would you do MMR? - Page 3

[serenbat]

Things that cause thick mucous, like mumps, are not benign to my child. 

nor are NON-VPD!

in fact your child and those like your child, have a much greater risk of the common cold and yes that travels up and down from Philly to Boston and a bit faster and far more often- most people no longer stay home from work or keep their children home from school when they have the non-vac common mucous filled cold and your changes of exposure vs the slim minority that do not vac for MMR really posses a greater risk yet no one goes after these people - this is not an attack on you it simple is the truth that more people in the general population pose a greater over all risk to compromised people vs nonMMR vaced kiddies

[stik]

I'm not denying it - non-VPDs suck too.  In years when she was more fragile, we kept my younger dd home from daycare when too many kids seemed sniffly.  We would still give it serious consideration if she had already had too much wheezing or pneumonia in a season.  And honestly, there is no way we would send her to school with an active measles or mumps outbreak among her peers, vaccinated or not.  (My older dd would still go.)  But we can't eliminate all exposure.  We do what we can.  That includes vaccines for the whole family. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by stik 

As I have said before, I would regret putting you on ignore, even though you and I disagree on practically everything.

My children are every bit as delightful as yours, despite their excema, allergic rhinitis, asthma, and less-occasional-than-I-would-like-to-admit consumption of processed crap.  I'm pretty sure that's because of a fortuitous combination of luck and genetics.  And that is the full extent to which I am willing to allow my children to be involved in this or any other conversation about vaccination on MDC.  If I feel the need, I will bring them up.  Please stop talking about them now. 

Should you ever come across a scientific study that disproves germ theory, please do share. 

I thought I was talking about my children not yours. I do not need to disprove the germ theory, it is a belief that has never been proved. 

ETA: this is now OT, so I will no longer continue this "conversation".

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by stik 

Are we playing "whose children are better" now?  Because I really don't see that as relevant to the OP.  There are great kids on both sides of the debate.

I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

Just to be clear, (not sure if it's relevant) I chose to never vaccinate my kids before I knew about any genetic predisposition to possible vaccine reactions. I just feel incredibly lucky, because there was no reason for me to have doubts about vaccines at the time. I just started researching for a kind of random reason.

[stik]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I don't think anyone is playing "whose children are better."

I think the relevance of ma2two's comment is that, given the genetics in her family, she did not do MMR and believes that that is one of the reason her children are so healthy today.  The OP's question is "would you do MMR?"

Apparently, it makes you furious when people discount complications of diseases due to underlying disorders, yet you are completely discounting someone who was aware of an underlying genetic predisposition to vaccine reaction and wisely chose to avoid such a reaction by avoiding the vaccines that would have triggered it.

Taximom, I explained my reasons for taking underlying conditions seriously and not discounting the severity of a disease just because it once appeared on the Flintstones.  I have no idea what you're talking about. 

[I'mAMama!]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

The vast majority of people with measles do not need to be hospitalized, there is no conventional medical treatment for it. What kind of disease are you imagining measles is? Since the vaccine was introduced, it has not changed into some new kind of super killer virus, it is just the same disease it was 40 years ago and the vast numbers who got sailed through it. Now given the fact that a great number of people in the US are now immune compromised from vaccines, environmental pollutants, and malnourished from processed foods, and consume vast amounts of food additives, and frankenfoods like GMOs and mercury laden HFCS, then it is possible they wouldn't fare as well and children of the previous generation who were less health compromised.

Is this your hypothesis or has this been documented somewhere?  My unvaccinated nephew contracted measles a couple of years ago and is now deaf as a result.  He (and his sister) have since been fully vaccinated, but they were both breastfed until 2yrs+, and eat only organic and unprocessed food.  To suggest that those that don't "sail through it" may have brought it upon themselves because of diet is insulting and almost certainly unsubstantiated.  Serious measles-related complications were seen 40 years ago too, when people were allegedly "less health compromised".

[Taximom5]

http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/MMR.aspx

"Historically, the majority of children in technologically advanced countries recovered from measles without major complications. However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality. "

"Most cases of measles are mild and symptoms begin with a light, hacking cough, low fever, runny eyes and nose and general signs of a cold. For four or five days before the outbreak of measles spots, the cough can become more severe and hacking with swelling and redness of the eyes and sensitivity to light. Fevers can be high (104-105 F.). The symptoms of high fever and cold do not respond to antibiotics, aspirin or cough medicine."

http://www.freemd.com/measles/overview.htm

"In most cases, symptoms of measles last for 10 to 14 days, and then resolve without treatment."

[Taximom5]

The MMR can cause deafness, just like measles can:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1029435/

Reports of sensorineural deafness after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960595

[Bilateral acute profound deafness after MMR vaccination--report of a case].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3227284

Unilateral total deafness as a complication of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination.

[I'mAMama!]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

The MMR can cause deafness, just like measles can:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1029435/

Reports of sensorineural deafness after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960595

[Bilateral acute profound deafness after MMR vaccination--report of a case].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3227284

Unilateral total deafness as a complication of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination.

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/MMR.aspx

"Historically, the majority of children in technologically advanced countries recovered from measles without major complications. However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality. "

"Most cases of measles are mild and symptoms begin with a light, hacking cough, low fever, runny eyes and nose and general signs of a cold. For four or five days before the outbreak of measles spots, the cough can become more severe and hacking with swelling and redness of the eyes and sensitivity to light. Fevers can be high (104-105 F.). The symptoms of high fever and cold do not respond to antibiotics, aspirin or cough medicine."

http://www.freemd.com/measles/overview.htm

"In most cases, symptoms of measles last for 10 to 14 days, and then resolve without treatment."

My point wasn't that many people don't survive the measles, but in response to your assertion that measles-related complications are due to poor diet. 

The papers you cite (that I can read...one is in Japanese) indicate that deafness was seen in 6 of 6 million cases, and that the MMR vaccine was only one potential cause.  Further, the authors state "The incidence of sudden hearing loss in adulthood is 5-20 per 100 000 person years and it is bilateral in 2% of cases.  If these figures applied to children, then more than six cases should have been reported, simply by chance, within a year of MMR immunisation."

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by I'mAMama! 

My point wasn't that many people don't survive the measles, but in response to your assertion that measles-related complications are due to poor diet. 

Where on earth did you think I made such an assertion?

[stik]

It's Mirzam's assertion.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by stik 

It's Mirzam's assertion.

That is totally twisting what I said. I stated malnutrition (which in the western world, can be the result of a diet of dead, processed foods) has an effect on how a person handles measles. I would also say that giving a child with measles antipyretics and antibiotics is also asking for trouble. Stik, I very clearly stated, when you "accused" me that I do not believe diet causes illness. 

[dakotablue]

OP here

I'm worried about measles,

I wasn't worried about mumps because I was under the impression that is would only possible cause sterility in adults, but my doctor said that wasn't true.

My ped is generally really awesome about vaccines, he doesn't believe in giving more than one at a time, ever if sick, gives shots in the tush instead of leg, and has only recommended, polio, DTaP and MMR for my kids. I want to trust his judgment, but MMR kinda scares me. Its the one most of the parents I worked with who had kids with autism blamed as a key moment. 

I don't ever go to Europe. I wish the single vax was still available.

I wanted to wait longer, but MMR was one shot I've always thought we'd do eventually.
 

I'm....argg not much closer to a decision and a little more worried both way now.

[stik]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

That is totally twisting what I said. I stated malnutrition (which in the western world, can be the result of a diet of dead, processed foods) has an effect on how a person handles measles. I would also say that giving a child with measles antipyretics and antibiotics is also asking for trouble. Stik, I very clearly stated, when you "accused" me that I do not believe diet causes illness. 

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

What I meant was, IAmAMama! Was talking about one of your posts, which she quoted in post 47, in re diet as a cause of complications of measles.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by dakotablue 

OP here

I'm worried about measles,

I wasn't worried about mumps because I was under the impression that is would only possible cause sterility in adults, but my doctor said that wasn't true.

My ped is generally really awesome about vaccines, he doesn't believe in giving more than one at a time, ever if sick, gives shots in the tush instead of leg, and has only recommended, polio, DTaP and MMR for my kids. I want to trust his judgment, but MMR kinda scares me. Its the one most of the parents I worked with who had kids with autism blamed as a key moment. 

I don't ever go to Europe. I wish the single vax was still available.

I wanted to wait longer, but MMR was one shot I've always thought we'd do eventually.
 

I'm....argg not much closer to a decision and a little more worried both way now.

Why don't you wait then? Most people who develop autism do not do so after age 4 or so.  There is little harm in waiting unless there is a measles outbreak in your area - and that should be pretty easy to confirm with the help of goggle (try CDC)  You could also call the health department in your area for stats. 

If there is a measles outbreak in your area, and you are worried about autism - I would take a close look at the family tree, other risk factors for autism, and weigh the risks of measles in your child versus what you think the risks are of acquiring autism.  If you do decide to vaccinate, I would repost asking for advice.  There might be a brand you can request that has a safer profile (not sure with MMR - but that is the case with other vaccines:  some are better than others).  I also think there are vitamins you can give before vaxxing that may or may not help alleviate risk.  

I am particularly in favour of delaying vaccinating when it comes to males.  Autism is much more common in males than females.  

Edited by purslaine - 7/3/12 at 6:06am

[bri276]

However, measles in teenagers and adults or in very young infants can be much more severe with serious complications and increased mortality

And here's one of the best arguments in favor of vaccinating when you live in a place where measles is not endemic. Babies and toddlers do eventually become teens and adults.

But, since we have not had outbreaks in our area and since we rarely travel and have never traveled with the kids internationally, I felt it was reasonable to delay until age 6. It truly has nothing to do with Wakefield but I do have concerns re the *possible*, but relatvely unconvincing, anecdotal evidence of some developmental regression after MMR in early toddlerhood. Having a dev delayed child....it was more anxiety than I could take. But she did get it last yr and did fine, and dd2 will also either by age 5 or before that if there is a local outbreak or we have occasion to travel overseas. I feel very confident that the risk of harm from measles, even for perfectly healthy children, is much higher than from MMR.

[erigeron]

Originally Posted by dakotablue  gives shots in the tush instead of leg

 

The front thigh is actually recommended over the glutes (butt) as a site for vaccinations in small children, because of the risk of nerve damage in the gluteal area.

[dakotablue]

Yes, but that would be for inexperienced people, aka the shift from doctors giving vaccines to nurses giving vaccines. He (my doctor) has been giving vaccines for over 30 years and does not allow anyone else in his office to do it. I trust his experience. He explained the tush is a better place because of the size of the muscle, but only if you are trained to do it that way.

Kinda like how version for breech babies is becoming a lost art. Most OBs jump to c-section.

 ETA: I assume he does the same no matter what age, but mine didn't start until 2 years.