Why are American kids so spoiled? Help me understand this article.

[CI Mama]

Read the article first: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert

Then tell me what to make of it. This is pushing all my parental insecurity buttons.

[AdinaL]

I'm seeing a couple things here....because it dings my parental insecurities too. LOL

1. Our level of expectation of kids in the industrialized world is weird.  We expect them both to behave like adults (asking a 5 year old to go take a bath without accompaniment? Yeah, not really gonna happen), and to behave like children.  So our expectations are unrealistic on both sides, I feel. 

2. standard of living is vastly different.  we have very little that *has* to be done to survive, and what we do have to do certainly doesn't entail fishing and gathering of leaves to build our homes. I think we have been accustomed to that - seeing a 6 year old do that kind of work would inevitable garner cries of "but she's so young!  I'm so glad we live here when our children don't have to do that!" 

There's a whole theory I have about the baby boomers parents and how they made a decision to change things, and from there we've been moving toward and extended childhood/adolescence. Not to say that is necessarily bad, but that is has changed how a child is relevant in today's society.

I think there is also the pace of our life to consider - the author touches on this briefly. We need things to happen on a certain schedule, in a certain time frame, not at the kid's realistic pace.  I remember being given chores as a kid, and still working on them hours later - especially when I was staying with my grandparents.  The thing had to get done, but they were happy to let me finish it and learn, no matter how long it took.  I find myself unwilling a lot of the time to let my daughter do that because we have to be someplace, or do something, or i need to be in the kitchen making dinner...etc  So I just do it. 

So, this girl may have been sweeping or catching fish without the pressure of having to get it done in a certain time frame, just by imitating her parents, and they allowed her that time - and then she knew it had to be done, and was proficient at it.  There are a couple of things that my daughter does like that - setting the table, sweeping the kitchen.  Etc.  But she always does them better when I just let her do them, but don't impose a time limit.

I don't think that means the kids are spoiled rotten - but a product of the society/environment we live in, much as the tribal family was of theirs.  

[Luckiestgirl]

I think the article is very flawed, and that she fishes around for anything she can use to make her argument.  Case in point is the shoe tying thing.  Kids can't/won't tie their shoes like they used to because velcro and slip-on shoes are now the norm. 

U.S. kids ARE generally more materially privileged today than in the past.  So are adults.  The adults who make the biggest deal about saying 'no' to children are often the ones who don't say 'no' to themselves.

Parenting does not exist, as the author implies, on a single spectrum ranging from "permissive" to "authoritarian."  Attachment parenting (or consensual living, or radical unschooling, to name a few related philosophies) is neither permissive nor authoritarian.  It's a different model altogether. Those who practice these philosophies seem to end up with teenagers less likely to do the whole prolonged adolescent thing.

Also, attachment parenting is not helicopter parenting.  I would never have let my baby cry for five minutes like the French woman mentioned in the article, but I used to let my two-year-old drink out of an actual drinking glass instead of a sippy cup.  I don't tell my kids no to teach them to handle disappointment, but I have a five-year-old who can make a pot of coffee from start to finish, and who with very little assistance can bake a loaf of homemade bread.

If you're worried about ending up with middle-aged teenagers, promote the kind of autonomy and independence that your children seem interested in.  Let them dress themselves, even if their fashion sense is lacking and people look at you funny.  Teach your eight-year-old to use the gas stove.  Let your four-year-old operate the vacuum cleaner. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Luckiestgirl 

Parenting does not exist, as the author implies, on a single spectrum ranging from "permissive" to "authoritarian." 

Totally agree. I also don't know how any one can define "American" parenting because the range is SO HUGE. I also don't think I know what "mainstream" really is anymore. My kids are teens, and when they were tots I knew was "mainstream" parenting was, but as they've grown and the issues have changed, it's a lot less defined. Some of the people I see parenting their teens in similar ways to us were also AP, but many weren't.

One of the many problems with the article is comparing the way a child acts away from parents with how a child acts at home. Any experienced parent can you that is comparing apples to oranges. My kids go to a school that takes overnight fields trips and has an outdoor skills programs, and according to the staff, my children are amazingly helpful, hardworking, take initiative, and never whine. I don't see any of that at home. They act like I'm asking for a kidney when I request they pick their towel up off the floor.

I was surprised to see an article on this topic that failed to mention The Continuum Concept or families in the US that have tried to implement these principles. For THOUSANDS of families, this idea isn't new, even though it is breaking news to the author. It would be far more interesting to see an article comparing American families to American families, and seeing how kids in the same culture turn out with different parenting choices.

I suspect the degree to which I'm around families that do things a little different shades my opinion. My DH and I value the kids doing real work and our kids attend an alternative school where kids do real work with tools, so we are also around other families with the same values. My 14 year old on went on a program at a university this summer where she stayed in a dorm, went to lectures, ate in the student union, etc. The kids were 14-16 and this was a select program that required a transcript, letter of recommendation, etc. But it was a regular program -- not our sheltered community of like minded parents. And some (not all) of the kids didn't know how to put sheets on their beds. I don't know how normal that is. I'm really curious now how many teens can't really make a bed, or do a load of laundry.  But my kid came home shocked at her peers, and surprised that these kids all had solid PGAs.

For moms of younger kids, my advice would be to read The Continuum Concept and use it as inspiration. Find ways to include your children in the real work that you do. But don't let it drive you crazy, because there is only so much you can do to implement these ideas in our culture.

I found it possible to treat my babies like babies, my children like children, and now in the teen years be all about developing independence and life skills. I think sometimes our culture gets is backwards -- treating children like teens/adults and allowing babyish behavior from teens.

One of the things I think the author gets wrong is the image of the adults in a child's life acting like staff and catering to children's every whims. Although it happens, I suspect in many families, it's a reaction to the amount of time spent away from the child, rather than how the child is being treated 24/7. I've seen the exact behavior from my husband, who travels with his job. When he does get time with the kids, he wants to keep them happy and do things for them. It can't happen all the time because he isn't even here that much, and it's so obviously an attempt to make up for what is missing. I suspect that for parents who are aware of the danger of doing *too much* for child AND have adequate amount of time with their kids, this is pretty easy to avoid.

[podsnap]

Most of the adults I know pay people to clean their houses and help out with their kids and own every gadget that has ever been invented and they're not complaining.

[MamaMunchkin]

This reminds me of this opionion piece - not about spoiled kids, but about the the possibly frenetic pace of parenting life in the US.

The Non-Joie of Parenting, US-style

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/opinion/sunday/the-non-joie-of-parenting-us-style.html

[captain optimism]

I don't think parents in the United States are so terrible. 

I think journalism about parenting in the United States is pretty terrible, though. 

This article is one of several complaining about how our generation is raising kids. I read a similar one in the Atlantic last year. There are frequent examples all over the media. We're too protective! We're helicopters! 

Dang, our children aren't hunter-gathers. We're so terrible, because our children aren't independent like the French. Or the Germans. We're awful because we don't discipline as harshly as (traumatized) new immigrants from China. (The Tiger Mom piece, remember that?) Our kids are slobs! We suck! aAAAAAaaaaa!

It's a load of hooey. 

I'm really sorry that some wealthy American lady's kid who lives in Paris couldn't sit still in a restaurant when the other kids could. Could we please see some journalism about the real problems of children in the United States? We have a shocking number of families who can't feed or house their kids. This is, I think, more newsworthy. 

[parsley]

I was really bothered by the premise of this article.  It starts by setting up one single example of a child's behavior in one setting and then offers some counter examples of other children's behavior in other settings.  The way the paper is set up totally overgeneralizes and selectively identifies its examples.  Do all children in Peru act like that all the time?  No way!  Do all children in Los Angelos act like the other examples all the time?  No way?  Social science requires systematic analysis--- the anthropolgists whose work was presented in the article surely know that they need to contextualize and compare within the case to see what differences emerge.  I'm sure their research papers actually talk about a range of behaviors among different groups of children and look at how cultural factors shape those behaviors-- are the girls more likely to obey/help/work, for example.  Not merely select the two most extreme examples and contrast them with one another for shock effect. 

I also think that there's a conflation between having material goods and obeying parents requests (the examples given in the start).  Further, I think there's a big difference between obeying parents requests and generally being a cooperative part of a family.  Do I think Americans are too consumerist and materialistic?  Absolutely... that's the American dream and the birthright of capitalism!  Do I think that American kids are spoiled brats?  Not necessarily.  Having an Ipad does not mean that a kid won't take a bath.  It means a kid has an Ipad.  We can examine the implications of having the Ipad (production issues regarding labor and environmental cost & shipping, increased screen time, increased inequality between kids in schools, etc...) but that doesn't translate to being a disobedient and thoughtless person.

I do think that there are serious problems for many kids in the U.S. today and that some of them stem from materialist/consumerist culture but I don't think that it's doing kids or parents any good to simply label kids spoiled and blame parents for it.  I think if we want to look at the problems here we need to look at capitalism which requires people to work more and more hours for less and less pay to acquire more and more goods.  And, the impact of working more and more on our ideas about leisure time and quality time.   And, the way that we, as a culture, value caring work overall.  

Ugh.  I think I wish I hadn't clicked on that link... 

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

One of the many problems with the article is comparing the way a child acts away from parents with how a child acts at home. Any experienced parent can you that is comparing apples to oranges. My kids go to a school that takes overnight fields trips and has an outdoor skills programs, and according to the staff, my children are amazingly helpful, hardworking, take initiative, and never whine. I don't see any of that at home. They act like I'm asking for a kidney when I request they pick their towel up off the floor.

This is a really good point.

One thing that I see somewhat differently from the author is his or her idea that our kids have more authority over their lives than kids living in tribal cultures. The lifestyle descirbed in The Continuum Concept seems very similar to radical unschooling to me.

[mamazee]

Hmm well we're shown a false dichotomy first of all -mowing the lawn with a machete at 3, or not moving out of your house at 30 - and also I don't think most parents would think their children were better off if they had to work all the time and didn't have time to play and have fun like children in communities where survival requires more physical work and children have to contribute as well. I'm glad my children live somewhere they can have a childhood without that level of responsibility at that age.

I do think there is a parenting trend of feeling like you have to entertain your kids all the time and not wanting your kids to have any obstacles to face, but I think it's a minority of parents who fall as deeply into that trend as the article suggests. And some of the issues might be more about having time than wanting kids to have responsibility. If you want a kid to learn to do something, it will take them much much much longer to do it than it takes you while they are learning, and it will take a while before they can do it quickly. Also, while they're learning, you will have to have them re-do parts of it, and then probably finish up parts they had trouble with. It's a big time commitment. I think a lot of parents just don't have the time to invest. Even shoe tying. It's time to leave the house. Put your shoes on. Wait 10 minutes for the shoes to get properly tied, and leave. There isn't always an extra 10 minutes.

Also, and it's been said before here, older generations have been complaining about the newer generation for EVERY. Ancient Romans did it, we do it, and it'll be done forever in the future. Somehow, every generation manages.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

One of the many problems with the article is comparing the way a child acts away from parents with how a child acts at home. Any experienced parent can you that is comparing apples to oranges. My kids go to a school that takes overnight fields trips and has an outdoor skills programs, and according to the staff, my children are amazingly helpful, hardworking, take initiative, and never whine. I don't see any of that at home. They act like I'm asking for a kidney when I request they pick their towel up off the floor.

This is sooooo true. I've had raves about ds1 constantly since he was in kindergarten. Parent volunteers from Cub Camp have gone out of their way to tell me how great it was to have him in their cabin, because he's so helpful and kind and all the rest. He got a rave review as a counselor at Outdoor School (including showing initiative, stepping up to help out, etc.).  He's been going above and beyond since he started school - helping out with younger kids, pitching in for classroom chores, etc. Around here? "Hey, ds1 - don't forget to take out the recycling." "Whyyyyy?". "Umm...because that's been your chore for five years." "Okaaaayyy - just a second." Repeat. Repeat again. Let's go another round. As far as I can tell, people don't even have to ask him to help in any other location.

His future roommates and/or wife, if any, are going to hate me.

And some (not all) of the kids didn't know how to put sheets on their beds. I don't know how normal that is. I'm really curious now how many teens can't really make a bed, or do a load of laundry.  But my kid came home shocked at her peers, and surprised that these kids all had solid PGAs.

DS1 probably can't make a bed properly, because it's just not something I do. I haven't actually made a bed in at least 20 years. I gave him the basics a long time ago, but I don't follow up on it. He's been doing his own laundry since he was 12, though - and I probably would have started him on it sooner, except that our living situation made it more hassle than it was worth. I've certainly known quite a few teens who haven't done their own laundry, and don't know how to wash dishes, though. (This one is one where I've blown it with ds1. He can, and does, load, run, and unload a dishwasher, but he never does hand dishes.

For moms of younger kids, my advice would be to read The Continuum Concept and use it as inspiration. Find ways to include your children in the real work that you do. But don't let it drive you crazy, because there is only so much you can do to implement these ideas in our culture.

I think the cultural aspect is important, and so is the time thing. I know it's my choice to have quite a lot going on, but we do have it, and it makes it hard to let the kids take the time to complete some chore that I can do in 10 minutes, but will take them an hour or more. (This was a huge issue with ds1. I was swamped when he was a kid, and simply didn't have the time to let him do things himself.)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 
 

DS1 probably can't make a bed properly, because it's just not something I do. I haven't actually made a bed in at least 20 years.

ROFL! I didn't mean live up to my grandmother's standards of housekeeping, but rather, when in a situation with a naked mattress on a frame and a pile of sheets and blankets, be able to work it out so they have a place to sleep without getting help from an adult.

[One_Girl]

I think our parenting is different because we are raising kids to be successful in a different society where striving for possessions is something that drives success. Materialism is an issue for sure but it also motivates many people to work hard in order to possess things and I don't think this is something that has changed much in the last thirty years, the items have changed but our definition of success as possessing certain things hasn't changed.

I am not convinced that a child who wants to have their shoe tied or wants to avoid a shower is something to worry about or feel like a parenting failure about. I am sure there are many successful adults who went through a clingy stage and/or a refusal to bathe age and got over it with no long term damage. The idea that these things point to a parenting problem is hilarious. I agree with the pp who said the problem is with the reporting.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

ROFL! I didn't mean live up to my grandmother's standards of housekeeping, but rather, when in a situation with a naked mattress on a frame and a pile of sheets and blankets, be able to work it out so they have a place to sleep without getting help from an adult.

Oh. Gotcha.

Yeah - ds1 does that. He takes care of all his own laundry. Actually, as part of his chores these days (we had to work something out, as he's still living here free, but is almost never actually home - I refuse to let him use our house as a hotel), he also does the bed linens for all his siblings every week. That means he strips the beds, washes and dries the sheets and pillowcases, and then makes the beds again. We've had some flaws in the process and have had to transfer a load and/or put the sheets back on, a few times, but he generally gets it done. (He even took it upon himself to leave the sheets one week, and do the comforters, as they hadn't been done in a while. I was impressed that he even thought of it.)

I just don't make beds, beyond putting on the bottom sheet, and more-or-less lining up the top sheet. I hate having the top sheet tucked in, anyway.

[CatsCradle]

I subscribe to the New Yorker and also read a lot of on-line chatter about this article.  Like PPs, I think the author's comparison between the Peruvian child (whose particular hunter/gatherer culture was/is spent on community-related efforts) and present, modern-day American parenting was deeply flawed for reasons that others have mentioned.  I probably would have taken it more seriously if it had been a comparison between simliar cultures with similar economic structures.  Even then, there are many variables.  There are stark differences between the way I parent and the way my siblings parent.  I'm not sure if that will produce different results or more or less "spoiled" children or if it even really matters in our modern age.  I know a lot of people and frankly I don't know anyone who is still at home at age 30.  My guess is that if children are moving back to their parents at 30 (or never leave), it has less to do with spoiling and more to do with the economic climate that affects so many people now.  Having massive college debt doesn't help either and much of that, in my opinion, is the result of the skyrocketing cost of college, lack of jobs, stagnant wages, etc.  I'm not sure why the concept of family looking out for each other (when time and finances permit) is so frowned upon here, other than the idea that at some magic age we are supposed to be independent? 

My other gripe is:  how many people are in the U.S. alone?  Some 320 million or more?  She gave a smattering of examples (kid not tying his own shoe) and seems to apply that to the whole. 

I would also like someone to explain to me what "spoiled" means?  There has been a long-standing misunderstanding in our culture, at least, that onsies (only children) are "spoiled" because all resources (mental, emotional and financial) are directed to them.  There's been an idea that some children, by the virtue of the stuff that they have, are spoiled.  It seems that everyone grasps at straws trying to define the spoiled child, but what happens are these massive generalizations.  I always thought that being spoiled was a state of mind.  A state of mind where one is clueless/ungrateful as to his/her good fortune and spends little effort on contributing to the whole.  We could spend all day analyzing whether a kid who doesn't tie his shoes is spoiled or not.  It seems futile to me.  I wish we would spend more time writing articles about how we could instill a sense of community and contribution in our own culture.  I think the greater ill is that we have lost a sense of community.  Maybe it is that individualist streak in American culture that has been our demise.  Sorry, I'm starting to rant but the same people that complain about "spoiled" kids are probably the same people who espouse "Not my problem."  Kettle/pot?  Hello? 

[llwr]

marking for later

[Linda on the move]

So today I was reading an article about the economy in The New Yorker, and it quoted stats about how the number of new households per year has been dropping for the last 4 years, but rather than being seen as a sign of bad parenting, it was seen as an economic indicator. It also has a negative effect on the economy, because when young adults continue to live with parents, they don't buy durable goods like refrigerators and washing machines.

Rather than comparing this to tribal cultures, they compared it to European ones, where living home until older was already the norm before the economic downturn. The author's guess was that we would go back to our American ways as the economy picks up (moving out to live alone and pay rent), rather than growing to be more like the Italians (living with extended family until ready to settle down and start nuclear families).

I seriously doubt that most tribal cultures have an artificial age by which people are expected to just go live alone and get the heck out of their parent's hut.  There may be more pressure to select a mate at a younger age and start having babies, but I doubt most of us consider that a particularly positive thing.

[mammal_mama]

Yes, from what I've read about a few different tribal cultures, it sounds like married couples aren't exactly "on their own," either. It doesn't sound like anyone is really on his or her own.

Also, according to Liedloff's description of the Yequana in TCC, there is absolutely no pressure on children to start contributing to the group. Children are free to play until such time as they get interested in participating in adult economic activity, which usually happens at a fairly young age.

And it sounds like the children's activities have little to no adult direction, which is in stark contrast to American culture where there are so many expectations regarding how children should be spending their time. Many Americans would see it as child abuse or neglect if American children were allowed the freedome to roam and explore that the Yequana children are.

[CI Mama]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I knew I'd hear some wise commentary from the MDC mamas. I was starting to feel like I needed to have my daughter ready for the work force by the age of 7, or she'd be doomed to an adulthood of mooching beer out of my fridge.

I generally like the New Yorker and Elizabeth Kolbert has written some great stuff about the environmental movement. But this piece is a real clunker.

And I totally agree with PPs that it would be nice to have some journalism about parenting that actually covers legitimate issues! I guess that's why I tune in here...

[CI Mama]

One more note...

After reading this article, I did start paying attention to how many things I do for my daughter (who is 3.5) rather than letting her do things for herself. And I realized that there were many instances when I could let her do things on her own. I had my partner read the article, and both of us are trying to give DD more independence. Usually when we just give up and do things for her, it's because of the time crunch (as others have mentioned). So I'm definitely working on becoming more aware of how I can give more space to myself and to her, so that she can be more independent. And that feels like a good thing.

We traveled to a wedding over the weekend and let her pick out 1 toy to take with her (which turned into 3 toys, but OK, they fit in her backpack, so no big deal). And the funny thing was, even those three toys were more than she needed. We didn't even read the books that we packed. I keep cluing in to how little she needs to in order to entertain herself, when we just put her in situations where she has to figure it out.