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Wondering About Multiples - Page 2  

Poll Results: After reading my post, do you think I could be pregnant with multiples?

 
  • 66% (12)
    No, unless you prove it with an ultrasound
  • 16% (3)
    Possibly Twins
  • 11% (2)
    Possibly Triplets
  • 5% (1)
    Possibly Quads (just to set the husbands mind at ease - I'm not expecting you to vote in this column, but just so you coud give your honest opinion its's here!)
18 Total Votes  
post #21 of 103
Thread Starter 

Guess what!? It's multiples! I just don't know if it's only the two babies we detected down low with distinct heartbeats or if there is one more. We also need to find there difficult to locate posterior placentas. We already found one, at my waist and just the edge of it.

post #22 of 103

With all due respect, given your comment about lopsided-ness and your wondering about TTTS, I think you should get an actual diagnostic ultrasound.  The mortality rates for TTTS are stunningly high.  Speaking from experience, if your babies do have have twin-to-twin, you need to know that as soon as possible to give them a chance.  

 

More generally, the moment you are in a multiples situation, you want to try to get an actual understanding of the plumbing.  Some of the configurations are lower risk than other.  Monozygotic-diamniotic twins are not a low-risk situation.  I'm sure I'm going to be yelled at here for bringing in all sorts of negative vibrations, but someone has to say it.

 

Twin birth is natural.  So are grizzly bears.

post #23 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post

One thing that was never clear to me was the idea that in a singleton delivery, with delayed cord clamping there can be a regulated "back and forth" of blood between baby and placenta to optimize blood volume in the baby. This made me wonder: If you delivered twins with both cords left intact and DID have Acute TTTS, why wouldn't the remedy to that simply be to continue leaving the two cords and placenta all intact, so this "regulation" could occur?

 

Aiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeee.  No.  This isn't right.  TTTS is essentially a condition where, because of the configuration of blood vessels between the twins and the placenta, one twin's heart is basically pumping blood for both of them.  If that sounds romantic, it's not.  In a non-TTTS configuration, enough arteries are anastomosing to arteries and veins to veins that the blood pressures basically cancel out (which is good).  In a TTTS configuration, one twins' arterial (placental) vessels anastamose into the other twin's venous vessels.  The twin who is pumping all the blood (the "donor" twin) is doing too much work for a fetus, will have less amniotic fluid, and will generally result in intrauterine growth restriction.  Meanwhile, the recipient twin has to cope with greatly increased blood pressure, which will increase the strain on her or his heart.

 

So leaving TTTS twins hooked up to their placenta post-birth is not going to help the situation.  Their placental environment is already compromised.  It can only hurt.

 

Hopefully your twins don't have TTTS.  If they do, you need to come to terms with the situation early because many, if not most, TTTS twins who survive are delivered extremely early.  TTTS twins who survive are twins whose mothers have early access to a maternal fetal medicine specialist, who are monitored constantly so that they can be delivered at the first sign of intra-uterine growth restriction, and, most commonly, who have access to a superb NICU.  TTTS is not a "variation of normal" - it is a serious, abnormal condition with mortality rates that should make any mother's or father's blood run ice-cold.  Do not treat it lightly.

 

I recommend that anyone who needs to know more about TTTS, or who requires support, contact The Twin To Twin Transfusion Syndrome Foundation:  http://www.tttsfoundation.org/ .  You will get more and better information from them than from any internet forum.

post #24 of 103

I don't have an opinion but I am praying for you.  I would not try what you are trying but if your guts says go, its a mama's instincts.

 

If it was me, I'd have a plan in place for if I went into labor early (before 35 weeks) or had a problem in labor.  What hospital would I go to, what would I tell them, who would come with, and have a couple AMA forms with the phone number for a lawyer (since you sound worried about that aspect).  That would make me feel better about planning a birth with the additional complications possible from triplets.  

 

 But then I'm not intentionally planning a UC, just prepping in case my baby comes too fast for my HB to happen.  :)

post #25 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SympatheticDad View Post

With all due respect, given your comment about lopsided-ness and your wondering about TTTS, I think you should get an actual diagnostic ultrasound.  The mortality rates for TTTS are stunningly high.  Speaking from experience, if your babies do have have twin-to-twin, you need to know that as soon as possible to give them a chance.  

 

More generally, the moment you are in a multiples situation, you want to try to get an actual understanding of the plumbing.  Some of the configurations are lower risk than other.  Monozygotic-diamniotic twins are not a low-risk situation.  I'm sure I'm going to be yelled at here for bringing in all sorts of negative vibrations, but someone has to say it.

 

Twin birth is natural.  So are grizzly bears.


I respect your perspective as a father, but have to point something out. First of all, there are more ways than ultrasound to notice chronic TTTS. I do not believe, based on my reading of midwifery texts that I have any points of oligohydramnios at this time. Or any points of polyhydramnios. I could spell it out, but essentially the point being that if it's just twins, it's going to be fraternal, given the double ovulation signs I had early on.

 

Not only that, but if there is a third, it has a big amount of water around it, just as the lower, presumably identical one does. Either that or there are only fraternal twins making a lot of water and maybe one more than the other but not to the level of polyhydramnios, which has it's own signs, which are not currently present. Chances are a baby triplet showing TTTS signs at 20 weeks would have a slim chance of making it, no matter what is done. Typically they fail at this stage before viability if they are showing such early trouble. So what's to be done, test now in order to panic and kill the other babies with prolonged mental and emotional stress over the loss? I'm not trying to be aggressive, just very frank.

 

Not only that, but I would not see any nonterminal TTTS signs this early on. If they did develop it later on it would warrant intervention, obviously. And I don't need an ultrasound to figure it out. I don't want to violate their sanctuary without true cause. I will not scan healthy babies to reduce statistical margins of risk. I would expect a sign, symptom, feeling of forboding, anything like that, but so far I'm getting the opposite impression from this pregnancy. Until that changes I will leave them unmolested and happy in their natural environment. It's a quality and sanctity of life issue for me.

post #26 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fayebond View Post

I don't have an opinion but I am praying for you.  I would not try what you are trying but if your guts says go, its a mama's instincts.

 

If it was me, I'd have a plan in place for if I went into labor early (before 35 weeks) or had a problem in labor.  What hospital would I go to, what would I tell them, who would come with, and have a couple AMA forms with the phone number for a lawyer (since you sound worried about that aspect).  That would make me feel better about planning a birth with the additional complications possible from triplets.  

 

 But then I'm not intentionally planning a UC, just prepping in case my baby comes too fast for my HB to happen.  :)


Thanks, I think that's all really good advice.

 

I believe I would be in for a 2 hr drive from my house if I started showing signs of preterm labor and wanted to make it to a hospital of any size. Or, if things were going too fast, I would have to call 911 and request an airlift or something of the sort.

 

Honestly, I think I've got the preterm risk nailed to zero - for me personally. Simply put, I've got all the signs that I'm building a beautiful supply of maternal blood for the babies.

 

Signs that would alert me to impending trouble with preterm birth would include headaches, increased water retention, general feelings of malaise, increasing blood pressure and heart rate, pink toothbrush, urinary tract infections, pain and digestive disturbances, etc. Of course these things can happen once in a while to anyone for a day or two, but it's the patterns of health you want to stay on top of. When you get at all sick when pregnant, ALL of your attention and energy needs to go towards healing, not waiting until the problem escalates into uterine infection, PROM, preterm labor and the like.

 

ETA: I take a lot of proactive steps each day to head off health problems. It would be a long list including daily sun baths, magnesium baths, carrot juice, fish oil, lots of food, superfood powders, protein shakes, organic food, distilled and clean well water... low stress.... etc. AND a kick-ass preconception diet, too!

 

There are some papers I'd love to have on hand beforehand like you mentioned, but ultimately I'm in God's hands and not the best paperwork or connections could save our butts if God didn't provide and protect as He always has.

post #27 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post

Not only that, but I would not see any nonterminal TTTS signs this early on. If they did develop it later on it would warrant intervention, obviously. And I don't need an ultrasound to figure it out. I don't want to violate their sanctuary without true cause. I will not scan healthy babies to reduce statistical margins of risk. I would expect a sign, symptom, feeling of forboding, anything like that, but so far I'm getting the opposite impression from this pregnancy. Until that changes I will leave them unmolested and happy in their natural environment. It's a quality and sanctity of life issue for me.

 

Obviously, it's your pregnancy, so you can make your own decisions.  However, as the father of twins who survived TTTS, I'm compelled to correct what you're saying for the sake of others who are reading this.  Had I believed what you wrote (essentially, that early-stage TTTS is invariably fatal, and you'd surely detect it without ultrasounds anyway, so why bother?) my children would be dead.  Ultrasounds do detect TTTS when the mother doesn't realize it's an issue, and early-stage TTTS can -- sometimes -- be survived with appropriate monitoring and interventions.  Given the mortality rate, however, that is realistically only possible when you know about it.  You can't know about it without gathering proper information.  Diagnostic ultrasounds are the best way to gather information in this situation.

 

My kids and wife were sonogrammed, I'd estimate, more than 50 times throughout their pregnancy.  While I appreciate that you view that as a violation, I assure you that all four of us are overwhelmingly grateful that the technology (and brilliant medical expertise) was available to save their lives.  I respect your decision to not make use of that technology and expertise, but please don't give false information to other mothers implying that they "should' be able to detect this condition through intuition, or that if they should discover they have this condition at 11 weeks (as we did) that it's hopeless.  It's not hopeless.  But taking the proper action requires knowledge, which is different than intuition.

 

I won't engage here again, because I don't want you to think that I'm telling you what to do.  You have the experience of a mom who has, wonderfully, had a number of healthy births.  I would never dismiss that.  I have the experience of a dad who has watched his twins evade death by only a hair's breadth.  I'd suggest that that experience carries its own value as well.

post #28 of 103

I was only going to add regarding the o.p. I am pg w/ my 11th little one.  A lot of the symptoms that you described at the beginning that you thought were "twin" symptoms I experienced this time.   Earlier morning sickness even.  It's just that this is a new pregnancy and each one is a little different.  Although I do remember thinking with my first several children that things went a certain way for us, as I have had more children, I have seen enough variables not to have expectations anymore, and not to think that things will go as I plan.  Measuring ahead, showing earlier, more fatigue, increased appetite, etc...  Are pretty common in moms of many.

 

I also am a member of another forum for mothers with larger than average families.  And we have have ladies with a lot of seemingly twin pregnancies which were truly not.  Even ones where experienced midwives noticed measuring large, palpated and were pretty sure and where they heard more than one heartbeat (this turned out to be an echo).  It's often enough for the midwife to suggest an ultrasound  Sometimes the Mom doesn't believe the ultrasound and sometimes she does.  Some have been surprised when it was birth day to discover it was just one.  I think this is another fairly common experience with grand-multiparity Moms. 

 

I am not trying to downplay your suspicions but don't think you are going to really be at peace until you have an ultrasound, even a non-diagnostic type, just to have a peek.  Then go from there. 

 

My background: I have had nine children in hospital, one at home with Midwife.  Our region is pretty bereft of Midwives here in Canada.  So I have been in both worlds.  I have never had a c-section.  Never needed one, and never had an OB even suggest it to me.  I also have only had uncomplicated pregnancies, I am a healthy woman in my mid-thirties, and have ten beautiful kids at home to show for it.  Good luck to you and God bless you!

post #29 of 103

Are you for real?  As most on this site, all for as natural as possible, however in certain circumstances medical intervention is necessary!!

If you suspect even for a minute, TTTS, why not put your faith in someone who used his god given brains to study hard to become a specialist who could possibly save your babies???

 

The MFM experts have years upon years of training to accomodate HIGH RISK pregnancies and save the lives of many both mothers and babies who would otherwise not make it. 

TTTS is not a low risk scenario and reading a few midwife books, eating healthy isn't going to compensate for such a huge issue.  Just ask the woman whose child was found to have a congenital heart defect requiring immediate surgery after birth if it was caused by nonhealthy eating.  She has NO indications of pregnancy other than a u/s showing major malformations.

 

That's great you eat well, if more people did that, the incidence of many diseases would go down, however it unfortunately isn't the cure all.  I hope that if you truly suspect this and are a legitimate person that you will do what is best for your unborn child/ren
 

post #30 of 103
I'm sorry, but the more I read the more I just can't support this. If you feel that you may have a ttts situation, you need an ultrasound. Eating well and being healthy dont make you a "zero risk" for preterm birth. Even if you went to term, it is really likely that your trips will be low birth weight (most triplets are about 3 1/2 lbs, so even if you are eating super well and gaining extra weight, its unlikely that you are going to have three 6-7 lb kiddos) and need extra attention. You don't want to be two hours away from a hospital when you realize that. I'd just hate to see you make a mistake that you couldn't reverse.

And as far as twin birth being natural, grizzly bears are natural goes- I totally agree. People used to give birth at home to triplets all the time- they also had a much lower survival rate.
post #31 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SympatheticDad View Post

 

Obviously, it's your pregnancy, so you can make your own decisions.  However, as the father of twins who survived TTTS, I'm compelled to correct what you're saying for the sake of others who are reading this.  Had I believed what you wrote (essentially, that early-stage TTTS is invariably fatal, and you'd surely detect it without ultrasounds anyway, so why bother?) my children would be dead.  Ultrasounds do detect TTTS when the mother doesn't realize it's an issue, and early-stage TTTS can -- sometimes -- be survived with appropriate monitoring and interventions.  Given the mortality rate, however, that is realistically only possible when you know about it.  You can't know about it without gathering proper information.  Diagnostic ultrasounds are the best way to gather information in this situation.

 

My kids and wife were sonogrammed, I'd estimate, more than 50 times throughout their pregnancy.  While I appreciate that you view that as a violation, I assure you that all four of us are overwhelmingly grateful that the technology (and brilliant medical expertise) was available to save their lives.  I respect your decision to not make use of that technology and expertise, but please don't give false information to other mothers implying that they "should' be able to detect this condition through intuition, or that if they should discover they have this condition at 11 weeks (as we did) that it's hopeless.  It's not hopeless.  But taking the proper action requires knowledge, which is different than intuition.

 

I won't engage here again, because I don't want you to think that I'm telling you what to do.  You have the experience of a mom who has, wonderfully, had a number of healthy births.  I would never dismiss that.  I have the experience of a dad who has watched his twins evade death by only a hair's breadth.  I'd suggest that that experience carries its own value as well.

 

 

First of all, let me say I appreciate your tone and your story. I double ovulated. We are speculating on a miniscule chance now that I'm carrying triplets, which would be the only way chronic TTTS could even be that remote 5% possibility, because otherwise it's just fraternal twins.

 

Treatment for TTTS is never something I would put someone down for treating but the risks involved basically put the other baby(s) who are not part of the TTTS at serious risk and if it's treated so early the chances are very poor. The medical procedures involved have been known to cause the loss of the entire pregnancy, have they not? The stress of the risks of the procedures and the sad diagnosis alone could do that. The studies are out there firmly linking maternal stress to poor fetal outcomes.

 

I also question the mainstream explanation of why TTTS occurs. Would it really occur in healthy infants? The point is not to withhold treatment from babies, but if you are healthy in every way and building a mammoth blood supply both babies should be adequately nourished, particularly if the periconception period was as ideal as mine, limiting the risk of incomplete divisions. I believe it is an improbable story that this happens to healthy babies and mothers. Given the widespread disease, forced water treatment of cities and bad habits of the population there's no way to tease apart the tiny group at risk to do a good investigation at this time.

 

This is all cost vs benefit analysis to me. What's the cost of doing it vs the potential benefit of treatment? Treatment and even testing comes with no small level of risk, some of which risk knowledge is withheld, aka not informed consent. You can't give informed consent to a procedure with an unknown risk profile if you don't even know what if any risks there are because technology and technicians vary from location to location. It's not uniform technology or application and the risks are not being studied for any of it.

 

All of us who scan and only find normal babies may one day find out that we've caused cancer in our 30-something children for naught, or defects in our grandchildren. This is something I don't want to lie awake at night and think about. Blame the medical monopoly for not being more forthcoming if you want. Don't blame the mothers who choose not to scan for small risk margins with no signs of trouble to count on.

 

What if you had to scan for TTTS through CAT scans (known risks) or other forms of high radiation? That's how I feel about ultrasounds. Until I know enough to lay those concerns aside.

post #32 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asplendidtime View Post

I was only going to add regarding the o.p. I am pg w/ my 11th little one.  A lot of the symptoms that you described at the beginning that you thought were "twin" symptoms I experienced this time.   Earlier morning sickness even.  It's just that this is a new pregnancy and each one is a little different.  Although I do remember thinking with my first several children that things went a certain way for us, as I have had more children, I have seen enough variables not to have expectations anymore, and not to think that things will go as I plan.  Measuring ahead, showing earlier, more fatigue, increased appetite, etc...  Are pretty common in moms of many.

 

I also am a member of another forum for mothers with larger than average families.  And we have have ladies with a lot of seemingly twin pregnancies which were truly not.  Even ones where experienced midwives noticed measuring large, palpated and were pretty sure and where they heard more than one heartbeat (this turned out to be an echo).  It's often enough for the midwife to suggest an ultrasound  Sometimes the Mom doesn't believe the ultrasound and sometimes she does.  Some have been surprised when it was birth day to discover it was just one.  I think this is another fairly common experience with grand-multiparity Moms. 

 

I am not trying to downplay your suspicions but don't think you are going to really be at peace until you have an ultrasound, even a non-diagnostic type, just to have a peek.  Then go from there. 

 

My background: I have had nine children in hospital, one at home with Midwife.  Our region is pretty bereft of Midwives here in Canada.  So I have been in both worlds.  I have never had a c-section.  Never needed one, and never had an OB even suggest it to me.  I also have only had uncomplicated pregnancies, I am a healthy woman in my mid-thirties, and have ten beautiful kids at home to show for it.  Good luck to you and God bless you!

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful reply and congratulations on your big family!

 

1 out of every 8 pregnancies includes a vanishing twin. How do you know that didn't happen?

 

I'm not in the market to check via ultrasound at this time. I'm really not interested. I need something to motivate me, something other than a belly which is now larger at 20 weeks than any of my other pregnancies, and has at least 2 distinct locations of heartbeats and movement. If I'm wrong, God didn't take a baby away, he just pulled a cosmic prank and I will laugh about it for decades to come, I'm sure! :P

post #33 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpledaisy View Post

Are you for real?  As most on this site, all for as natural as possible, however in certain circumstances medical intervention is necessary!!

If you suspect even for a minute, TTTS, why not put your faith in someone who used his god given brains to study hard to become a specialist who could possibly save your babies???

 

The MFM experts have years upon years of training to accomodate HIGH RISK pregnancies and save the lives of many both mothers and babies who would otherwise not make it. 

TTTS is not a low risk scenario and reading a few midwife books, eating healthy isn't going to compensate for such a huge issue.  Just ask the woman whose child was found to have a congenital heart defect requiring immediate surgery after birth if it was caused by nonhealthy eating.  She has NO indications of pregnancy other than a u/s showing major malformations.

 

That's great you eat well, if more people did that, the incidence of many diseases would go down, however it unfortunately isn't the cure all.  I hope that if you truly suspect this and are a legitimate person that you will do what is best for your unborn child/ren
 

 

I'm as real as any other mom. 5 kids and counting, as they say. I don't disagree with you.

 

What are the chances of TTTS for me? 0% if I am carrying twins because I double ovulated. 5% if triplets. What are the chances of naturally concieved triplets? It only happens 234 times a year. I'm speculating on winning the divine lottery. If even 5% of those natural triplets have TTTS only a dozen of those women of the WHOLE NATION have a problem on their hands. What are the chances of being a "winner" in THAT divine lottery? What are the chances that I'm one of those dozen women this year? You see? Risk vs benefit. It's not there for me.

post #34 of 103

Why wouldn't TTTS occur in healthy mothers and babies?  I fail to see why TTTS would be so exclusive as to not affect a mother or babies who live healthy lifestyles.  

post #35 of 103

TTTS  is serious. Have multiples of any order is not a low risk. Eating healthy and having good thoughts will not compensate for complications of this sort..

 

Yes, one should weigh risks and benefits but US is very low risk procedure compared to others. US does not increase risk of cancer like CT>

 

You are getting advice from books and lay people on the Internet.  May be they are right , maybe not. Why not go and see an expert?

 

No one will force you to do any procedures. Have a consult. Discuss risks and options. Get a second opinion if you wish. Then see what you want to do. If you decide to do nothings, at least you will ready emotionally for what may come.

 

Intuition is wonder full thing but ti is often wrong. I bought many lottery tickets on that "feeling". Hmm. I am still working 9-5.

post #36 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnra View Post

Why wouldn't TTTS occur in healthy mothers and babies?  I fail to see why TTTS would be so exclusive as to not affect a mother or babies who live healthy lifestyles.  

You know why. Because nothing bad ever happens to people who do all the things the right NFL way. eyesroll.gif

I'm an advocate of UC, and if I didnt live so far from a hospital I probably would have had one, but I think this situation would be out of my comfort level, period. Im having my twins at a hospital that doesnt have a NICU and Im paranoid about that. I have a backup plan about where Ill have to go to give birth if I go before 36 weeks. I cant imagine giving birth to multiples 2 hours from the nearest hospital without any medical assistance.
post #37 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post


I also question the mainstream explanation of why TTTS occurs. Would it really occur in healthy infants? The point is not to withhold treatment from babies, but if you are healthy in every way and building a mammoth blood supply both babies should be adequately nourished, particularly if the periconception period was as ideal as mine, limiting the risk of incomplete divisions. I believe it is an improbable story that this happens to healthy babies and mothers. Given the widespread disease, forced water treatment of cities and bad habits of the population there's no way to tease apart the tiny group at risk to do a good investigation at this time.

Do you realize the implication that you are stating? That mothers who have babies that are born with problems are at fault because they weren't healthy enough. That is absurd.
post #38 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post


Do you realize the implication that you are stating? That mothers who have babies that are born with problems are at fault because they weren't healthy enough. That is absurd.


No, I'm not. If I was unhealthy, it wouldn't have to be my fault. I would probably have a gut feeling that something was wrong with me and would feel like seeking help. If it was all I knew, I might think that nobody could feel differently without being crazy. To some people suboptimal health is all they and their community know, sometimes because of factors completely outside of their conscious control.

post #39 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post


You know why. Because nothing bad ever happens to people who do all the things the right NFL way. eyesroll.gif
I'm an advocate of UC, and if I didnt live so far from a hospital I probably would have had one, but I think this situation would be out of my comfort level, period. Im having my twins at a hospital that doesnt have a NICU and Im paranoid about that. I have a backup plan about where Ill have to go to give birth if I go before 36 weeks. I cant imagine giving birth to multiples 2 hours from the nearest hospital without any medical assistance.


If I go past prematurity and go into labor naturally, I wouldn't have time to go to a hospital without exposing myself and the babies to travel hazards, given that my last natural birth was fast, they just keep getting faster each time. I'm not prepared to move closer to a big city during pregnancy just so I can be close to a good hospital when I go into labor. Homebirth for me means I get to go into labor and not give birth on the road, and I don't have to pay a midwife to do a well-baby check after the fact, because chances are she couldn't make it out in time - and I would never want a midwife to attend such a far-out country birth, for her sake.

post #40 of 103
Sounds like you've got it all figured out. What was it you were wanting opinions on?
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