think it's appropriate to allow homeschoolers to dictate every conversation on Mothering.com. They have their own board, which is a support only board. The rest of mothering, including the gifted board, is fair game. If they want to bring stuff up, they open the door.

This seems an incredibly divisive portrayal. As a parent with kids in both camps (homeschooling and school-going) I would really beg to differ with this interpretation. I hope that conversations can continue in respectful and informative ways rather than factionalizing in this way.

Miranda

[chaimom]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

This seems an incredibly divisive portrayal. As a parent with kids in both camps (homeschooling and school-going) I would really beg to differ with this interpretation. I hope that conversations can continue in respectful and informative ways rather than factionalizing in this way.

Miranda

I think it's incredibly divisive --and utterly wrong-- to make the sweeping statement that public schools are designed to created relationships akin to those of workers in coal mines and factories whereas the relationships among homeschoolers are much more enlightened!

Look, I'm not opposed to homeschool--we are considering it for my PG boy--but I am under no illusions that it is going to be the be-all, end- all for his education. And the biggest thing I will regret is his daily interaction with other kids; the type that will apparently turn him into a factory worker. (Not.)

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by chaimom 

I think it's incredibly divisive --and utterly wrong-- to make the sweeping statement that public schools are designed to created relationships akin to those of workers in coal mines and factories whereas the relationships among homeschoolers are much more enlightened!

I agree, and I said as much in my post that followed on the heels of that one.

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

.....a dichotomy which can easily create divisions and comparisons and defensiveness. 

But a tit for tat mentality doesn't serve a community like this well. Just because a homeschooler makes a divisive statement, doesn't mean school parents should up the ante. And while I understand how pigpokey's original post set a lot of people off, people have continued to quote it over and over, and have basically ignored what she wrote qualifying and retracting that statement (bolding mine).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

In reading what I wrote, I accidentally didn't write what I really meant.  ..... What I meant is what you are describing ... forming relationships through activities, analogous to adult work (theater, sports, sometimes homeschool classes like Spanish half day programs or day long art schools), not necessarily just with other homeschoolers, but not really just with people you see in your communities, but in intentional communities that come together and break apart.  Homeschoolers sometimes have more time to be in these multiple interest communities.

That doesn't seem particularly divisive to me. I just think that when someone accidentally, by their own admission, makes a divisive statement, that we have the option of responding in two ways: we can soften the divisiveness by seeking understanding, or we can draw us vs. them lines in the sand. I much prefer the former.

Miranda

[Mommykendra]

Didn't read past the first page, so sorry if anything I see is repeat or irrelevant.

DD is 10 and from the time she was little, she preferred academics over the typical playing.  If she did play it was very academically based--setting up her dolls and stuffed animals to teach them in school, sorting her toys by size/color, figuring out cause and effect with different things, etc.  Once she learned to read and write (age 3), she wanted to do workbooks or have us write math problems on papers for her.  Basically--she was happy if she was doing something academic based.

She also had many, many anxiety issues and even though we fully planned on homeschooling her we sent her to preschool and later public school because we knew it was the best for her anxiety and other sensory issues.  She was in preschool 5 hours a week and then later Kindergarten full day-5 days a week.  Academically, she learned very little, but socially, emotionally and mentally she thrived and did amazing! 

From the time she was in preschool, until now the summer after 4th grade--she has came home and wanted to continue working on academic.  Be it--playing school with her little brothers and teaching them, working on workbooks, writing book reviews, figuring out math, playing academic based games--she still is more content when she is doing academic based word--versus not.

I got some well meaning friends/family telling me I was pushing her, encouraging me to pull her out of school and homeschool, telling me to let her be a kid---but I have to do what is best for her and follow her cues.  It is harder now with 3 kids 5 and under to keep her challenged academically and continually be an active part of her after school schooling, but we still try.

Her favorite thing to do academically is play games---we have math games, social study games, science games, geography games, etc...and she love them.  We also have oodles and oodles of workbooks that she can work on.

Pinterest.com has has a lot of ideas to meet their interests, fulfill that academic hunger and still have fun!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

But a tit for tat mentality doesn't serve a community like this well. Just because a homeschooler makes a divisive statement, doesn't mean school parents should up the ante. And while I understand how pigpokey's original post set a lot of people off, people have continued to quote it over and over, and have basically ignored what she wrote qualifying and retracting that statement (bolding mine).

I don't have a tit for tat mentality, and I don't see pointing out when others make divisive statements as being divisive myself.

I would love to see a day when mothering could host a respectful discussion about the pros and cons of homeschooling VS school is such a way that both sides feel heard and understood, and feel that they can openly discuss the cons of whatever they are doing without being attacked by the other side for doing the "wrong" thing. However, we ain't there.

I haven't made any over reaching statements about homeschooling. I've stuck with pointing out generalizations made by homeschoolers. That's all. 

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

 ... forming relationships through activities, analogous to adult work (theater, sports, sometimes homeschool classes like Spanish half day programs or day long art schools), not necessarily just with other homeschoolers, but not really just with people you see in your communities, but in intentional communities that come together and break apart.  Homeschoolers sometimes have more time to be in these multiple interest communities.

---

sure, sometimes homeschoolers have more time to be in multiple interest communities, BUT sometimes kids attending school find that school IS a multiple interest community.

My kids are not the ONLY former homeschoolers I know who feel more connected in school than out, and that wasn't from a lack of effort on my part. This is real -- for some kids school (either a community based school or a charter/private chosen to a good fit for the family's values) provides a more solid social base.

Why is that so hard for homeschoolers to admit? That some kids have friends at school and like it there? How is it a threat to homeschooling working for OTHER families?

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Why is that so hard for homeschoolers to admit? That some kids have friends at school and like it there? How is it a threat to homeschooling working for OTHER families?

I readily admit that. My 13- and 15-year-olds are thriving in school. I've said it plenty of times, and have even said so in this thread. 

Miranda

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by browneyedmamasf 

I have a 6 year old daughter. She has never been tested as gifted but I believe she is. Her memory is amazing. She has been reading since she was four years old, and the school tested her reading levels and determined she was at the level expected of fifth graders. Anything she hears once she knows permanently.  She loves science and math and literature so we give her more and more everyday. The problem is she is bored at school. During lessons she is spaced out daydreaming. When the teachers engages her she is happy and really loves going to school. They were going to skip her up a few grades but maturity wise she is still a kindergarten. She starts first grade in the fall, but we know she has already learned what will be taught. I want to supplement her public school education, because she does not want to do full home school. I was wondering if anyone here had any suggestions. 

Thanks

Michelle

Hi. We are sort of in the same boat.

Because I was afraid that his academic needs may not be met in school (public or private- our private schools here are all religious and not that great either), we considered homeschooling for quite a while. My DS has the type of personality that loves doing workbooks. When he was much younger, I bought a lot of workbooks in the hopes of sitting down with him and doing it together. Fortunately, life got in the way and I never got around to doing that. At around 3 yrs old, he started showing interest in them and he would constantly pull them out of his book piles and do them. He was just a beginning reader then but I suppose he got the instructions from the context clues in the page. Anyway, long story short, he absolutely loves workbooks, reading and drawing.

It was because of this that we started to rethink our position on homeschooling. He also loves art and crafts - something that I am just not very good at and in fact gives me a lot of anxiety. Fortunately, a slot opened up for him at a charter school that had an arts and science focus with an integrated, multi-disciplinary approach. Admittedly, I as still skeptical but we decided to give it a try. I was so anxious about what he would do while the rest of the class learned their ABCs when he was already reading chapter books at this point. Because of the multi-disciplinary approach however (they did it through movement, visual arts and scientific exploration), my DS never came home bored. Also, a lot of the work is open-ended so he really is able to take things to his level and his teacher is also able to explore this with him a bit.

On the academic side, we do a bit of after-school stuff although not everyday. I gauge how he is on whether he needs to decompress (you know, after being social for a solid 6 hours, a lot for my loner). Most days, there really isn't any after-school stuff that goes on. If any, maybe a few pages of Singapore Math. On weekends we do 15-30 minutes of Singapore Math or some writing (as his handwriting needs a bit of work).

I guess long story short, I would be more concerned about addressing the boredom at school. Although I am of the persuasion that there is a healthy amount of boredom for kids too. But if you feel that her time is wasted at school with the daydreaming, is there any way for her teachers to address that through giving her more open ended activities? Or maybe the school is not the right fit? It's just I feel that after school supplementation won't make up the big chunk of time that is wasted at school if you feel that her needs/interests are not being addressed there.

Fortunately for us, we were able to find a good fit for our son where he could find the enrichment in the arts that would certainly have been a challenge for me to provide if we homeschooled given my personality and where we live. While the school he is in now is not focused in the academics, the other equally important parts are being addressed there. For my family, it is easier for us to supplement his academic needs than to meet his social needs or the arts.

[pigpokey]

I appreciate the people who were attempting to see what I was saying.  I am not sure I said everything some people think I said.  I did not have the most useful experience in school / uni / graduate school / law school notwithstanding "thriving" there academically and doing fine socially.  I hope I do better with my kids but who knows.  The world is constantly changing and we all have to keep up.

Edited by pigpokey - 7/1/12 at 4:52pm

[Buzzbuzz]

"but those were in many ways different from our current state-run, authority-based compulsory mass education public schools."

The only reason my grandmother made it through the sixth grade was thanks to state run, compulsory education.  She did very, very well but after the sixth grade her father could withdraw her and he did.  She was the oldest girl on the family farm and her mother needed help.

She described what it was like to have the principal for the school come and visit to try to convince her father to let her continue her education.  I don't think she ever really got over that experience.

[ollyoxenfree]

I have had a very busy weekend and just haven't been able to keep up with this conversation. I don't know how the following "sounds", so please know that I am writing dispassionately and I am not trying to be inflammatory or offensive. 

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I think your comments are helpful in the thread, and the OP thinks so as well. 

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

But a tit for tat mentality doesn't serve a community like this well. Just because a homeschooler makes a divisive statement, doesn't mean school parents should up the ante. And while I understand how pigpokey's original post set a lot of people off, people have continued to quote it over and over, and have basically ignored what she wrote qualifying and retracting that statement (bolding mine).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

In reading what I wrote, I accidentally didn't write what I really meant.  ..... What I meant is what you are describing ... forming relationships through activities, analogous to adult work (theater, sports, sometimes homeschool classes like Spanish half day programs or day long art schools), not necessarily just with other homeschoolers, but not really just with people you see in your communities, but in intentional communities that come together and break apart.  Homeschoolers sometimes have more time to be in these multiple interest communities.

That doesn't seem particularly divisive to me. I just think that when someone accidentally, by their own admission, makes a divisive statement, that we have the option of responding in two ways: we can soften the divisiveness by seeking understanding, or we can draw us vs. them lines in the sand. I much prefer the former.

Linda, thanks for your supportive words. 

To be clear, when I decided against writing anything further, it was my own decision. I wasn't discouraged by anyone. I realized that the OP originally asked for some practical input about academic enrichment. It seemed inappropriate to venture off on an abstract discussion about the history of schooling and childhood and communities and the culture and administration of modern schools. Which is where I was heading when I reconsidered.  

However, I will say that I think it was entirely appropriate to respond initially, even though I don't think expanding into a lengthy discourse is necessary. I don't think that what anyone wrote was "tit-for-tat". If it does apply, then I'd say that inserting Gatto, Prussians and military and industrial interests into the thread seemed to "up the ante" and was not a response that was likely to soften any divisiveness. 

In honesty, I find "tit-for-tat" an unfairly belittling way of describing this conversation. I realize that tone is difficult to interpret from written posts, so it probably wasn't intended, but to me, this sounds "schoolmarmish"  (of all things!) and like a lecture to naughty children. And that is inappropriate. If a homeschooler makes an statement that is disagreeable or offensive, they can't expect that no one will engage in further discussion of the issues raised. There will be responses. Others will provide a different perspective - sometimes in a challenging manner. That isn't "tit-for-tat". That's dialogue, discussion, conversation. The same holds true when schoolers make statements that compel responses from homeschoolers. That's what happens in an open, honest, forum where the free exchange of opinions, ideas and information is nurtured and encouraged. It isn't always pleasant or comfortable. It shouldn't be, because sometimes hearing the truth is hard. 

Anyway, I again find myself heading off-topic from the OP's request for help, so I'll stop there.

Unfortunately, I will be without internet access for a few days. I've tried to write this post as an expression of my feelings, impressions, and beliefs and, believe it or not, without rancor. If I've failed, then I'll be back in a few days to respond. 

 

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by Buzzbuzz 

"but those were in many ways different from our current state-run, authority-based compulsory mass education public schools."

The only reason my grandmother made it through the sixth grade was thanks to state run, compulsory education.  She did very, very well but after the sixth grade her father could withdraw her and he did.  She was the oldest girl on the family farm and her mother needed help.

She described what it was like to have the principal for the school come and visit to try to convince her father to let her continue her education.  I don't think she ever really got over that experience.

We're not talking about whether children should be protected from educational neglect.  I believe we were talking about the socialization benefits of various forms of education, branching off from the OP's desire to send her gifted child to full day age-graded school and then meet her academic needs afterschool.  Initially the OP stated it was because her daughter so strongly desired that social experience, and then the OP stated that she also strongly desired that social experience for her daughter.  We then branched off into a discussion of ideas about the history of that particular experience, its historical goals and its current implementation. 

Of course not all children would be better prepared for adulthood in an out of full day school environment versus public school.  Children, schools and environments vary widely. 

The Amish, Mennonite, etc. still pull their kids out of the gov't funded in-same-community schools at 6th?8th? grade and I'm sure there are many home schooled family farmers / traditional communities outside the Amish, Mennonite, FLDS, etc with a similar emphasis on the family business and homemaking in the early teen years.  Our current big spending testing-heavy age-graded public schools have not changed this.  Parents try to prepare their children for the world they aspire for their children to live in, and/or feel their children will have to settle for.