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would you do MMR?

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
My ped is saying this is one of the vaccines he very much wants us to get (we delayed until two and have done the DTaP) I'm on the fence. His point is that there have been recent outbreaks near by.... help me process this please.
post #2 of 59

Have you seen this?

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1356394/say-it-isnt-so-merck-accused-of-falsifying-mumps-vaccine-efficacy

post #3 of 59

Outbreaks of which disease?

post #4 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post

Outbreaks of which disease?


Mumps and measles. I live in Philly.

post #5 of 59

I think this might be useful: http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella

 

It's a Cochrane summary of the MMR vaccine looking at risks and benefits. Cochrane is an independent body that looks at published studies, critiques and summarizes them and tries to explain is reasonably plain language the best current picture (for a variety of health issues). I'm quite confident they're independent and have the knowledge to understand what the many research studies actually mean. 

 

In that review they give an efficacy for mumps which hasn't passed through Merck. 

 

I haven't heard about Mumps outbreaks, but measles definitely seems to be on the rise, and can be a serious disease. Be clear - the vaccine won't protect your child 100%, but it's better than nothing. 

post #6 of 59

Mealses circ 1961, from the Flintstones "In the Dough" episode. Nothing about measles has changed since then. (Mumps hurt even less.)

 

Flinstone-Double.jpg

(vaxtruth.org/2012/05/re-setting-the-compass/flinstone-double/)

 

 

The Great Measles Misunderstanding

 

 

 

Quote:
Medical texts prior to the advent of the vaccine described measles as a benign, self-limiting childhood infectious disease that posed little risk to the average well-nourished child. All of that changed about 40 years ago when health authorities decreed the need to eradicate the measles, and so began The Great Measles Massacre.
post #7 of 59

I'd be interested to see that cartoon from another source. To me the text looked photoshopped, but that might just be my bias against anti-vax websites. 

post #8 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I'd be interested to see that cartoon from another source. To me the text looked photoshopped, but that might just be my bias against anti-vax websites. 

You will have to watch the episode for yourself.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Flintstones_episodes

 

 

In the Dough" March 17, 1961

Wilma and Betty are finalists in a television bake-off, but on the eve of the event, they contract measles. Donning wigs and dresses, Fred and Barney take their places in the contest, but one of the guys' carelessness could jeopardize the win of the grand prize.

Credited animator: Kenneth Muse 
post #9 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I'd be interested to see that cartoon from another source. To me the text looked photoshopped, but that might just be my bias against anti-vax websites. 

It is a screencap from the TV cartoon, not a printed comic strip, so yes, the audio had to be photoshopped on as text.  It is likely accurate though - sounds like something Barney Rubble would say.   Though considering they had no problems with their kids playing with clubs, riding on dinosaurs, or riding unrestrained in their car, I think their views of safety and risk may be a bit skewed from mine.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

The Great Measles Misunderstanding

 

 

 

 

Benign?  Really?  Tell that to Roald Dahl whose daughter died of it just a year after that Flinstones episode originally aired.  

 

I think we all know that people back in the day generally weren't exactly quaking in their boots at the thought of measles.   Most kids suffered through it and recovered just fine, and there were much bigger things to worry about.  But every year, a few hundred people died of it, and more were left with life long effects such as brain damage, scarring, blindess, deafness, long term health complications, and so forth.  I can understand and accept why some people argue that the risks of the vaccine are greater than the risks of the disease.  The evidence may disagree, but they truly believe this.  But just dismissing a few hundred deaths and all the serious complications as not worth a second thought because most kids made it through just fine and most adults who had it were fortunate enough to be able to remember it as just an uncomfortable part of childhood really gets under my skin every time.  Olivia Dahl and all those other kids mattered, even if their numbers were not huge.

 

Like measles, attempted suicide was also treated as a joke in comics and other media back in the day, such as in this Mickey Mouse Strip that's been going around lately http://theblarg.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mickey_suicide3.jpg  Not very funny by today's standards, is it?

 

I have some other issues with the article you linked to, too.  For instance:

 

 

Quote:
Before widespread vaccination against measles, young babies were not at risk of measles because they acquired immunity through the mother’s blood. Adults were not at risk because most of us gained lifelong immunity as a child. Both these groups are now susceptible to the measles and both have greater risk of severe disease and complications. This is described as an “unintended outcome” of measles vaccination.

 

 

 Note it says "most of us gained lifelong immunity as a child."  Earlier in the article, it said that greater than 90% of kids had measles by age fifteen.  Nearly everyone got measles as a kid, but there were always a few adult cases now and then from those who somehow missed having it.  

 

Likewise, maternal immunity was not always perfect in it's protection, and some infants still managed to get the disease despite their mothers having had it, just as there have always been some cases of kids getting chickenpox during early infancy despite their mothers having had the disease.  For that matter, while aquired immunity from a vaccinated mother might not be as strong or long lasting as from a mother who had a natural infection, it does provide some protection.  This is why the vaccine is not effective if given too young, before maternal antibodies have been cleared from the infant's system.  

 

So both groups have always had some members who were susceptible to the disease, and most adults would know that they were as a result of not having a memory/record of having measles, it is pretty much impossible to tell which infants are.  

 

In 2011, there were 27 cases of measles in infants less than a year old, and 76 were over the age of twenty.  These numbers are much higher than normal, as it was the worst year for measles since 1996 with 222 cases total.  I don't have numbers for infant cases prior to the vaccine, but with hundreds of thousands of cases each year, certainly there would have been more than 27 occurring in infants.  And with population increases since then, if the vaccine had never been introduced, we could expect millions of cases each year, and while the vast, vast majority would have been in kids over the age of 1, there still certainly would be more than 27 infants infected each year.  

 

Conclusion:  greatly reducing risk of measles exposure to infants by means of herd immunity is more effective at protecting them than relying on maternal antibodies.  

 

The article also raises questions about the vaccine immunity for measles wearing off eventually.  This is indeed something that should be watched carefully, but the article paints it as a near certainly.  My last measles booster was over twenty years ago, and there are plenty of people who haven't had one in over forty years.  Many haven't been exposed to the wild virus since then either, since cases have been so low - I'm fairly certain I never have been. Yet the vast majority of people infected in the recent outbreaks have been unvaccinated; this seems to indicate that vaccine immunity is holding up quite well so far!  The article seems to paint it as a certainty that if immunity were to wane eventually, tons of cases among the elderly would be inevitable, completely ignoring the possibility of adding a booster to the adult schedule.  They may not like this possibility, but it is at least worth mentioning!

 

I'm not even going to start on the biomedical stuff.  Yikes.  

post #10 of 59

Pers, I am old enough to have had measles, as were my brother, cousins, and friends, every one had it. Olivia Dahl's death was a rarity in the UK by 1961, and who knows what kind of health problems she had. Was she recently vaccinated (not for measles obviously) and her immune system damaged? I grew up in the UK and no one that I know of, and you can be sure if my mother knew of someone we would have known (huge worrier), died, or even suffered complications for measles. The doctor made a house call, and we got to stay home from school for a week or so, got better. End of story. Measles was never feared, well nourished children for the most sailed through measles and had the benefit of life-long immunity. Revisionist history might say otherwise. I believe I was around 6 when I had measles which was about the average age to contract it then.

 

The Flintstones episode is a reflection of the prevailing thought of the time (as per the CDC), that measles was a benign, self-limiting childhood disease. Of course had that been an episode of a modern day cartoon, the script would be very different.

 

ETA: if measles was thought of as such a "deadly" disease, why would it be featured in a children's cartoon, for heaven sakes? No measles was not scary, and every kid watching that episode back in 1961 would have known that.

post #11 of 59

Mirzam, does that contradict anything I wrote above? I know that people weren't terrified of measles back then, and I don't think anyone should panic when an outbreak happens now.  However, I also know that a few hundred people died each year in the US from measles, and now they don't - isn't that a good thing?  

 

You may not have known anyone to die of it, but In England and Wales, there were 152 deaths in 1961, the year of the Flinstones episode, and 39 in 1962, the year when the Olivia Dahl would have been one of them.  In recent years, there was 1 death in 2006 and another in 2008 (yes, both kids who died had underlying health conditions, but perhaps both would still be alive anyway if not for the decline in MMR rate and resultant increase in measles cases following Wakefield's report?), and that is it for deaths from acute measles since 1992.  http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

 

I have no idea if Olivia Dahl had health problems or not.  All I know is what her father wrote - that she was seven years old, that he wasn't scared, that her measles seemed to be completely normal, and that she seemed to be "well on the road to recovery" until suddenly she wasn't, and that Roald Dalh is a proponent of vaccination as a result of her death from a disease that is now preventable.  Also, she died of measles encephalitis.  As far as I am aware, it is a rare complication and seemingly luck of the draw who ends up with it with no known special risk factors beyond being infected with measles?  But I wouldn't swear to that for certain.    

 

I know that parents generally weren't scared of measles any more than they were scared of taking a Sunday afternoon drive in the country with baby held on Mom's lap.  I also know that some kids did die, and now they don't* (except in very small numbers in places where low vaccination rates have allowed measles outbreaks), and this is a good thing.

 

Look, if you want to argue that the vaccine causes more harm than the disease did, or that the vaccine doesn't work and measles went away for other reasons, or that we're all going to suffer in fifty years when our vaccine immunity wanes, I'll disagree with you, but whatever, I understand your position and accept that if those things were true it would be worth rethinking  vaccination.  But arguing the deaths of those children don't matter because most of the kids who got it were okay and people didn't find measles to be a terrifying disease is despicable.  Those lives did matter.  The people alive today who would have died of measles in the years since the vaccine was introduced, however small that number would be, do matter.  I'm glad we were able to prevent their deaths, whoever they may be.  

 

* I'm talking developed nations here.  Of course measles is still a major killer in poverty stricken areas.  Improving nutrition and health care in those areas would do a lot to improve the survival rate for measles cases there... and vaccination drives can prevent measles cases from ever happening.  

post #12 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post
   

 

Look, if you want to argue that the vaccine causes more harm than the disease did, or that the vaccine doesn't work and measles went away for other reasons, or that we're all going to suffer in fifty years when our vaccine immunity wanes, I'll disagree with you, but whatever, I understand your position and accept that if those things were true it would be worth rethinking  vaccination.  But arguing the deaths of those children don't matter because most of the kids who got it were okay and people didn't find measles to be a terrifying disease is despicable.  Those lives did matter.  The people alive today who would have died of measles in the years since the vaccine was introduced, however small that number would be, do matter.  I'm glad we were able to prevent their deaths, whoever they may be.  

 

 

Whoa, I was arguing nothing of the sort. To put words in my mouth like that is totally unacceptable. Of course many vaxers, argue vaccines for the "greater good", and collateral damage here and there is worth it.

post #13 of 59

Measles Over Diagnosed – Up to 7400%

 Laboratory confirmed cases of measles, mumps, and rubella, England and Wales: October to December 2004

Notified: 474, Tested: 589†, Confirmed cases: 8

RATE OF OVERDIAGNOSIS:- 589/8 = proportionately 7400% or 74 times overdiagnosed

SOURCE: CDR Weekly, Volume 15 Number 12 Published: 24 March 2005

[Note from Source: "†Some oral fluid specimens were submitted early from suspected cases and may not have been subsequently notified, thus the proportion tested is artificially high for this quarter."]

 Total confirmed cases of measles and oral fluid IgM antibody tests in cases notified to ONS*: weeks 40-52/2005

Notified: 408, Tested: 343, Confirmed cases: 22

RATE OF OVERDIAGNOSIS:- 343/22 = proportionately 1560 % or 15.6 times overdiagnosed

SOURCE: CDR Weekly, Volume 16 Number 12 Published on: 23 March 2006

 

(http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/)

 
post #14 of 59
I just googled the heck out of it because I have not heard anything about outbreaks of these diseases in the Philly area. I get a lot of hits about measles in Philly....From 1991!!! Are you sure there ate current cases or was your doctor possibly using fear tactics? If there are current outbreaks please send me the link. Thanks!
post #15 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post

I just googled the heck out of it because I have not heard anything about outbreaks of these diseases in the Philly area. I get a lot of hits about measles in Philly....From 1991!!! Are you sure these are current cases or was your doctor possibly using fear tactics? If there are current outbreaks please send me the link. Thanks!

yeahthat.gif

post #16 of 59

Probably not.

 

I would google the CDC, see if there really was a meaningful outbreak, and take it from there.  

 

For a child, rubella and mumps do not phase me at all.  I would be more worried if I had teens, but teens get some say in their healthcare, IMHO.

 

Measles does squigg me out a bit, but I reserve the right to do more research before I make a call on it.

 

If I gave the MMR I would make sure it was MMR and not MMRV, which has a higher rate of something (that is technical for you - but please look it up, it is not as safe for one reason or another).

 

As a foil to the Ronald Dahl story, I would like to bring up Raggedy Ann.  The daughter of Johnny Gruelle, the creator of the Raggedy Ann stories, died at age 13 from what her parents believe was a vaccine reaction (a vaccine given against their consent).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggedy_Ann

 

Yes, it is horrible -  people occasionally die from measles or suffer long term consequences; people occasionally die from vaccine reactions as well and suffer long term consequences (oooh, and when they do die from a vaccine reaction, the authorities don't believe the parents at all).

 

The stats are very clear - your child is very unlikely to get measles (an average of 60 cases of measles in the USA for the last ten years - although last year was higher: 221.  no deaths reported)   http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6115a1.htm?s_cid=mm6115a1_w


Edited by purslaine - 6/30/12 at 6:18am
post #17 of 59

No....I would not.  I'd rather shore up defenses and research how to best treat it, but that is just me.

post #18 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post

I just googled the heck out of it because I have not heard anything about outbreaks of these diseases in the Philly area. I get a lot of hits about measles in Philly....From 1991!!! Are you sure there ate current cases or was your doctor possibly using fear tactics? If there are current outbreaks please send me the link. Thanks!

 

there doesn't seem to be Lot, but more than usual.

 

here's links to local news I quickly found 

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8522260

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8274652

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8113728

 

 

and for mumps

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=7775044 2010 and 30 in NJ in 2009

 

 

 

I'm not sold, but I'm not not sold....

post #19 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakotablue View Post

there doesn't seem to be Lot, but more than usual.

 

here's links to local news I quickly found 

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8522260

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8274652

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=8113728

 

and for mumps

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/health&id=7775044 2010 and 30 in NJ in 2009

 

I'm not sold, but I'm not not sold....

 

That doesn't show me that there are any recent outbreaks in her area.

First link: 1 measles case in Delaware in January 2012

Second link: 1 measles case in Montgomery County, PA July 2011

Third link: 3 probable measles cases in Bucks County, PA May 2011

 

Fourth link (for mumps) is from 2010, so not recent.

post #20 of 59

Here's one (case) in Philly, from May 25 2012.

 

 

 

Quote:

A case of measles has been identified in an unvaccinated Philadelphia resident who recently traveled to Thailand, according to public health officials.

 

 

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/05/25/case-of-measles-identified-in-philadelphia-resident/

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