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Formal Debate Thread: Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children. - Page 6  

post #101 of 126

I like what Dr. Sears has to say:

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/there-link-between-vaccines-and-autism

 

I know some people are concerned about conflict of interest (he makes money from a book) but he strikes a fairly moderate balance to me.  He is neither hard line pro-vaccine (every child, all shots, on time) nor a non-vaxxer.  He favours a delayed schedule.

 

His thoughts on autism:

 

Honestly, I've read ALL [doubt that, but I do bet he has read a lot]  the research, and both sides present good data and good arguments. I'm not sure who is right at this point. Until I see enough evidence that shows vaccines are linked to autism, I certainly am not going to tell anyone that vaccines contribute to autism. But at the same time I can't say for sure that vaccines absolutely do NOT play any role at all in contributing to autism.


Edited by purslaine - 6/28/12 at 8:26pm
post #102 of 126

I used to believe with all my heart that vaccines caused autism.  I was SURE of it.  When my oldest was born we made sure he remained vaccine free.  Not one single vaccine.  And you know what?  He has autism.  

post #103 of 126
I'm not sure a lot of things dont play a role. That's going to be true until we know exactly the whys and what does of autism. Dr bobs pandering does nothing to further our knowledge of whether autism is more common in vaccinated people.
post #104 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigellas View Post

I used to believe with all my heart that vaccines caused autism.  I was SURE of it.  When my oldest was born we made sure he remained vaccine free.  Not one single vaccine.  And you know what?  He has autism.  

Does he also have the physiological problems that appear to be co-morbid with Autism, or does he just have the behavioral issues that are listed in the DSM-IV?

post #105 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigellas View Post

I used to believe with all my heart that vaccines caused autism.  I was SURE of it.  When my oldest was born we made sure he remained vaccine free.  Not one single vaccine.  And you know what?  He has autism.  

So vaccines did not cause YOUR child's autism.  That doesn't mean that they didn't cause other cases.  And that doesn't mean that heavy metal poisoning didn't play a role in your son's autism, just because he didn't get vaccinated.  You may have had mercury amalgams, flu shots or other shots, or eaten a lot of tuna fish while pregnant.  Your child may even have been vaxed in the hospital at birth without your knowledge or permission (which happened to one of my babies).  Your child's room may have been painted with mercury-containing water-based latex paint.

 

Again, I am not saying that vaccines cause all cases of autism, nor that all cases of autism are caused by mercury poisoning.

 

Check this out:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001566.htm

post #106 of 126

I haven't had time to read all the pages yet, so I apologize if this study has been brought to the attention of the group. It was done in 2005 jointly between  the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center in Yokohama, Japan and the Institute of Psychiatry, in London.

 

Apparently, Japan halted its vaccine program completely in 1993. The scientists were able to study populations of children who have had vaccines, and then populations of children where no vaccines were administered. They found that the autism rate went up anyway, even with no children being vaccinated. So it can't be the vaccines, can it? It has to be something else.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

post #107 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigellas View Post

I used to believe with all my heart that vaccines caused autism.  I was SURE of it.  When my oldest was born we made sure he remained vaccine free.  Not one single vaccine.  And you know what?  He has autism.  

 

I hope your son is doing well.  smile.gif

 

My youngest nephew did not have autism from birth (there are videos that clearly show this, moreover, he was watched fairly closely as his big brother did have classical autism - had it since birth).  At 2.5 he got a nasty virus - his almost overnight regression and fall into autism happened during the virus.  Everyone in my family believes the virus triggered the autism.

 

As such, I do believe there can be triggers for autism - although (obviously) your son either had autism from birth or had something else trigger it.


Edited by purslaine - 6/28/12 at 9:04pm
post #108 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post

 

Apparently, Japan halted its vaccine program completely in 1993. The scientists were able to study populations of children who have had vaccines, and then populations of children where no vaccines were administered. They found that the autism rate went up anyway, even with no children being vaccinated. So it can't be the vaccines, can it? It has to be something else.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

I found the whole study here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x/full

 

It looks like the only thing they stopped was MMR, moreover they still offered M M and R - just separately (monovalent).  They did not completely stop their vaccine program.   

 

"Subsequently, only monovalent vaccines were administered. Following a reform of the Immunization Law in 1994…the measles vaccine was recommended between 12 and 24 months of age and the rubella vaccine between 12 and 36 months). The mumps vaccination was voluntary and aimed at children one year of age or older…. It was also stipulated that an interval of at least four weeks separate administration of vaccinations."

post #109 of 126

I am feeling that this debate is done.

 

The debate point is that vaccinated children have more autism than unvaccinated children.

 

I would argue that statement is correct.

 

If we start with the idea that autism is found equally in both vaccinated and unvaccinated, then add in that:

 

-children of those with pink disease are more likely to get autism if exposed to mercury (and there is still mercury in some flu shots for pregnant women)

 

-this link: http://www.ewg.org/reports/autism further discussing the role of mercury  and autism

 

-hep B in the first month of birth for male newborns is associated with an increased risk of autism 

 

- whatever the reason (and it may be largely genetic) the amish do have lower numbers of autism (1/271 based on door-to-door screening of the population)- and they do vaccinate less (far less) than the norm, although the exact profile of their vaccination status is hard to tease out. 

 

(all points have links upthread)

 

Ignoring the strong anecdotal evidence that many parents believe and have witnessed a fall into autism after a vaccine, the studies do seem to support that vaccines may contribute to autism in a small subset of individuals.  Small is not none - therefore vaccinated individuals are more likely to have autism that non-vaccinated individuals.

post #110 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I'm not sure a lot of things dont play a role. That's going to be true until we know exactly the whys and what does of autism. Dr bobs pandering does nothing to further our knowledge of whether autism is more common in vaccinated people.

This type of language is no acceptable.  YOu don't have to accept Dr. Sears (Dr. Bob is a different person entirely) arguments, but calling it pandering or misaddressing him is not kosher. 

post #111 of 126
The dr sears who wrote the vaccine book, speaks at anti vaccine conferences, etc is dr bob.
post #112 of 126
I'm not sure what you mean by misaddressing him. He calls himself dr Bob and encourages people to call him that.
post #113 of 126
Thread Starter 

Thank you for clarifying who you were referring to.  Dr Sears, the senior and Dr. Bob are two different folks and I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same person.

post #114 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I am feeling that this debate is done.

 

The debate point is that vaccinated children have more autism than unvaccinated children.

 

I would argue that statement is correct.

 

 

I've come to completely the opposite conclusion. Two independent reviews of the literature have decided there's no link between vaccines and autism, and we have looked at statistics of other countries and state by state in the US and also seen no link. 

 

I would agree the debate is done. We don't seem to be listening to each other if we can come to completely the opposite conclusions though.

post #115 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

I've come to completely the opposite conclusion. Two independent reviews of the literature have decided there's no link between vaccines and autism, and we have looked at statistics of other countries and state by state in the US and also seen no link. 

 

I would agree the debate is done. We don't seem to be listening to each other if we can come to completely the opposite conclusions though.

To which independent reviews of the literature are you referring?  And why do you ignore the independent reviews of the literature which DID find a vaccine-autism link?


 Your statistics for other countries and for state-by-state were not set up to find any possible vaccine-autism link.  I could look at statistics comparing other countries and state-by-state for lung cancer, and I'd find plenty of heavy smokers with no sign of lung cancer and non-smokers who do get lung cancer.  That doesn't prove that there's no link between tobacco and lung cancer.

 

If you deliberately set up a study or a review to not find a link, you probably won't find one.

post #116 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

 

 

I would agree the debate is done. We don't seem to be listening to each other if we can come to completely the opposite conclusions though.

I think we knew going in that not everyone was going to come to the same conclusion.  There are a lot of reasons for this - but a lot of it comes down to differing but strongly held foundational beliefs.  

 

People can listen to each other and still come to different conclusions.

 

We put up some links and arguments for the undecided, though, which is a good thing.

 

Have a good evening,

 

Kathy

post #117 of 126
If you did a region by region comparison I feel certain areas with higher rates of smoking would have higher rates of lung cancer.
post #118 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

If you did a region by region comparison I feel certain areas with higher rates of smoking would have higher rates of lung cancer.

That may be how you feel, but how you feel is not a valid argument in a debate.

post #119 of 126
You're right. I haven't actually done that analysis. Have you?
post #120 of 126
I know we're mostly done here, but I came across some of these today and the threads not locked yet, soooo . . . .

Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and links with immunizations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16818529

Examined birth cohorts in Canada from 1987 to 1998 and looked for trends in pervasive developmental disorders and a relationship with exposure to thimerosal and mmr. Thimerosal exposure ranged from none to medium (around 100 mcg) to high (around 200 mcg). The prevalence of pdd was significantly higher in the thimerosal free group than the thimerosal exposed group. Rates of pdd were also found to significantly increase when rates of mmr decreased.



Association between thimerosal-containing vaccine and autism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14519711

Compared birth cohorts born in Denmark between 1990 and 1996. Compared children given a thimerosal containing vaccine to children vaccinated with a thimerosal free version of the same vaccine. Risk of autism did not vary significantly between the groups.
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Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Formal Debate Thread: Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children.