Does anyone regret NOT circumcising? *this is NOT a pro circ thread, just curious about the... - Page 4

[htovjm]

Thank you Mama24-7 for taking the time to explain. I certainly appreciate your passion in this area and your ability to express something so delicate with care and sensitivity! I don't want to go into our personal reasons for circumcising DS because I know this isn't the place for it. But as any parent does, we did what we thought was best for DS. I know because of what you've said that this may baffle you, but people don't always agree and that is the way humankind is.

When I originally posted in this forum, I didn't review the rules first and I'm certainly sorry for that. I didn't wish to get anyone upset!

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by makaleka87 

Thank you Mama24-7 for taking the time to explain. I certainly appreciate your passion in this area and your ability to express something so delicate with care and sensitivity! I don't want to go into our personal reasons for circumcising DS because I know this isn't the place for it. But as any parent does, we did what we thought was best for DS. I know because of what you've said that this may baffle you, but people don't always agree and that is the way humankind is.

When I originally posted in this forum, I didn't review the rules first and I'm certainly sorry for that. I didn't wish to get anyone upset!

Wow, that's the first compliment I've ever gotten on my intactivism.  

I find it interesting that you mention "humankind."  A child has no say, no power, no voice; how are they being treated humanely in being circumcised?  Would it be humane to circumcise you without your consent?  What other peoples bodies can we alter without their permission?  Children deserve the same care & respect that every other individual deserves.  

Additionally, you say that people don't always agree & that is the way humankind is.  The reasons given for FGM (female genital mutilation) are pretty much the same reasons given for doing this to boys here.  Do you feel the same way about those who commit FGM?  That "that is the way humankind is?"

I have no doubt that you made (as most parents do) the best decision you could have at the time.  However, when you know better, you do better.  You did not answer my question: 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mama24-7 

makaleka87...

I have to wonder if you would be suggesting the OP get a "balanced" opinion if she were talking about circ'ing her daughter?

No matter what your reason (and when your son is old enough & finds out what he is missing, he may decide that he wanted that part of his body) is, your son may not agree with you.  If a parent leaves their child whole, they if the child doesn't agree, they can make the change.  When a parent decides to alter their child, then the child has no choice.  No matter what anyone tells you, this is NOT a parenting decision any more than it is a parenting decision to circumcise your daughter or to leave her whole.   It is not your son's fault that he was born male & born into this culture that does not value his WHOLE body.

As I said in my first response to you, I hope that you will research this before you have another child.  Every person has a right to their whole body, regardless of what those around them think/feel/believe.  I do hope you will leave any future children whole.

All the best,

Sus

[Rylins mama]

2 intact boys and I would never change it or make a different decision.

[tammylsmith]

Wouldn't dream of it. My son is two and seeing boys who are circumcised is weird and sad now... it just looks all wrong. Haven't had the slightest hint of any issue with anything, and he's pretty.. er.. rough with his bits.

[FeralFox]

My intact son is 4 1/2.  No issues, no regrets.  My intact husband is 29.  No regrets from him either, and his functions just fine, thanks, despite having the dreaded "hidden/buried penis" that some doctors will tell you absolutely requires circumcision.  I'm 39 weeks pregnant with our first child together, a little girl who will also remain intact, so clearly his "OMG circ it now" problem isn't actually a problem at all.

[distraughtmama]

I made the choice to circumcise my son. When I met with the doctor who would be performing the surgery, I found out that even if I didn't have it done as an infant, my son would have to have it done later in life. We were informed (by multiple doctors) that my son had phimosis. In his case, the opening of the foreskin would not be large enough for the head to come out. I was told this would result in painful erections and even infections. So, although I made the choice prior to knowing this...I am glad I made the choice I did. I did plenty of research prior to the decision and I stand strong in my choice. I understand that not everyone believes in circumcision, and that is their choice and I respect that.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 

I made the choice to circumcise my son. When I met with the doctor who would be performing the surgery, I found out that even if I didn't have it done as an infant, my son would have to have it done later in life. We were informed (by multiple doctors) that my son had phimosis. In his case, the opening of the foreskin would not be large enough for the head to come out. I was told this would result in painful erections and even infections. So, although I made the choice prior to knowing this...I am glad I made the choice I did. I did plenty of research prior to the decision and I stand strong in my choice. I understand that not everyone believes in circumcision, and that is their choice and I respect that.

Welcome to MDC!    I do hope you will stick around.

I'm sorry to hear, for you & your son that the doctors, all of them, that "informed" you, were not foreskin & normal penis knowledgable.  I'm telling you this so that if you have more children, none of the rest will suffer the same fate.  The human penis is not fully developed at birth.  The foreskin is fused to the head of the penis & the opening acts like a sphynicter (sp?), similar to the anus, to let urine out.  It is supposed to be this way because it is not fully developed.

You can learn more about & share with your doctors, this link: http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/video/prepuce.html  Another one: http://icgi.org/Downloads/FD2.pdf  This was a lecture given at Georgetown University: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM-SkwGEf0&feature=player_embedded

I wonder how these doctors knew that your son would need a circumcision later?  I wonder what information they were going on that led them to that conclusion?  I wonder if they were intact or themselves circumcised?  I wonder if they had left any children of theirs intact?

We live is a foreskin-phobic society, unfortunately.  I would bet that had you had your son in the UK, he'd still have his foreskin.  If he was born in South America, he'd still have his foreskin.  You would not be able to find a doctor in those parts of the world who said that he "needs" a circumcision, at birth or likely at any other time in his life.

Distraughtmama, you're not the first mother to be misinformed by the medical professionals.  There is post after post here: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/112410/if-you-regret-circumcising-your-son-s-please-post-here

Clearly you thought you were doing what was best for him, following the advice of the doctors.  I'm so sorry for the two of you.  You aren't the first & until every doctor is either prevented from performing prepuce amputation or is fully educated, you won't be the last.  But you can learn from this & not repeat the mistake with future children.  You wouldn't be the first mama to be in that position either!   After all, when you know better, you do better. .

Best wishes to you & your son,

Sus

[distraughtmama]

The choice to circumcise was made prior to the knowledge of his medical needs. I believe in circumcision, and that it is the right choice for my family. I understand that you feel i was misinformed, but I was not. A few of the doctors I saw regarding his condition were against circumcision, and still said that it would be a procedure he would need in the future. I did plenty of research on the issue and realize it is "taboo" now-a-days. But I know that I made the right choice for me and my family. It is the same choice I would make for any future son I might have. I respect those who choose to not have it done, but it is not what I believe in. I'm sorry you feel that because I made the choice that I was misinformed about the procedure....but I know exactly what it entails and even witnessed it. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.

Edited by distraughtmama - 8/17/12 at 2:18pm

[pek64]

I don't understand why he would *need* it in the future.

How did humankind survive and thrive prior to circumcision even being thought of, if it is necessary?

I made a unilateral, impromptu decision to leave my son whole. I thought I could have it done later, after getting more information. I have yet to find anything that has convinced me to change that original decision. By now, that decision belongs to my son. I doubt he'll be changing it, either.

My own father, I discovered, was whole, and he was very healthy until in his eighties. Unfortunately, at that time he started having serious health issues, not one involving circumcision as the solition, though.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 

The choice to circumcise was made prior to the knowledge of his medical needs. I believe in circumcision, and that it is the right choice for my family. 

If you ddin't live in a circ'ing CULTure, you wouldn't believe this.  Find me a secular English woman who does.  No one here is going to tell you YOU can't get yourself circ'd.  YOUR son may not agree w/ what YOU thought was "the right choice for my family."  But the choice has now been taken from him.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 
I understand that you feel i was misinformed, but I was not. A few of the doctors I saw regarding his condition were against circumcision, and still said that it would be a procedure he would need in the future. 

Again, how did they know?  How is it that a child who has not gone through puberty, who is born w/ the foreskin fused as is normal, & has a penis that is not fully developed, how can they gaurantee he'd need it later?  And, even if he did, he would be given proper pain relief, meds for pain afterwards & most of all, he wouldn't have to worry about the open wound sitting in feces & urine & he wouldn't have had to worry that they'd take more skin than he needed to grow into (you know, there is no dotted line that says "cut here") so his penis won't curve when he gets an erection becuase there's not enough skin or that the hair from his scrotum won't pull up onto his penis when he gets an erection becuase they took too much skin, etc., etc., etc.

It is cosemtic surgery & it was his choice to make.  He no longer has that choice.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 
 I did plenty of research on the issue and realize it is "taboo" now-a-days. 

You can call it taboo, it's a human rights violation.  And, it's no more taboo than female genital cutting is.  You are also in the case AGAINST circumcision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 
But I know that I made the right choice for me and my family. 

You son may not agree w/ the decision you made but he will not be able to do anything about it once he realizes what was taken from him. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 
 I respect those who choose to not have it done, but it is not what I believe in. I'm sorry you feel that because I made the choice that I was misinformed about the procedure....but I know exactly what it entails and even witnessed it. Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.

I'm sorry for what was taken from your son w/o his consent.  OMGoodness, I can't believe that you could witness that.   I have nightmares after accidentally seeing a circ.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by distraughtmama 
Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions.

And your son has a right to his whole body & that trumps your right to your opinion.

 

Sus

[LiLStar]

Yes, everyone has the right to their own opinions, but they do not have the right to their own facts. There used to be the belief, and the belief still lingers in some regions to an extent, that the foreskin in intact infants needed to be retracted and cleaned daily. Doing this caused pain, bleeding, infection, and scar tissue development. After that kind of damage, the recurrent infections and the scarring caused dr's to then advise circumcision. The damage is 100% preventable by not messing with the foreskin. leave it completely alone. (Boys can, and they DO, play with it plenty. they won't hurt themselves) The other misconception that causes some dr's to advise a circ is a nonretractible foreskin. There is a wide range of normal for when it retracts on its own. Before it does, the opening may appear to be a "pinhole" or even not visible at all. This is all normal. If it can't retract by the teen years, if the boy chooses, he may do stretching exercises in addition to a steroid cream. In some regions of the US, most drs haven't ever seen a foreskin unless they were preparing to cut it off. They simply do not have enough experience to have any idea what is normal development. 

[MichelleZB]

The decision can't be right "for your family". What does your son's foreskin have to do with your family? It's not your family's penis, it's his penis. You're pretending it should be a family decision, but it isn't. It's like saying that cutting off his finger was the right decision "for your family" or marrying him to a woman you chose was right "for your family".

Infants can't have phimosis, so there's no way your infant son could have been diagnosed with it. All infant foreskins are fused to the penis, whether they will later develop problems (rare) or not.

People have a right to their opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't think your opinion is silly, or misinformed. And I do think that.

I should be so harsh. I realize that you have to defend circumcision, because you did it to your son, and to admit circumcision is wrong would be to admit that you injured your son on purpose. That is a horrifying thought, and one some mothers go to great lengths to avoid thinking. I understand that. But please, for the sake of your future sons, read some more threads on this board. Circumcision is an unnecessary cosmetic procedure, and the doctors who told you that your infant son had phimosis were mistaken.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Distraughtmama-

Welcome to MDC.  I would like to draw your attention to the forum guidlines. 

Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. TCAC hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, care of the intact child's penis and other educational topics. We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision.

I've allowed a few of the posts to remain in order to allow the opportunity to address some common misinformation regarding circumcision for future members, but I have removed a few as well.  In the future, if you choose to post in TCAC, remember the purpose and forum guidlines of this forum.  Thank you!

[TheDanaK]

My son is intact. We have had no issues with his foreskin, nor did we expect to. Care is easy - clean it like a finger. My grandfather never had problems with his foreskin from birth, through WW2, & eventually in a nursing home. I don't expect my son to encounter any problems, either.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed. 

[mama24-7]

I was scrolling through a bunch of circ quotes tonight, and this one made me think of the recent & not-so-recent discussion in this thread: "Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." Benjamin Franklin.

Sus

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow 

Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed. 

OK, I didn't mean it that way, nor did I read it that way.  My intention was to draw attention to the words used and think about how that may give inisght into how they make decisions.  My post was actually directed toward the others reading or participating.

I find this to be potentially important in understanding how to discuss and or make points when this or other issues come up in discussion.  Someone using logic and objective based decision making can usually be swayed by logic and citing studies.

Someone who is using what I would call faith based reasoning, whether religous derived, or secular, needs a different approach, in my experience.  For them, you need to understand enough of there assumtions and then sort out how to work with those assumtions first.

But thanks for the heads up, I can see you or others reading between the lines and feeling like I was attacking her.

Regards

[artekah]

Originally Posted by Greg B 

Quote: Originally Posted by QueenOfTheMeadow Greg- Just a heads up, because your post came across as debating the poster and not the post, it has been removed. Someone who is using what I would call faith based reasoning, whether religous derived, or secular, needs a different approach, in my experience. For them, you need to understand enough of there assumtions and then sort out how to work with those assumtions first. But thanks for the heads up, I can see you or others reading between the lines and feeling like I was attacking her. Regards

I find this really interesting. If you are willing to discuss, what do you think are some of the common assumptions surrounding circumcision that keep people in that faith-based mode where they won't respond to reason or facts? And how do you work with those assumptions so you can get to the point where you're speaking the same language, if you will?

I struggle with this a lot, because when you simply look at the information before you, it is SO completely obvious that infant circumcision is SO completely wrong. It is a no-brainer, once you know the basic facts (and I mean BASIC, like reading one page on the functions of the foreskin.) I've always assumed that if we could just make sure everyone has the facts, the practice would just stop immediately. But obviously it's not that simple. So how do you talk to people who are not only uninformed but also invested in faith-based thinking around the subject? In a way that actually makes a difference for more little boys?

ETA: Perhaps that is a better discussion for a new thread. Didn't mean to go off topic! But I am interested in communication strategies for bridging the gap on this issue.
Edited by artekah - 8/20/12 at 8:25am

[artekah]

Double post

[herbsmd]

Originally Posted by artekah 


I find this really interesting. If you are willing to discuss, what do you think are some of the common assumptions surrounding circumcision that keep people in that faith-based mode where they won't respond to reason or facts? And how do you work with those assumptions so you can get to the point where you're speaking the same language, if you will?
I struggle with this a lot, because when you simply look at the information before you, it is SO completely obvious that infant circumcision is SO completely wrong. It is a no-brainer, once you know the basic facts (and I mean BASIC, like reading one page on the functions of the foreskin.) I've always assumed that if we could just make sure everyone has the facts, the practice would just stop immediately. But obviously it's not that simple. So how do you talk to people who are not only uninformed but also invested in faith-based thinking around the subject? In a way that actually makes a difference for more little boys?

I just circumcised my boys out of ignorance--I didn't even know that there was such a thing as foreskin, or that my husband was circumcised at all!!!  I had very little understanding of penis anatomy and I didn't think of it before hand.  I had a jewish doctor who sort-of didn't understand why I wouldn't circ. and a husband who was already circ'd and didn't understand either.  I certainly regret my decision, but these days lose little sleep over it because they're fine, healthy, and it can no longer be changed without a traumatic experience again (they're 9 and 11, and frankly I think they'd think I was crazy if I told them we were having a surgery to put skin over their penis).  

One thing I think that could make it easier to talk to people is not to assume that the information is given.  I'm a fairly bright woman with advanced degrees and all of that kind of thing.  Still, penis anatomy that I learned somewhere in grade school or high school somehow didn't stick in my brain (I wasn't paying attention) and those first few days of parenting were shocking on their own--a little circumcision didn't seem too far-fetched with all of the other things that I had just seen for the first time.  Then, knowing that my brothers were all circumcised made it that much easier (I called my mom first, just to check).  

I am the kind of person who listens well to facts and to ideas around them--I can tell you that, if I had been informed, I would never have chosen circumcision.  But I can also say that people can often be offensive when they feel that they have a purchase on the "right" answer.  Ideally, we all have to make decisions for ourselves.  That is the part of parenting (and life!) that is the hardest.  I think you can do what I do and not make people feel badly for what choices they've already made (and always be mindful that you can't see in a boys pants--the people you least suspect that would make that decision just MIGHT have!).  I can tell you that I will advise my sons and daughter against circumcision in the future, and I am sure that this discussion will only go on for a generation or more.  Some will be lost in the battle--mine were.  Unfortunately, the best you can do is to accept that unfortunate fact and get on with informing people as best you can.  Hopefully, the less people are offended by the subject, the better on we'll all be.  Hopefully, in the end, we can stop this rather inhumane procedure.  

Maggie