americans pop a lot of pills….

[purslaine]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/09/america-prescription-drug-addiction

Not just Americans - I am sure!

Do you think the heavy use (love) of pharmaceuticals, period, plays a role in the number of vaccines given babies?

I have more to say, family calls.

TIA

Edited by purslaine - 7/14/12 at 2:53pm

[Alenushka]

Pills have nothing to do with vaccines.  IF anythings, with vaccines one needs fewer pills.

This is such fluff piece.  Brits writing about healthy lifestyle? Oh, really? Have they looked din the mirror or the rates of alcoholism.

Alchohol is form of self medication. It is better to take antidepressant than drink like a fish.

Middle class US patients have better access to mental health professionals than average person in England.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Pills have nothing to do with vaccines.  IF anythings, with vaccines one needs fewer pills.

Well, given the low rate of VPD's that is not exactly true.

However, I will change parts of the OP  as I am more interested in discussing  pharmaceuticals (which vaccines are part of ) in general than just pills.  The title will have to remain the same as I cannot edit it - oh, well.

Caveat:  I am fully aware some drugs are necessary and desired. I do not judge individuals who use them or play jury on who should use them.

[purslaine]

dbl post

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

This is such fluff piece.  Brits writing about healthy lifestyle? Oh, really? Have they looked din the mirror or the rates of alcoholism.

Alchohol is form of self medication. It is better to take antidepressant than drink like a fish.

Middle class US patients have better access to mental health professionals than average person in England.

I think it is always controversial when one country looks at problems in another country.  On one hand - who the hell are they to comment?  On another - sometimes they can see patterns we don't as we are in it - or have a different wealth of experience to bring to an issue.

I think the British can write a piece if they want 

They may drink more (I would need to look it up, but I expect it is true) but that does not mean they have more drinking problems or alcoholics.  Even if they do drink more - meh -their life expectancy is higher than the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy  and this article shows them to be healthier overall than Americans.  http://healthomg.com/2011/03/10/americans-have-worse-health-than-english-peers-study-finds/)

I am not overly interested in comparing health in Britain versus America (unless it relates to vaccines).

The point of the Op was to see if people felt there was a connection between a society that seems to really like and use its pharmaceuticals and has a large number of vaccines on its schedule.  

PS:  if you do not like this article, ok.  Find another one.  The internet is full of stories about the high use of pharmaceuticals by Americans.

Edited by purslaine - 7/14/12 at 3:33pm

[rachelsmama]

I think the heavy consumer culture and the love of pharmaceuticals are linked.  Got a drippy nose?  Go buy cold medicine to mask the symptoms.  Not happy?  Go shop.  Still not happy even though you have all the latest fashions?  Go get antidepressants, etc.... Worried about the possibility that the kids might bring home a bug?  Shoot them full of ALL the vaccines.  (Note: I don't object to the thoughtful use of vaccines, but find routine administration of an ever-growing list of vaccines worrisome.)
 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by rachelsmama 

I think the heavy consumer culture and the love of pharmaceuticals are linked.  Got a drippy nose?  Go buy cold medicine to mask the symptoms.  Not happy?  Go shop.  Still not happy even though you have all the latest fashions?  Go get antidepressants, etc.... Worried about the possibility that the kids might bring home a bug?  Shoot them full of ALL the vaccines.  (Note: I don't object to the thoughtful use of vaccines, but find routine administration of an ever-growing list of vaccines worrisome.)
 

You don't have to put it in little letters, lol.

In some ways I am increasingly coming to see some value in some vaccines on a very selective and delayed basis.  Let's face it - not all VPDs are the same, nor are all individuals.  

Now my turn for little letters:  If the vaccine schedule had remained smaller, I may not have questioned vaccines. There were two issues that turned me away from vaxxing way back when - one was the introduction of the second measles vaccines.  The public health nurse told me the second MMR jab was for the 5-10% of the population for whom the first shot did not take.    I was supposed to  put my child through a shot, risk adverse side effects - for what?  Diseases that were uncommon and he had a 90-95% chance of being covered for anyways?

I agree the ever growing list is worrisome.  

In addition to consumer culture (or perhaps as part of it?) is the whole work-world thing.  One of the justifications for giving such vaccines as CP is that parents cannot afford to take time off of work.  Vaccines should be medical decisions - work concerns (in an ideal world) should not play a part in it.  Kids get sick and parents should be given time off work to care for them.

Edited by purslaine - 7/14/12 at 5:19pm

[RachaelM]

Great point about being able to observe patterns when we are in outside of them. I found it really opened my eyes when I moved to the USA (from UK) and first saw the way things are done there, compared to here. Then over time I saw how weird some of my own culture was. On moving back it's opened my eyes even more to our differences, good and bad. 

On the subject of pills and vaccines I did find the US was much more heavy on them both (chickenpox??? what!) - what was strange to me was seeing all the ads on tv there, with brand names for medications and "ask your doctor about XYZ today!". Here because of public healthcare, we don't use brand names for medication apart from a few famous over-the-counter ones like Calpol or Nurofen (paracetamol here is tylenol there, and it took me ages to figure it out as no one seemed to know!). Either way though, it's not hugely different, I still see way too many people relying on pills for every little problem on both sides of the pond. Even if the UK is less so, it's still a significant health problem in my eyes. I think in the USA, because you are buying a service from your doctor, if you go in and demand a certain pill they will give it to you, whereas here it's up to their diagnosis (which is a good and a bad thing sometimes).

I think there's one big obvious thing here and it's the money trail. 

Is there money in creating vaccines that "prevent" diseases while at the same time damaging more of the body but in ways that won't be seen for years...there sure is. 

Is there money in marketing pills that get rid of a headache in 5 minutes, but cause liver damage with repeated use...sure is! Cause hey, liver damage, we've got medicine for that too!

From my experience the USA is a lot heavier on the consumer culture but again, the UK is not far behind and doing it's darned best to catch up!

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by RachaelM 

Is there money in marketing pills that get rid of a headache in 5 minutes, but cause liver damage with repeated use...sure is! Cause hey, liver damage, we've got medicine for that too!

Yes.  And if the chicken pox vaccines causes a spike in shingles -well, we have a vaccine for that!

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Originally Posted by RachaelM 

Is there money in marketing pills that get rid of a headache in 5 minutes, but cause liver damage with repeated use...sure is! Cause hey, liver damage, we've got medicine for that too!

Yes.  And if the chicken pox vaccines causes a spike in shingles -well, we have a vaccine for that!

I thought this parody of "The Old Woman Who Swallowed a Fly" was hilarious ode to our pill popping society

The Old Woman Who Swallowed a Pill

[Alenushka]

Chicken pox causes shingles not the vaccine. Vaccine prevents shingles later on.

Shingles vaccine is for older people who had CP as kids

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Chicken pox causes shingles not the vaccine. Vaccine prevents shingles later on.

Shingles vaccine is for older people who had CP as kids

The chickenpox vaccine contains the live virus. Shingles has become more common in kids, at the same time that chickenpox cases have fallen in kids due to the vaccine. There are children who get shingles who have gotten the chickenpox vaccine, but not chickenpox. In those cases, of course the vaccine caused shingles.

People with stronger immunity to chickenpox are better protected from shingles than those who have the virus in their body but weaker immunity. The chickenpox vaccine produces a weaker immunity than the actual disease. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Chicken pox causes shingles not the vaccine. Vaccine prevents shingles later on.

It is thought the chicken pox vaccine is causing a spike in shingles among those who already had chicken pox (which is the vast majority of adolescents and adults)

Once upon a time, people got CP, and then every time they were around CP they experienced an immune response from being near CP.  This immune response helped to keep shingles at bay.

Now, due to the CP vaccine, people are not getting the "immune response" they once had - and shingles is becoming more common and more prevalent among younger people.

Even if the chicken pox vaccine protects against shingles (a big "if") most people adolescent age or higher are now at a higher risk for shingles (a NOT fun disease by all accounts) for what?  Chicken Pox - a disease that is benign for the vast, vast majority of children?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Chicken pox causes shingles not the vaccine. Vaccine prevents shingles later on.

I'm afraid this is not true.

from http://www.webmd.com/vaccines/features/shingles-chickenpox?page=2

"A study by the CDC and other scientists confirmed that since 1993, the incidence of shingles has nearly doubled in the adult U.S. population. One explanation for the increase has to do with the universal vaccination of children against chickenpox. According to this theory, because most children no longer get chickenpox disease (which used to be a ritual of childhood), their parents no longer get the immunological “boost” that comes from being exposed to the virus while caring for sick children."

For the pediatric population, a study reports that shingles decreased amongst vaxed children under 10, but had a greater increase in vaxed children 10-19.  Curiously, the study ignored the increase, and concluded that "Varicella vaccine substantially decreases the risk of herpes zoster among vaccinated children"  because the "increase in herpes zoster incidence among 10- to 19-year-olds could not be confidently explained."  So correlation apparently equals causation when it will sell vaccines,  but not when it won't.

Here is a case report of shingles that was considered to have been induced by vaccination:

http://www.pediatricsconsultant360.com/content/vaccine-induced-herpes-zoster

And the issue of varicella vaccine in children resulting in a shingles epidemic amongst adults:  http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx

[my mountain]

And it goes...

There was an old woman who swallowed a pill,

I don't know why she swallowed that pill.

She swallowed that pill to get rid of her ill.

She got rid of her ill by sitting still....

Etc...

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

because most children no longer get chickenpox disease (which used to be a ritual of childhood), their parents no longer get the immunological “boost” that comes from being exposed to the virus while caring for sick children."

That's why I try to take my kids to chickenpox parties every 5 years or so, and I lick the lollipops too.  As fun as the parties are though, it would be much better if we didn't have to bother with them.

For the pediatric population, a study reports that shingles decreased amongst vaxed children under 10, but had a greater increase in vaxed children 10-19.  Curiously, the study ignored the increase, and concluded that "Varicella vaccine substantially decreases the risk of herpes zoster among vaccinated children"  because the "increase in herpes zoster incidence among 10- to 19-year-olds could not be confidently explained."  So correlation apparently equals causation when it will sell vaccines,  but not when it won't.

Wow. Just wow.