Gifted label, IQ testing, and maiking decisions about kindergarten

[parsley]

I'm totally new to this forum and I'm not technically sure I should be here :) but I'm hoping to learn from your collective experience and wisdom. 

My DD1 is 4 years old and will enter kindergarten next Fall (Fall 2013).  Over the coming year we need to make several decisions about what school she will go to.  We live in a city with districted schools, magnet schools and charter schools.  I need to submit our application (lottery only) for the magnet schools and/or charter schools in the late Fall and I need to list our preferences on that application.   So, at this point, I'm trying to envision what type of school will be best for my DD overall and one big thing I find myself taking into account is what type of gifted programs are offered and how they are integrated-- as in are kids bussed out for gifted once a week or is there a gifted program in the school.  (The other big thing is availability of arts instruction).

But, my DD has not had any testing done and has not been labelled as gifted (which is totally standard, I assume that most kids are tested and labelled at some point during their school years).  But, the idea that she is gifted is all my assumption... but based on evidence.  We're assuming she's gifted based on 1) the fact that DH and I were both in the gifted programs throughout our schooling, scored at the top on testing, etc... and we're both now highly educated; 2) her pediatrician (who's exceptionally laid-back) routinely uses the phrases "exceptional," "advanced," and "precocious" about her verbal and cognitive abilities; 3) her preschool observation reports typically highlight that she's "the only one in the class who can..." with regard to her concentration, level of complication in games, math skills or verbal skills.  And, this is a class full of dr. and prof.'s children; 4) when I look at basic checklists she's typically 2-4 years ahead on everything cognitive, creative or verbal (age typical for physical and social).  and 5) a good friend who teaches 5th grade consistently points out that the types of things my daughter comprehends and follows are more complicated than many of her 5th graders (novels that we read at night for example).  All that said, I don't think she's a genius... just bright.

So I'm really looking for feedback both on a) advice on testing or not and b) advice on choosing a kindergarten.   Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with me!

[ollyoxenfree]

Unless she needs a gifted identification to attend the program/school you prefer, it's usually preferable to wait to test. Results tend to be more reliable in older children. Many districts test around age 8 or so. However, there are some districts with gifted classes starting in kindergarten and testing may be required as part of the admission process. 

To choose a specific kindergarten, visit as many different schools as you can and talk to lots of people. Many schools offer tours and open houses, but if there's also an opportunity to observe a class or for your dd to spend some time visiting a class, that's even better. This time of year, there are often school events - end-of-year concerts and sport days and so on that may give you another opportunity to see the school in action.  

[parsley]

Thanks for your reply, ollyoxenfree!

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 
To choose a specific kindergarten, visit as many different schools as you can and talk to lots of people. Many schools offer tours and open houses, but if there's also an opportunity to observe a class or for your dd to spend some time visiting a class, that's even better. This time of year, there are often school events - end-of-year concerts and sport days and so on that may give you another opportunity to see the school in action.  

I think this is good advice.  I do plan to visit as many schools as possible and will *now* ask to observe some kindergarten classes!  (Never occured to me before!)  .

My concern though is how much can I or should I weigh future needs into the picture when prioritizing our school preferences.  It will be really hard to switch to another school when she's older (before jr. high that is) and the different schools handle gifted & talented very differently.  One on our list has it in the school... most others have kids bussed to a gifted and talented center one day a week.  Seems like every school in the school district starts G&T programs at 1st grade. 

[whatsnextmom]

My advice is to look for the schools that can offer the most flexibility. You want a school who really looks at the individual needs of a child and is open-minded in their approach. Sometimes schools with highly developed gifted programs lack flexibility. They just routinely shuttle gifted kids into whatever program is in place and assume that is enough. The good schools say, well, this program may work OR we can try this, maybe that, maybe a little of both. Choose for personality of child but also consider whole family health... how will you handle transportation, are the school hours compatible with the family schedule, ect.

As for testing, since your school choices are all lottery, I wouldn't even bother. Testing privately is expensive and some schools will only accept their OWN tests. Testing is unreliable at this age and you'll get a better picture in a few years. Doesn't sound like there are any issues. No, test when there is a reason to test... a specific program to get into, certain accommodation or a concern for which testing can give you answers.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by parsley 

  It will be really hard to switch to another school when she's older (before jr. high that is) and the different schools handle gifted & talented very differently.  One on our list has it in the school... most others have kids bussed to a gifted and talented center one day a week.  

I would start with seeking out the most nurturing, engaging, supportive learning environment, whether it's labelled "gifted" or not. The fact that you can't easily switch between schools makes the choice tougher. It's often individual teachers that make the real difference at that age, rather than the program. Generally, though, I'd ask about the administration's attitudes towards curriculum accommodations like providing advanced work, independent projects, subject acceleration (joining a higher grade to study math or language arts or science for part of the day) and judge how flexible they seem.   

Personally, I lean toward full-time gifted programs because I think they tend to integrate a more holistic approach for advanced students. The teachers tend to be more experienced with the diversity of learning needs of gifted students and offer a variety of accommodations.  

Some questions I'd ask about pull-out programs 

- what kind of activities are offered to the students? Are they truly worth the disruption of leaving the regular class, the extra time busing, the inconvenience of managing parent-teacher communication between 2 different programs etc. 

- what are the expectations about missed work from the home classroom? Is the pull-out work in addition to the regular homework? If it is, then it's more like punishment for being smart - and makes the value of the experience questionable. 

- if the home classroom is having a special event - visiting author or scientist, class party or field trip etc. - can the student miss the pull-out program for that day? If they can't, then again, the pull-out may feel like a punishment. 

- the location of the pull-out program - some districts like to do a little social engineering by placing highly-sought-after programs like gifted classes in schools in problematic neighbourhoods with declining enrolment. That may or may not be a concern to you. 

Hope some of that is helpful as you explore your options. 

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by parsley 

 We're assuming she's gifted based on 1) the fact that DH and I were both in the gifted programs throughout our schooling, scored at the top on testing, etc... and we're both now highly educated; Highly indicative of possible giftedness, but depending on the GT programs that were available now and then may differ: GT programming (and qualifying criteria) vary so widely 2) her pediatrician (who's exceptionally laid-back) routinely uses the phrases "exceptional," "advanced," and "precocious" about her verbal and cognitive abilities; Good indicator, 3) her preschool observation reports typically highlight that she's "the only one in the class who can..." with regard to her concentration, level of complication in games, math skills or verbal skills.  And, this is a class full of dr. and prof.'s children;  I have to add as a Preschool teacher, this is VERY unprofessional. Usually in a preschool format they state the child is exceptionally advanced in _______, at _____developmental age (5,6,et) and at the chronological age of _______,  or meets/exceeds expectations for ____age. Preschool development is so varied that in written reports or developmental checklist often have a range with an area for text. Text should be individualized for the student and the student growth- sometimes in relation to national developmental standards, not compared to classmates in a cohort 4) when I look at basic checklists she's typically 2-4 years ahead on everything cognitive, creative or verbal (age typical for physical and social). Good indicator and 5) a good friend who teaches 5th grade consistently points out that the types of things my daughter comprehends and follows are more complicated than many of her 5th graders (novels that we read at night for example). That is surprising in that in a 5th grade class, there is bound to be a  few GT kiddos. Plus, developmentally- not cognitively- many 5th grade topics are simply a matter of exposure and experience. A 5 yr old reading a 5th grade level may not truly be able to comprehend complex social issues, friendships, death, warfare, government systems, extrapolating science and math concepts at the same level as a 11/12 year old etc. simply from lack of worldview- not intelligence. 

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

Unless she needs a gifted identification to attend the program/school you prefer, it's usually preferable to wait to test. Results tend to be more reliable in older children. Many districts test around age 8 or so. However, there are some districts with gifted classes starting in kindergarten and testing may be required as part of the admission process. 

To choose a specific kindergarten, visit as many different schools as you can and talk to lots of people. Many schools offer tours and open houses, but if there's also an opportunity to observe a class or for your dd to spend some time visiting a class, that's even better. This time of year, there are often school events - end-of-year concerts and sport days and so on that may give you another opportunity to see the school in action.  

Great advice!

I would not test unless it is required. Some of our local private (since public do not have GT testing) test at age 4 for Early Elem. and Preschool---but then retest for the programs that start at 2nd grade due to test scores being more accurate at that age. Most if not all must be certain tests or by the institution- so even if you pay for testing, you may need to retest again at some point.

VISIT K programs!! It makes a big difference. Also as you visist recall the time of year- a Fall K class will look very different than the same class come spring. Keep that in mind when  you visit and have expectations for Fall 2013.

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

My advice is to look for the schools that can offer the most flexibility. You want a school who really looks at the individual needs of a child and is open-minded in their approach. Sometimes schools with highly developed gifted programs lack flexibility. They just routinely shuttle gifted kids into whatever program is in place and assume that is enough. The good schools say, well, this program may work OR we can try this, maybe that, maybe a little of both. Choose for personality of child but also consider whole family health... how will you handle transportation, are the school hours compatible with the family schedule, ect.

Yes, this. Flexibility is key. Our public school has been great so far, but my DDs just finished 1st grade. They (mostly) have a curriculum that is (somewhat) adapted to skill. We have been pretty happy with this. Plus having local kids in school was important since we were new to the area and wanted to connect with other local families. The time also worked (early morning start).

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I would start with seeking out the most nurturing, engaging, supportive learning environment, whether it's labelled "gifted" or not. The fact that you can't easily switch between schools makes the choice tougher. It's often individual teachers that make the real difference at that age, rather than the program. Generally, though, I'd ask about the administration's attitudes towards curriculum accommodations like providing advanced work, independent projects, subject acceleration (joining a higher grade to study math or language arts or science for part of the day) and judge how flexible they seem.   

Good Luck! It is hard- especially when you have a lot of options. A lot can change over the next year as well.... Hopefully, you will find something that works well for your DD and your family!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by parsley 

 the different schools handle gifted & talented very differently.  One on our list has it in the school... most others have kids bussed to a gifted and talented center one day a week.  Seems like every school in the school district starts G&T programs at 1st grade. 

What do you know about what the G&T programs actually DO? Your comment seems to be about where they are located, which is not a reason to pick or avoid a program.

When my DD was in public school, G&T was a pullout program in her school that was unit based and integrated multiple subjects. They did very cool things. However, her whole package of accommodation included different instruction for reading and math. They clustered the G&T kids in one classroom and the teacher did groups. It worked really well.

One of my friends DD attended a school with a fulltime G&T program, but what they did was the standard curriculum for the next grade up. I was not impressed -- although the program sounded better (being fulltime and all) in reality, it wasn't as interesting. The curriculum and even the pace it was delivered did not consider the abilities or learning styles of the students. It was basically just a grade skip but with age  mates.

Now my kids attend a project-based, private alternative school and it is just freakin awesome. The school easily accommodates different learning abilities and every child can find something that challenges them. And it's nice a balance with an outdoor center (goats, chickens, greeenhouse, etc), art education, etc.

[parsley]

Thanks everyone for the good advice.  I was in a fit of kindergarten anxiety and you all have helped me see the big picture.  I totally appreciate it.  I don't really know why I asked about testing... I never thought about it before yesterday (though that's what an anxiety fit can do, I suppose :) ).  I guess I also got worried that maybe I needed to more concretely predict the future for my DD before making a Kindergarten choice.  But, your collective point that it's too early to be reliable makes a lot of sense.  My DD can be very moody and sometimes doesn't want to cooperate especially when she sees herself being forced to do something or bossed... testing could be a failure if I introduced it the wrong way, wrong day, wrong hour, etc...  I vaguely remember my own IQ testing in second grade... my memory is that I was with the school psychologist for hours in a small room without windows doing puzzles and answering questions.  No way can my DD stand that! 

And, thanks too for the very concrete suggestions for what to look for in a school. 

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

My advice is to look for the schools that can offer the most flexibility. You want a school who really looks at the individual needs of a child and is open-minded in their approach. Sometimes schools with highly developed gifted programs lack flexibility. They just routinely shuttle gifted kids into whatever program is in place and assume that is enough. The good schools say, well, this program may work OR we can try this, maybe that, maybe a little of both. Choose for personality of child but also consider whole family health... how will you handle transportation, are the school hours compatible with the family schedule, ect.

I find this especially helpful, thanks whatsnextmom. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

What do you know about what the G&T programs actually DO? Your comment seems to be about where they are located, which is not a reason to pick or avoid a program.

When my DD was in public school, G&T was a pullout program in her school that was unit based and integrated multiple subjects. They did very cool things. However, her whole package of accommodation included different instruction for reading and math. They clustered the G&T kids in one classroom and the teacher did groups. It worked really well.

One of my friends DD attended a school with a fulltime G&T program, but what they did was the standard curriculum for the next grade up. I was not impressed -- although the program sounded better (being fulltime and all) in reality, it wasn't as interesting. The curriculum and even the pace it was delivered did not consider the abilities or learning styles of the students. It was basically just a grade skip but with age  mates.

Now my kids attend a project-based, private alternative school and it is just freakin awesome. The school easily accommodates different learning abilities and every child can find something that challenges them. And it's nice a balance with an outdoor center (goats, chickens, greeenhouse, etc), art education, etc.

From what I understand the programs at at least two of the schools we'll consider are project based.  I don't know about the two other schools at the top of our list.  Thanks for sharing you experience.  It's useful to think about these variations. 

 

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I would start with seeking out the most nurturing, engaging, supportive learning environment, whether it's labelled "gifted" or not. The fact that you can't easily switch between schools makes the choice tougher. It's often individual teachers that make the real difference at that age, rather than the program. Generally, though, I'd ask about the administration's attitudes towards curriculum accommodations like providing advanced work, independent projects, subject acceleration (joining a higher grade to study math or language arts or science for part of the day) and judge how flexible they seem.   

Personally, I lean toward full-time gifted programs because I think they tend to integrate a more holistic approach for advanced students. The teachers tend to be more experienced with the diversity of learning needs of gifted students and offer a variety of accommodations.  

Some questions I'd ask about pull-out programs 

- what kind of activities are offered to the students? Are they truly worth the disruption of leaving the regular class, the extra time busing, the inconvenience of managing parent-teacher communication between 2 different programs etc. 

- what are the expectations about missed work from the home classroom? Is the pull-out work in addition to the regular homework? If it is, then it's more like punishment for being smart - and makes the value of the experience questionable. 

- if the home classroom is having a special event - visiting author or scientist, class party or field trip etc. - can the student miss the pull-out program for that day? If they can't, then again, the pull-out may feel like a punishment. 

- the location of the pull-out program - some districts like to do a little social engineering by placing highly-sought-after programs like gifted classes in schools in problematic neighbourhoods with declining enrolment. That may or may not be a concern to you. 

Hope some of that is helpful as you explore your options. 

Thanks, ollyoxenfree!  I totally appreciate the suggestions.  This is totally the BTDT advice that I wouldn't have thought of!  I'm very turned off from the bussing idea in general.  I would have hated that as a kid... I was pretty adverse to change and would have hated the irregularity of my schedule.  I suspect DD would feel similarly.  Your questions raise some other really big things to question about that approach. 

Anyone familiar with any books or resources to help me think this through?  I think my realization at this point is that DD is going to be identified as gifted and that participating in a good gifted program will help her academically but also socially as it will allow her to connect with peers who are also more sophisticated in their thinking (making play easier for her- which is a current struggle).  But, the type of gifted program we use should be more than just an accelerated curicculuum and that I maybe shouldn't reject a completely immersive program off-hand because of my own concerns about tracking, segregation, etc... it may be much better for my DD for both academic AND social reasons.  I am so grateful to be able to feel clear on what we want/need.  Thank you!

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by parsley 

Anyone familiar with any books or resources to help me think this through?  I think my realization at this point is that DD is going to be identified as gifted and that participating in a good gifted program will help her academically but also socially as it will allow her to connect with peers who are also more sophisticated in their thinking (making play easier for her- which is a current struggle).  But, the type of gifted program we use should be more than just an accelerated curicculuum and that I maybe shouldn't reject a completely immersive program off-hand because of my own concerns about tracking, segregation, etc... it may be much better for my DD for both academic AND social reasons.  I am so grateful to be able to feel clear on what we want/need.  Thank you!

A very useful resource is the Hoagie's Gifted site. It offers a lot of useful information and links and also provides a very long book list. 

Another is the Davidson site. 

I'm not entirely sure what your concerns are about an immersive program, and they may be based on the type of program and the attitudes in your area. I know that in the city we live in now, there's a fair amount of rumbling about "elitism" regarding full-time gifted programs.  I find it a little amusing, since the gifted program has students from every area and income level.  The students are far more diverse, in terms of socio-economic status and ethnicity, than many "regular program" schools located in the very wealthy and very poor neighbourhoods in this city. Segregation is a bigger issue in those schools and a much tougher problem to solve than in the gifted program, short of old-fashioned busing. The full-time program also serves students with dual exceptionalities (gifted and learning disabled, including autism spectrum), so there is also a wide range of learning needs and styles. 

I understand your thoughts about connecting with a peer group. That was definitely one of the significant benefits for my children when they attended a gifted program. There is a lot of motivation and inspiration and peer-group learning between students. You may find the pull-out program also serves this purpose, so I wouldn't rule it out until you've had a chance to observe them all. 

[ollyoxenfree]

I had another thought about resources. If there are that many gifted programs in your area, it's likely that there are some local groups for parents of gifted children. They may offer workshops and lectures to parents, be involved in advocacy or act in an advisory capacity to the school board, as well as providing social opportunities for parents and students to meet each other. Like any parent group, you have to be careful about the over-enthusiastic and the hyper-competitive, but you can find some good information and insight from other parents. 

[parsley]

Thanks so much for the resources and suggestions, Ollyoxenfree!  I'm looking forward to checking them out.  Thanks too for your perspective about immersive programs--I was overgeneralizing from one experience and appreciate hearing your thoughtful viewpoint.