Chicken Pox vaccine

[Bronwen13]

So, my fully unvaxxed kids have never had *knock on wood* a childhood disease like measles or chicken pox.  When I was a kid, apparently I had 'all of them'.  Which would be weird, btw, seeing as I also had all my childhood vaccines.  Hmmmm.  Anyhow, now that chicken pox doesn't seem to be as out in the open as it used to be, what if my kids don't ever get it?  I've read conflicting things about CP . . apparently it's more 'dangerous' as an adult?  I know Shingles can be painful, but can only happen if you had CP . . . and apparently you can get Shingles from the CP vaccine. 

So what if my kids don't ever get CP?  Is it a worry?  Should I be trying to expose them?  They are 5 & 8.

[ssun5]

I haven't noticed that CP is not still around.

My older two kids have caught them without me trying. Both from vaccinated people as well.

Honestly though, If I was not Told that my kids had been exposed, I would have NEVER known that they had them as they Both only ever had 3 spots show up (that I would not have thought of as pox if I didn't know)

Strangely, it was states apart and 5 years from each other as well. (Maybe your kids have been exposed and you didn't know!)

They would have a fever one day, pox showed up the next day exactly 21 days after exposure and then it was over.

My now 15 month old has them right now.. not even trying to find it and what do you know..... it was a recently Vaxed girl who came to the church nursery and the day after was DX with shingles and we were all notified. Yep, 20 days later, a fever and this time though she has 10 spots.

My personal opinion. Yes, go ahead and expose them. With the amount of people now coming down with shingles everywhere, cp vax not having a high efficacy =it will more than likely be around for a long time.

If they get it now in childhood it stays a normal childhood disease with Lifelong immunity.  (I can not prove BUT: I truly believe that people who have "natural" immunity from CP will be LESS likely to get shingles later on in life AND why worry about getting CP during adulthood... CP is not going away! To me the benefits outweigh the risk.

That said, I have never looked for CP as it has always found us even when I was not trying. :-)

DS-12

DD-7

DD-1
 

[Rrrrrachel]

Natural chicken pix infection is more likely to cause shingles and the shingles are likely to be more severe, since it is the full wild virus reactivating rather than an attenuated one. If your children caught chicken poxfrom someone who was recently vaccinated that is probably also why their cases were so mild.

You should definitely either vaccinate your children or expose them early in life since yes, chicken pox can be serious in adults (well, it can be serious in children but you know what I mean).

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Natural chicken pox infection is more likely to cause shingles and the shingles are likely to be more severe, since it is the full wild virus reactivating rather than an attenuated one. 

I don't think this is true. Do you have anything to back that up?

[Rrrrrachel]

Which part? The fact that it's an attenuated virus?

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Which part? The fact that it's an attenuated virus?

 No, this part,of course. "Natural chicken pox infection is more likely to cause shingles and the shingles are likely to be more severe"

[emmy526]

Imo, the chicken pox and shingles vaccines are a great way to keep these two maladies circulating in society, with no real immunity achieved from receiving either of them.

[Rrrrrachel]

Oh, well that's just common sense from the virus being attenuated, isn't it? A weaker virus that reactivates isn't as bad as a full strength virus that reactivates.

It's objectively true that the chicken pox vaccine has reduced cases and severity of chicken pox. You can certainly say you don't want to use it because you're afraid of potential side effects or you feel it's unnecessary, but it's silly to say it doesn't work.

[nia82]

I am hoping for natural exposure. I never had them as a kid, received the CP vaccine 4 times as an adult and still no antibodies. Most likely this is something that I might have passed on to the kids so I highly prefer them getting it in childhood instead of being an unprotected adult like me. I'm done having babies, which was the main part to worry about for me with CP as an adult. 

Oh and they are around. My friends' kids had CP in February. I felt DD was too young though. I would prefer 24 months and older, plus I was in the hospital at the time with food poisoning!

Btw, google the incidence of shingles and children in conjunction with the vaccine. Not pretty.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 



It's objectively true that the chicken pox vaccine has reduced cases and severity of chicken pox. You can certainly say you don't want to use it because you're afraid of potential side effects or you feel it's unnecessary, but it's silly to say it doesn't work.

That's only part of the truth--and leaving out some of the truth is sometimes equivalent to a lie.

The CDC reports the effectiveness of the vaccine as 44 percent against disease of any severity and 86 percent against moderate or severe disease.

44% is pretty pathetic, particularly when there are documented cases of transmission via the vaccine itself.

According to NVIC:
Between 3/95 and  7/98, there were  6, 574 reports to VAERS of health problems after chickenpox vaccination.

"That translates into 67.5 adverse events per 100,000 doses of vaccine or one in 1,481 vaccinations. About four percent of cases (about 1 in 33,000 doses) were serious including shock, encephalitis, thrombocytopenia (blood disorder) and 14 deaths."

 

The VAERS data analysis led to the addition of 17 adverse events to the manufacturer's product label after the vaccine was licensed in 1995."

 

SEVENTEEN!  So--what were they?  

The five listed by VAERS are, presumably, the most serious:

1)secondary bacterial infections (cellulitis);

2)secondary transmission of vaccine strain virus infection to close contacts; 

3) transverse myelitis; 

4)Guillain Barre syndrome; 

5)herpes zoster (shingles).

 

VAERS again: "There have been documented cases of transmission of vaccine strain virus from a vaccinated child to household contacts, including a pregnant woman."

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Oh, well that's just common sense from the virus being attenuated, isn't it? A weaker virus that reactivates isn't as bad as a full strength virus that reactivates.
It's objectively true that the chicken pox vaccine has reduced cases and severity of chicken pox. 

It is not common sense in regards to the chickenpox vaccine and shingles, and if you can find any study that supports your claim, please share it.

Your second point is correct. The chickenpox vaccine has reduced the cases of chickenpox. However, it has increased the cases of shingles.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx

Edited by ma2two - 7/1/12 at 7:39am

[Bronwen13]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

I haven't noticed that CP is not still around.

I guess I should've worded it differently.  I know CP is still around, just in my mind, doesn't seem as prevelant as when I was a kid.  So sure, maybe the vaccine has diminished the amount of cases, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run out and put a potentially harmful vaccine into my kids! :P

About two years ago two vaccinated kids my kids play with had what they thought was chicken pox. (A doctor diagnosed one of the kids with it).  My kids never got anything.  So perhaps they have been exposed?  IDK.  I don't want to put them thru the pain of having titers done to see if they are indeed immune.

[Rrrrrachel]

Yes, the theory is that exposure to people with chicken pox gives people a natural booster, helping keep shingles at bay. Reducing the number of people who get chicken pox therefore temporarily increases the rate of shingles. Especially if people don't get the shingles vaccine.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Just a reminder that this is the I'm Not Vaccinating forum. Posts advising someone to vaccinate are not appropriate here. 

[ssun5]

If your children caught chicken poxfrom someone who was recently vaccinated that is probably also why their cases were so mild.
 

That isn't exactly what I said. My first two actually caught Chicken pox from two different, fully vaxed children who came down with chicken pox severely and passed it around to a bunch of people as they thought there was no possible way they could have it. The vaxed individuals had it the worst and my kids both ended up with mild cases.

My daughter now is the only one who has caught it from a little 13-14 month old girl suffering from shingles as a direct cause from vaccination. 

Yep, you have no proof that wild cp will cause shingles later on in life to be worse. All I see is that the CP vax is making shingles go through the roof right now(not for people needing "natural boosters" It is going through the roof for CHILDREN who should NEVER been contracting it in the first place. 

A weaker virus that reactivates isn't as bad as a full strength virus that reactivates.

And where on earth are you getting this idea from? Back it up, show me the studies that say this is true.

[Rrrrrachel]

I'm just going to bow out.

[pers]

I think I would.  I vaxed for it, but chickenpox is the one vaccine that I very seriously considered skipping (and am still not 100% sure of) or at least waiting until my kids were older to see if they got it before getting to the ages where it is a higher risk.  If I hadn't though, I would have felt really, really bad about deliberately getting sick and making them suffer, and be devastated if they end up being one of the rare serious cases and I'd caused that... but I think I would have done it anyway.  My reasons would be to make sure that they got it at the ages safest to have it, to try and get it over with when I was fairly sure they were otherwise healthy so they wouldn't have it concurrently with the flu or something (if possible, you never can tell for sure if they are coming down with something), so I would be aware that they had been exposed (chickenpox becomes contagious a while before the first spot/symptoms appear) so that I can keep them home for the incubation period and we aren't exposing an immune compromised kid they happen to sit next to at the library or something, and lastly (and least importantly) so we could try and get it over with at a time that won't make them miss out on anything they are really looking forward to.  I had them over Christmas vacation when we had my grandparents and a lot of other family I rarely saw visiting from across the country, and I had to sit home itching and sore and while my cousins (who had already had them) went out for all sorts of fun events and activities.  It sucked.  

Originally Posted by ma2two 

 No, this part,of course. "Natural chicken pox infection is more likely to cause shingles and the shingles are likely to be more severe"

Shingles is rare in children, and when it does happen it is typically (but not always) much milder than when adults get it, but there have always been cases of pediatric shingles, even in children who are otherwise healthy.  There are two studies (that I am aware of; possible there are more that I'm not) showing the risk of pediatric shingles is lower in children who have been vaccinated than in children who had the natural disease.  I don't have them bookmarked on my new computer, but one is a rather old study of children being treated for leukemia (shingles is not so uncommon for them due to the cancer + chemo weakening their immune systems) which showed the kids who had been vaccinated were much less likely to have shingles during treatment than kids who had had chickenpox.  The other one was as Kaiser study from just a couple years ago that I think involved them looking at patient records for one of their regions and finding that kids who had been vaccinated experienced shingles about 1/5 as often as... I can't remember if it was kids who had doccumented cases of chickenpox or just the general population of children.  

It is expected that this protection will last.  Of course while it looks promising from what information we have so far, more study is definitely needed as more time passes and kids who have been vaccinated get older.  Time will tell.  

Originally Posted by emmy526 

Imo, the chicken pox and shingles vaccines are a great way to keep these two maladies circulating in society, with no real immunity achieved from receiving either of them.

I can see this as a concern with chickenpox if the vaccine doesn't last as long as expected and so people are protected during childhood only to get it as adults.  It is something I worry about too.  But shingles is not something that circulates (except that is is possible, though not common, for someone who has not had chickenpox to get chickenpox from someone with shingles).  Once you have chickenpox, the virus travels to along nerves to their roots where it remains, generally dormant, for the rest of your life.  Shingles is when that virus reactivates.  It can be caused by a weakened immune system, but many cases occur in people who seem completely healthy.  It is a fairly common problem for the elderly (and always has been), the population for which the vaccine is recommended.  The shingles vaccine is not intended to provide herd immunity or stop circulation or do anything expect protect the high risk individual it is give to from getting shingles.  

[ssun5]

Due to the dramatic decline in chickenpox, children are now experiencing a higher incidence of shingles and Goldman predicts that a large scale increase in shingles incidence will soon become manifest among adultsÂa group more susceptible to serious complications.

Vaccine manufacturers plan to license a booster  shingles vaccine to substitute for the boosting that naturally occurred when chickenpox disease was previously circulating in the population. ÂThis will likely lead to endless disease-and-cure cycles, says Goldman.

ÂVaricella vaccination would have been less problematic if all children had the opportunity to gain natural immunity and only those still susceptible at twelve years old were vaccinated

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb82645.htm

This is a messy situation in my mind.

[Rrrrrachel]

That's from 2003, so I guess I'm wondering where's the epidemic?

[pers]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

Due to the dramatic decline in chickenpox, children are now experiencing a higher incidence of shingles and Goldman predicts that a large scale increase in shingles incidence will soon become manifest among adultsÂa group more susceptible to serious complications.

Vaccine manufacturers plan to license a booster  shingles vaccine to substitute for the boosting that naturally occurred when chickenpox disease was previously circulating in the population. ÂThis will likely lead to endless disease-and-cure cycles, says Goldman.

ÂVaricella vaccination would have been less problematic if all children had the opportunity to gain natural immunity and only those still susceptible at twelve years old were vaccinated

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb82645.htm

This is a messy situation in my mind.

Wait... he wrote an article about himself, referring to himself in the third person?  That seems just a little odd. 

Shingles vaccine has been around for a few years now.  It is approved by the FDA for age 50 up, but is only on the adult schedule for a ages 60 and up.  The elderly have always had a fairly high risk of shingles.