Formal Debate Thread: Vaccinated children are more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children. - Page 4

[pek64]

Also, I just followed Peggy's link, and the article refers to the "largely unvaccinated Amish", so his article has not been proven wrong.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

The majority of pregnant women and six month olds do not get a thimerosal flu shot. 

Link - and not a link showing thim free shots exist - but the percentage of pregnant women who get thim free shots.  

To the best of my knowledge, we do not know how many pregnant women get thim free flu shots.

[Rrrrrachel]

I dont have a statistic and we've been you about this before, but the tf shot is targeted for pregnant women and children. They're the reason it exists. I feel it's valid I say it's what the majority of them get. At least as valid as claiming they all get the thimerosal version like pp.

[Rrrrrachel]

From olmsteds original article: "So I turned to the 22,000 Amish in Lancaster County, Pa. I didn't expect to find many, if any, vaccinated Amish: they have a religious exemption from the otherwise mandatory U.S. vaccination schedule. When German measles broke out among Amish in Pennsylvania in 1991, the CDC reported that just one of 51 pregnant women they studied had ever been vaccinated against it."

False, the Amish do not have a religious exemption from vaccination, because they have no religious prohibition against vaccination.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by pek64 

And either way, no numbers of children were provided, so no conclusions can be made about the percent of the children who were vaccinated.

I have the full text article with actual numbers. What exactly do you want to know?

[Rrrrrachel]

Re the generation rescue data, they seemed to have scrubbed it from their site, but here it is courtesy of the way back machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20070822144652/http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/survey.pdf

Before you start criticizing sample size, etc etc, remember I'm not the one that brought it up. I actually think this data is fairly worthless because of how it was gathered, but since someone brought it up I thought I would point out that it doesn't actually say what you think it says.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

I dont have a statistic and we've been you about this before, but the tf shot is targeted for pregnant women and children. They're the reason it exists. I feel it's valid I say it's what the majority of them get. At least as valid as claiming they all get the thimerosal version like pp.

It is not valid to say the majority get thim free shots.  You have no link or statistics to back it up.  You just have suppositions. 

I will move on, though.  We have been through this before. 

edited to add:  I found this article,  http://articles.latimes.com/2004/apr/02/business/fi-vaccine2  which is a little old (2004) but it said thim free shots are more expensive and more difficult to make in large quantities.  Given this, I suspect most pregnant women do not get thim free shots unless they ask.  Moreover - not everyone lives in the USA.  In Canada, there are only 2 thim free shots available for use, and both have to be paid for privately. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php

Edited by purslaine - 6/27/12 at 11:34am

[AdinaL]

This is a very interesting conversation.  

Please remember though we are looking for verifiable research, stats, info, etc.  Not just gut feelings and opinions.  So you have an opinion, start digging, research it - find something to back it up.  Exercise that mad Google-fu I know you all have. :)

[AdinaL]

Jennifer Z - The last paragraph of your post violates the rules set forth in the OP of this thread.  Calling people "curebies" and  calling people "uneducated minions" is name calling and against not only the rules of the debate thread, but also against the User Agreement.  As such you will be removed from this thread until its conclusion. Additionally your post and those quoting it will be removed.

A Reminder: Please do not report posts in this thread.  Please PM me directly with a link.  These are my pet projects, not something the forum mod is handling.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

Jennifer Z - The last paragraph of your post violates the rules set forth in the OP of this thread.  Calling people "curebies" and  calling people "uneducated minions" is name calling and against not only the rules of the debate thread, but also against the User Agreement.  As such you will be removed from this thread until its conclusion. Additionally your post and those quoting it will be removed.

A Reminder: Please do not report posts in this thread.  Please PM me directly with a link.  These are my pet projects, not something the forum mod is handling.

 Now I will have to rewrite my post, it took me hours to write because I was constantly uninterrupted. I didn't even quote the last para. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by pek64 

A look at those disputed numbers.
68%+17%+14% is only 99%, so 1% is unaccounted.
37% responded, so if there were 100 families, 37 are represented in the survey/study.
68% of those responding hadgiven all their children at least one vaccination.
That means 25 families of the total of 100 gave all their children at least one vaccination. It says nothing about the total number of children.
17% of those responding had given some of their children at least one vaccination.
That 11 familes gave some children at least one. No idea how many children.
14% of those responding had given their children no vaccinations.
That's 9.5 families. Again, no numbers of children.
All in all, there is no data to support either claim, since no numbers of children were provided, in my opinion.

It is also uncleear whether there is any overlap between the 68% (who gave all children at least one vaccine), the 17% (who gave some of children at least one vaccine), and/or the 11 families (who gave some children at least one vaccine).

If it was possible to check more than one box in the survey, some respondents may have done so, while others may have left all the vaccine questions blank.

I'd like to see all the details.

But either way, it is incorrect to conclude from such ridiculously incomplete data that "the Amish vaccinate," and compare those results with the results of a population that receives up to 35 times (or more) the only concrete number ("at least one") mentioned in this survey.

[pek64]

I would like to see data that references the numbers of children. I am unwilling to assume a number of children per family, so data referencing nimbers or percents of families is unacceptable to me.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

From olmsteds original article: "So I turned to the 22,000 Amish in Lancaster County, Pa. I didn't expect to find many, if any, vaccinated Amish: they have a religious exemption from the otherwise mandatory U.S. vaccination schedule. When German measles broke out among Amish in Pennsylvania in 1991, the CDC reported that just one of 51 pregnant women they studied had ever been vaccinated against it."
False, the Amish do not have a religious exemption from vaccination, because they have no religious prohibition against vaccination.

From http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-vaccinate-their-children/

Religious objections

Finally, some Amish may object to vaccinations on religious grounds, though Huntington states that this is a less likely objection than concerns over safety.  She notes that Amish who acquire religious exemptions for vaccinations may cite Romans 12:2, “Be not conformed to this world”, as one justification for abstaining.  Amish may argue that putting faith in immunizations is like placing faith in man above God, and that vaccination is akin to participating in insurance programs, which Amish typically oppose (“Health Issues”, Huntington, p 186).

[purslaine]

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Vaccine%20and%20Autism%20correlation%20US%202011%20J%20Tox%20Env%20Health.pdf

Abstract:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15287394.2011.573736?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed

The conclusion of the study:

Evidence presented in this paper suggests a possible link between susceptible children receiving a battery of vaccinations and devel- oping autism or speech disorders.

[Taximom5]

Also from http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-vaccinate-their-children/

Hurst and McConnell state that immunization can be especially low among conservative groups, with only 6% of Swartentruber Amish participating, compared to 63% of the overall Amish population and 85% of the non-Amish population, according to a 1984 study (Paradox, Hurst/McConnell). (An Amish Paradox: Diversity and Change in the World’s Largest Amish Community, Charles E. Hurst and David L. McConnell)  That's from 18 years ago.

In searching for more information, I found the Wikipedia site, which says that there are at least 8 subgroups of Amish, with varying levels of conservativism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgroups_of_Amish

So it seems to me that both sides of the vaccine issue are incorrect to be saying "The Amish" either do or don't vaccinate. Apparently, it depends  a great deal on which subgroup you look at.

It would be very interesting to see if autism is more prevalent in Amish subgroups who vaccinate more.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Vaccine%20and%20Autism%20correlation%20US%202011%20J%20Tox%20Env%20Health.pdf

The conclusion of the study:

Evidence presented in this paper suggests a possible link between susceptible children receiving a battery of vaccinations and devel- oping autism or speech disorders.

I just wanted to add the title and author of the study:

A POSITIVE ASSOCIATION FOUND BETWEEN AUTISM PREVALENCE AND CHILDHOOD VACCINATION UPTAKE ACROSS THE U.S. POPULATION

Gayle DeLong

Department of Economics and Finance, Baruch College/City University of New York, New York, New York, USA

[Mirzam]

Vaccines cause physiological changes in children which can result in behavioral problems which get labeled Autism. Vaccinations cause encephalitis which causes seizures. Vaccines cause immune system deficiencies and gastrointestinal problems. Encephalitis causes mood swings, extreme pain, inattention and impulsivity, aggression, balance problems and spacial issues. Seizures cause mood swings, inattention and impulsivity, and alterations in consciousness. Vaccines cause immune system deficiencies which cause bacterial infections, like UTIs, ear infections, strep, URIs. Immune deficiencies cause frequent "viral" inflammations like stomatitis, unexplained fevers, "viral" rashes, gastrointestinal viruses which are in reality the body's innate drive to heal. Vaccines cause gastrointestinal damage which causes diarrhea, nausea, reflux, vomiting and GERD. The prescribing of antibiotics for all these infections will then lead to pathogenic yeast overgrowth, which leads to constipation, food allergies, skin issues and food cravings. It adds up to a child with chronic illness, no wonder they behave the way they do to get diagnosed as "Autistic". No, vaccinated children are not more likely to have autism than unvaccinated children, because "Autism" is a mental condition, take away these children's pain, immune deficiency, gastrointestinal damage, pathogenic yeast infections and see if they are still "Autistic".

[pek64]

Has there been proven a single individual that has none of the physiological problems listed above, and diagnosed with autism?
That seems like a remark or opinion to me, not a proven fact.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Has there been proven a single individual that has none of the physiological problems listed above, and diagnosed with autism?
That seems like a remark or opinion to me, not a proven fact.

Autism is a mental disorder it is strictly diagnosed by behaviors, there is no blood test for it, no lab test to confirm or deny it. Here are the diagnostic criteria from the DMS - IV, none of them are medical conditions, for example:

• marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.

• lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to development level

• sterotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements

Vaccine injured children labeled Autistic have a multitude of physiological problems none of which will give them an Autism diagnosis, only their behaviors (a result of the symptoms?) will.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Autism is a mental disorder it is strictly diagnosed by behaviors, there is no blood test for it, no lab test to confirm or deny it. Here are the diagnostic criteria from the DMS - IV, none of them are medical conditions, for example:

• marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.

• lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to development level

• sterotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements

Vaccine injured children labeled Autistic have a multitude of physiological problems none of which will give them an Autism diagnosis, only their behaviors (a result of the symptoms?) will.

Huh.  I am seeking clarity here.  You lost me at the last sentence.

Do you think vaccines can spur on autism - or do you think vaccine injury mimics autism?

I agree with the rest of your post, and I agree that autism is diagnosed through behaviours.  There is no blood test for it. 

There are physical issues of those with autism.  Here is a list:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5406427_physical-symptoms-autism.html