other children rude to your child - what to do? - Page 4

[tiqa]

Originally Posted by ladytigerfairy 

I also just read thatvuour daughter is home during the week all day with your parents.. that means she's not getting any peer interaction and is seeking out a lot at the playground especialy if its one of her only opportunities to be social! My son would be going crazy if he were with my parents all week! Have your parents drop her off twice a week to some sort of half day preschool.. you will notice a huge difference!!! Best of luck.. sure it will work out!

It's responses like this that get me so confused.

It's a playground, a public space.

Why shouldn't children interact with one another in a public space?  Why shouldn't it be a great place to "seek" social interaction?  I'm so confused.  Please explain this to me.

Maybe it's different in different areas, but here about 3/4 of parents have play structures in their backyards.  And there are private play groups as well.  It seems logical to me that a public playground would be the space where children go to gather.  That's what we did when I was young.  You're a kid?  Go to the neighborhood park.  Make some friends.  Have fun.  Be back by dark.  And I'm not even that old.  Now it seems like the majority of kids expect a private play experience at even public playgrounds.  What gives?

[leighi123]

Ds has always been very friendly - one of his first words was "hi" and he would sit in the grocery cart as a baby and say "hi" to anyone near by.   He is almost 5 (on friday!) and is still the same way.  He goes up to kids and adults and asks them their name, how old they are, etc. that some kids are not talkers (maybe they are shy, busy, distracted,don't know how to talk yet, etc).   He will often go as the kids parent for info if the kid doesn't respond ("whats your kid's name?  How old is he?  would he like to share my ball with me and play catch?")   Or he will go talk to someone else if someone is around that will respond. 

He doesn't seem too bothered when people don't respond, and if he does, I will just remind him that not everyone wants to talk, go find someone else to interigate! 

I also give him lots of oppertunity to talk to people in settings where I know they will respond - for example, from the time he started talking I'd have him order his own food in restuarants, he calls grandma a few times a week to tell her whatever he wants, he talks to family and friends all the time, asks for books on whatever subject from the library etc.     Just in general he has always had lots of chances to speak - I have him ask people what time it is, or where something is, or verbalize compliments (instead of whispering to me that someone has a cute baby, I encourage him to go say so himself!) 

I do think its weird that MOST kids his age (4-6yrs) still won't even say hi to him.  I've had him talk to people from the time he could talk, and its never been an issue for is. 
 

[leighi123]

I'll also say that planned playdates or classes doesn't = any differences in responses from other kids.  weather its at the playground, or in a class, some kids respond to "hi's" and some don't.  Ds has friends that he will have a playdate with and they never speak a word in 3 hours of playing.  He has other friends that talk (almost) as much as he does.   He's found the same on the playground and with neighborhood kids, weather its kids he sees every single day or once a week or less.  Doesn't matter.  

He is also a homeschooler, with adults a LOT of the time, but also with kids of all ages plenty too, he is social with all ages.  

[Asiago]

"Some children just lack social skills", that was my ped's reply regarding the same subject (lack of greeting response). After the stranger anxiety phase my son made quite a change and began to greet every child and adult, I was baffled by the lack of response by children and inquired with the ped (a developmental specialist). From my reading it seems that most children are capable of responding, I suppose whether a wave or a simple 'hi', between the ages of 36 months and 42 months to most greetings. Oddly enough though, most children do not return the greeting in passing.

Clearly some have legitimate reasons, such as stranger anxiety, and of course we cannot expect a response from every encounter, but it does seem so odd that so few children respond.

[forestmushroom]

The suggestions for playschool/preschool are made because the child seems worried or saddened by the lack of response. Preschool will help because then the child will have more experience with the same group of children with a variety of responses (positive and negative) but will learn that just because someone doesn't respond right away/is slow to warm up it doesn't mean that they mean to cause harm and she will learn to roll with it.

Secondly her desire to build friendships will be met. And the OP already responded that her DD will start a Montessori preschool in the fall, which is awesome since Montessori focuses on grace and courtesy. 

Sure it may not change the other kids on the playground, but she will probably not be upset by the lack of response.

I know some children do fine seeing friends occasionally, or on the playground.  But my children really benefit from seeing the same kids every day to really build relationships and practice their skills.

[LilyKay]

I do not believe that not being responded to will stiffle her social development in anyway, especially if she has good social relationships with other kids. The only thing it does is fine tune her social skills and develop them further.

I know it is hard to watch but whenever I see my daughter struggle, I keep reminding myself that "no challenges and difficulties, no learning." She has to fall, to make mistakes, and to mess up to learn. There is no other way to get through life.

I am suddenly reminded of a couple of male-friends, who are quite charming and smooth in chatting up women. They both told me it took a lot of getting rejected and ignored to get there...

[GoBecGo]

I'm in the UK so bear it in mind (might be a different cultural setting i guess).

My DDs are 6 and 2.  My 6yo is and has mostly been very chatty, my 2yo so far is by comparison rather shy.  I think kids don't read social cues well, and i think they KNOW they don't.  Which is why some kids will chat to anyone without any apparent boundaries/filters (my eldest frequently started conversations with the addicts and prostitutes working near our home when i was a single parent, and it wasn't always wise of her or easy for me to extricate us!), and some won't chat to ANYONE, even people they've actually met and talked to before.

I cannot think of anywhere that adults would model what is been described as the normal or desirable behaviour between kids in playgrounds on this thread.  There is nowhere where it is appropriate to walk up to a stranger who is not part of a group you might be with and say "Hi, my name is such-and-such, what's yours?", and nowhere where you would expect to get a positive (or even neutral) response 100% of the time if you did.  Not the cinema, the bowling, the gym, the bus, nowhere i can think of.  People DO greet and talk to one another, but usually to comment on something that is happening (you might say "wow, this bus has been stopped ages, do you think it's broken down?" but you wouldn't say "hi, we're on the bus with you today") or because you're somewhere with a shared interest (you might say "Hey, i'm Bec, i'm knitting a cardigan for my LO, due in January" at the stitch n bitch, you wouldn't say it to the lady behind you in the bank queue (unless she for some reason was ALSO knitting in the bank queue).  Even when adults WANT to meet strangers they most often attend groups, classes or go to a singles night or speed dating even to do so (depending on what sort of thing they're looking for).  Adults also often use alcohol as a social lubrication in situations where it is deemed appropriate to meet and greet total strangers to spend frivolous social time with.

So back to the kids.  My 6yo just did her first year at school, she's really sociable and polite (and has been given 2 in-front-of-school callouts at assembly to be given "...is a good friend and has lovely manners" awards) BUT she has had MAJOR issues with another girl who just doesn't take no for an answer.  This girl really likes DD, but she has no interest in whether DD feels like playing on a given day or not.  She MUST play, because the other girl wants her to.  The other girl is devastated when DD wants to play with one of her other friends (and we have a list of 9 "best" friends DD did this year spontaneously to show off her hand writing) and feels totally hurt and rejected and will scream "you're not my friend anymore" or "i'm so angry, you can't come to my birthday party" (they are 5 and 6 please bear in mind), something which kills DD, who might just have happened to want to play Tigers instead of Princesses that morning.  She has spent many a night crying at how painful it is that this girl controls what she does and cries whenever DD tries to do what she wants to do, and we have been in and out of school talking to the head mistress and teachers to try to help them work it out (DD is not the only girl to have had these issues).  She, my sociable 6yo, has even begun to ignore this girl at times, because once she says "hi" in the morning, literally immediately the other girl will take her hand and that is it for the day, if DD dares to speak to or play with anyone else there are fireworks.

This interaction has made my DD much more wary of talking to keen-seeming strangers, which is a shame on the one hand, i agree, but i also think it's something she needs to figure out.  Sometimes it IS a bad idea to engage with every person who just comes wandering up to say Hi, and sometimes it isn't.  I'm pretty sure it was only through a childhood of being ignored, pestered and making good friends that i figured that one out.  When people are antisocial with my DD's i say "well maybe they just don't feel like talking today" "they're in a quiet mood", "maybe they're tired" "i don't know why they don't want to talk, they just don't feel like it"...  I just make sure she knows it's not a rejection of HER but of social interaction with someone they don't know at all, it's nothing to do with her as a person.  This perspective, for our family, is the healthiest.

[serenbat]

I cannot think of anywhere that adults would model what is been described as the normal or desirable behaviour between kids in playgrounds on this thread.  There is nowhere where it is appropriate to walk up to a stranger who is not part of a group you might be with and say "Hi, my name is such-and-such, what's yours?", and nowhere where you would expect to get a positive (or even neutral) response 100% of the time if you did. 

sorry you can't but I can- it is common practice (curtsey) to introduce yourself to perfect strangers at MANY adult events: church/synagogues, social functions, civic club meeting, town councils (halls)- some adults even wear name badges. I have been to numerous business functions were it is required to do so, business chapter (chamber) meetings (local economic business groups, historical societies. etc),it is also very common at museums, sporting meets- most of the time you do not know these people- that is how you get to know them. Many function (at least here in the US where I live) you interact with people you don't know all the time. I have been to many events where even if a group is hosting it, you know no one there from previous group events. I am introduced in so many day to day setting with strangers, the guy who works on my car at the dealership introduces himself, the clerk at many stores do the same,banks, we were approached by the people sitting next to us at a cafe, the people that put their blanket next to us at the beach, it happens all the time-perfect strangers and the do ask your name! I am asked my name almost 100% of the time when I talk to strangers over the phone.

We attended two local events this weekend (in no way a "group" things at all) and adults did introduce themselves to other adults. Strangers to strangers!

It is actively encouraged for children from a small age to greet others and state your name and ask when you introduce - (Daisy Girl Scouts start at the K level-scout groups interact with others the don't know all the time-even with adults)- to think it is some how this rare thing and that children do not see it happening with adults and magically at say 5 they are requested to do so is just unbelievable.

Sure it may not change the other kids on the playground, but she will probably not be upset by the lack of response.

to some this just adds more confusion (I know it does for mine)

ETA- you can hardly go out to eat without knowing your servers name and they always seem to ask my DS his name-the cashier at the local grocery stores does, it goes on and on, so adults ask his name so he thinks this is normal!

Edited by serenbat - 7/10/12 at 6:45am

[forestmushroom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

sorry you can't but I can- it is common practice (curtsey) to introduce yourself to perfect strangers at MANY adult events: church/synagogues, social functions, civic club meeting, town councils (halls)- some adults even wear name badges. I have been to numerous business functions were it is required to do so, business chapter (chamber) meetings (local economic business groups, historical societies. etc),it is also very common at museums, sporting meets- most of the time you do not know these people- that is how you get to know them. Many function (at least here in the US where I live) you interact with people you don't know all the time. I have been to many events where even if a group is hosting it, you know no one there from previous group events. I am introduced in so many day to day setting with strangers, the guy who works on my car at the dealership introduces himself, the clerk at many stores do the same,banks, we were approached by the people sitting next to us at a cafe, the people that put their blanket next to us at the beach, it happens all the time-perfect strangers and the do ask your name! I am asked my name almost 100% of the time when I talk to strangers over the phone.

We attended two local events this weekend (in no way a "group" things at all) and adults did introduce themselves to other adults. Strangers to strangers!

It is actively encouraged for children from a small age to greet others and state your name and ask when you introduce - (Daisy Girl Scouts start at the K level-scout groups interact with others the don't know all the time-even with adults)- to think it is some how this rare thing and that children do not see it happening with adults and magically at say 5 they are requested to do so is just unbelievable.

to some this just adds more confusion (I know it does for mine)

ETA- you can hardly go out to eat without knowing your servers name and they always seem to ask my DS his name-the cashier at the local grocery stores does, it goes on and on, so adults ask his name so he thinks this is normal!

All of these examples are where adults enter into these situations where they know and expect to interact and are part of a group (business functions, etc.). If you enter a store, ask someone to fix your car, etc. As an adult you get to choose to do these things. Do you get up from your table at a restaurant and go over to another table and say, "Hi my name is Sally, what is your name?" That would be very strange. Your probably usually only speak to people in your group, or the server, etc.

Daisy scouts, etc. these are all groups where children have either agreed to participate... this is different then making all children part of a group simply because they are playing at the same public playground. Many people go to public parks to enjoy the park and be alone. Just because they don't want to play with another child, etc. doesn't make them rude.

If an adult is jogging in a public park and you ran after them asking them their name and other questions, that might be a bit odd as well.

I think children at the farmer's market, etc. even at the park--this is a slightly different situation. And again, children are not simply little adults... some children may learn to pick up on social cues rather quickly, and other children may take more overt instruction. But to assume that parents aren't teaching their children to do this because the child doesn't respond as one would expect is silly assumption.

Children aren't mini adults and their understanding of social groups and whether they are consenting to participate in them differ from adults. Manners are a learned behavior .

[serenbat]

Do you get up from your table at a restaurant and go over to another table and say, "Hi my name is Sally, what is your name?" That would be very strange. Your probably usually only speak to people in your group, or the server, etc.

glad you are on a different coast you really would not like our area- communal dining is not rare- even happens in parks around here and YES people do talk to those strangers around them, happens at open spaces all over my city

by all means never pay to visit the Plain and Fancy restaurant or Brimfield Antique Fare, many place in NYC (up state too I can think of two places we often visit and all sit a one big table) and Philly, most diners this does happen OFTEN as well- it is not odd to go and talk to someone outside of your group/table or server-talking to stranger and you do get asked your name- in fact at some places you would be odd if you didn't talk to others-I consider these place public space-open to the public-same as a park - like in you go to to a public space that is communal and others are around and interaction is extremely common

Why shouldn't children interact with one another in a public space?  Why shouldn't it be a great place to "seek" social interaction?  I'm so confused.  Please explain this to me.

my thoughts exactly - public playground open to all is a bit different (at least to me) vs taking a walk in the woods, yet when you see others you often say "hi" as you pass- happens on streets here too!

I just have a very different view of public spaces and communal interaction- I do see I am not alone in feeling this is rude-I do see older (over 42 months clearly!) where this is now the norm for children

AND I do make sure my child does not trip joggers to talk to them

[The4OfUs]

In adult land (not talking about kids here):  Even as an extremely outgoing person who will chat up anyone I can when I'm out and about, I don't find people who won't *rude* - they're just different than me.  Whether someone responds to something I say or not is not a reflection on me, nor even a reflection on their upbringing or manners.  It's just their comfort level with talking with people they don't know, their fondness of small talk, whether they're having a really crappy hour/day/week/month/life, or any number of other things that could make them not feel like talking.  Despite my desire and enjoyment in connecting with people even on small levels, I do not feel they are under ANY obligation to interact with me at all - that's pretty...I dunno, presumptuous about other people having the same personality/desire for connection/skill set as you?  It might make me a little sad and hope that the person is OK, because I normally get at least a small smile or a head nod or even just eye contact when I greet or talk to someone...but if I don't get that, I don't think they're rude. 

I just don't like the direction this is going labelling people who aren't into public chitchat as rude. 

[serenbat]

I guess there is an "assumption" that when you go to a public place people interact- I can not expect to do laps in my public pool when the facility is not set up for it- it's an open space and everyone is there to interact-not have a solo spot- at the kiddy pool- it's just for kiddies and you are expected to interact with others- like at a public playground-it is not just for one person, so I don't find it odd to expect other to be there and when people are around talking does happen

[forestmushroom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

glad you are on a different coast you really would not like our area- communal dining is not rare- even happens in parks around here and YES people do talk to those strangers around them, happens at open spaces all over my city

by all means never pay to visit the Plain and Fancy restaurant or Brimfield Antique Fare, many place in NYC (up state too I can think of two places we often visit and all sit a one big table) and Philly, most diners this does happen OFTEN as well- it is not odd to go and talk to someone outside of your group/table or server-talking to stranger and you do get asked your name- in fact at some places you would be odd if you didn't talk to others-I consider these place public space-open to the public-same as a park - like in you go to to a public space that is communal and others are around and interaction is extremely common

my thoughts exactly - public playground open to all is a bit different (at least to me) vs taking a walk in the woods, yet when you see others you often say "hi" as you pass- happens on streets here too!

I just have a very different view of public spaces and communal interaction- I do see I am not alone in feeling this is rude-I do see older (over 42 months clearly!) where this is now the norm for children

AND I do make sure my child does not trip joggers to talk to them

Again those are specific kinds of situations where you choose to participate and the context would be completely different. When we go to an open table dinner or food carts where you share a table that is a very different social situation then say a restaurant where a couple is having a quiet romantic dinner. Of course we do not assume that we won't interact with others at a farm to table event, etc. 

Two different things, where an adult would know the difference between the two and there is room for both.  Just because I like to have a quiet, private dinner with my husband on occasion or a close friend doesn't mean that I do not also like a large communal dinner at other times. But I don't have to always do one or the other.

And I find this interesting that as someone holding the banner for manners you make a rather rude and personal comment and assumption about my like/dislike of communal dining.

Sometimes communal interaction can allow for more introspection-- like when groups of people do yoga or qigong in the park together. They are not chattering away... And I can accept and allow that sometimes what is happening in the interior space of a child may be more interesting them someone else's need for small talk, whether they are in a public space or not. Again, they aren't small adults but very different.

Originally Posted by The4OfUs 

In adult land (not talking about kids here):  Even as an extremely outgoing person who will chat up anyone I can when I'm out and about, I don't find people who won't *rude* - they're just different than me.  Whether someone responds to something I say or not is not a reflection on me, nor even a reflection on their upbringing or manners.  It's just their comfort level with talking with people they don't know, their fondness of small talk, whether they're having a really crappy hour/day/week/month/life, or any number of other things that could make them not feel like talking.  Despite my desire and enjoyment in connecting with people even on small levels, I do not feel they are under ANY obligation to interact with me at all - that's pretty...I dunno, presumptuous about other people having the same personality/desire for connection/skill set as you?  It might make me a little sad and hope that the person is OK, because I normally get at least a small smile or a head nod or even just eye contact when I greet or talk to someone...but if I don't get that, I don't think they're rude. 

I just don't like the direction this is going labelling people who aren't into public chitchat as rude. 

I agree with this... I think it could be turned around and framed as interrupting being rude. There is a different between a quick "Hi" in passing and having to play with another child, or having to answer questions about your name, etc...

Again, I think it is different for a child who is not being presumptuous by saying hello, etc. But this has gotten waaay off the topic.  The OP even stated she regretted using the word "rude."

[forestmushroom]

Originally Posted by tiqa 

It's responses like this that get me so confused.

It's a playground, a public space.

Why shouldn't children interact with one another in a public space?  Why shouldn't it be a great place to "seek" social interaction?  I'm so confused.  Please explain this to me.

Maybe it's different in different areas, but here about 3/4 of parents have play structures in their backyards.  And there are private play groups as well.  It seems logical to me that a public playground would be the space where children go to gather.  That's what we did when I was young.  You're a kid?  Go to the neighborhood park.  Make some friends.  Have fun.  Be back by dark.  And I'm not even that old.  Now it seems like the majority of kids expect a private play experience at even public playgrounds.  What gives?

I totally agree with you here... but the expectation that every child respond in an adult approved manner is just too high.  My kids are at times weird. I mean, when was the last time you wore an elephant costume to the grocery store?

So yes, playgrounds and public spaces are for new experiences. And it is for social experiences as well... but some children fulfill this by observing other children or performing for other children. Kids interact in radically different ways often then adults. And that is okay and should be allowed.

I had a friend in school who would approach me every morning with his jacket pulled over his head and never spoke to me for months (when I was in Kindergarten ) ... is this social? totally. Did I understand it? at the time, yes.

Was this rude? to an adult, probably. but at the time, it wasn't rude to me...

:)

[KellyandBean]

My 2.5 year old already has inherited my social anxiety and would just stare blankly in shock if another child said hi or worse run to hide in my skirt. She isn't rude she is just a sweet shy little girl. Your girl is extroverted and that is wonderful but not all kids are like that. I would just explain that sometimes kids are shy and then other kid just might not feel like talking right now.

[forestmushroom]

I read this today and instantly thought of this thread!

http://parentingfromscratch.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/things-to-know-about-introverted-children/

2. Introverted kids don’t like small talk (especially with strangers). This does not mean they’re shy. It means: 1) they like to skip meaningless chit chat and just stick to the important stuff, and 2) they like to develop a relationship with someone before they talk about important things. Introverts need to develop a connection with someone before they’ll talk comfortably. There must be a trust that that person will listen, a trust that she’ll understand, a trust that the child will be taken seriously. This leads to being cautious in getting to know new people which looks like “shyness.”

DO: If  you’re introducing your introverted child to a person with whom a relationship is important to develop, aim for creating a connection first. Be the bridge between the friend and the child; when he feels safe, he will come over.

DON’T: Announce introverted children as shy, and don’t make them “perform” small talk. It really does feel like a performance and create stress.

So all the advocates for making children "be polite" are really missing the point. It isn't about manners, but respecting introversion and especially introverted children....

[LitMom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

glad you are on a different coast you really would not like our area- communal dining is not rare- even happens in parks around here and YES people do talk to those strangers around them, happens at open spaces all over my city

by all means never pay to visit the Plain and Fancy restaurant or Brimfield Antique Fare, many place in NYC (up state too I can think of two places we often visit and all sit a one big table) and Philly, most diners this does happen OFTEN as well- it is not odd to go and talk to someone outside of your group/table or server-talking to stranger and you do get asked your name- in fact at some places you would be odd if you didn't talk to others-I consider these place public space-open to the public-same as a park - like in you go to to a public space that is communal and others are around and interaction is extremely common

Now, I encourage my "shy" child to say hello to people and I answer for my kids if another kid is talking to them and they're feeling shy and hiding behind me or not answering. And I'm not saying it would be bad if this were the norm, but I can't figure out where you're going in NYC that you think it *is* the norm... because in my three decades here.... it's not. I can only think of one communal table type restaurant I've ever seen, and people *don't* talk to others outside their group even at that restaurant. I've never had anyone other than homeless-mentally-unstable strangers just walk up to my table and start talking to me in a restaurant anywhere in the Northeast. It is odd behavior. Nor has anyone at any museum just started talking to me or asked me my name unless it was a class or event at the museum. 

Edited by LitMom - 7/31/12 at 8:04am

[MrsGregory]

I grew up in the greater NYC metropolitan area, and as an adult have lived in urban Northern New Jersey, the urban mid-Atlantic and urban central Texas.

I like to talk to people.  As a child I would only speak to adults I knew or strangers that were already conversing with the adults in my group.  I was well-educated regarding "stranger danger";  I knew which strangers I could speak with, and which strangers I should give wide berth to.  There were a few missteps;  on a road trip in the middle of Heartland, USA, a woman said "Hello." to me at a rest stop.  I told her to back off.  I hadn't learned that rest stops in Heartland, USA are one of those places where speaking to strangers might be OK, as long as your parents can see you.  All in all, though, once they were done laughing I think my family was glad I erred on the side of "back off" rather than possibly investigating any candy she had in her van.  (I kid.  I don't think she had candy or a van, but you see my point.)

Anyway, as an adult, I like to talk.  In NJ, I'd turn around and strike up conversation with the folks behind me in line at the Pathmark.  In Virginia I'd try to turn around and strike up conversation with the folks behind me in line at the Kroger, and usually get shut down, I'm assuming due to my thick Yankee accent.  In Texas it takes me 2 hours to get vegetables because Little Miss and I stop every few feet to meet a new friend.  I like to talk, and when I'm out among people, no matter where I am in the USA, I'm looking for other people that like to talk.  I'm looking for signals, a show of interest, a friendly face.  If you don't like to talk, I can tell.  I might chat you up anyway, because I admit it, I am a real dick like that some days.  But usually, if you're giving me the "Please don't even look at me." vibe, chances are I'll smile and just move on.  No harm, no foul. 

Is it not a possibility that the OP's child is learning the same conversation seeking skills that I possess?  Might she not be coming to understand that some people think it's perfectly normal to plop down on a park bench with a bag of Skittles and just start yammering, and some people think this is nearly as bad as walking into another person's home and using their toilet without permission or reason?

I will say, in my experience, in the East we don't "Ma'am" and "Sir" everyone we make eye contact with because frankly, we're not making eye contact.  Heh.

Unless we want to talk.

[Carlin]

tsrlk, I don't think a personal attack is called for, especially as you obviously failed to read much past the first post, on a thread that is many weeks old. It is perfectly fine to address the topic at hand and obviously disagreements are inevitable in a diverse community, but it's an entirely different matter to call someone you've never met rude, and insult their parenting. I'm sure you have a lot to offer this community, but it may be a good idea to go back and read Motherings forum guidelines as to what is acceptable here. 

[tiqa]

Incidentally, that was their first post on Mothering.  Hmm.